Historic accuracy

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I've just stumble onto the Sengoku announcement, and I am quite intrigued by this project. The Sengoku period is clearly a great setting for a Paradox game, but I can't help but feel somewhat apprehensive about this.

I was one of the people who were very dissappointed by EU3 Divine Wind. DW introduced new mechanics for China and Japan, but these mechanics were completely detached from the historical reality. In my humble opinion, it felt as if PI made no effort at all in being historically accurate. I believe that anyone who knows anything about Chinese/Japanese history would agree that the 3-factions and 4-clans set up had no basis whatsoever in reality.

Anyhow, EU3 was a Eurocentric game, and perhaps botching Asian historicity could be overlooked. But now that they are specifically making a game based in Japan, I really hope that their research department get things right this time.

In the spirit of constructive criticism, here are some of the "problems" I've seen in the released info so far:

- "Play as a Japanese noblemen":
This is very misleading. Japan didn't have a clear definition of nobility, and the closest thing in this period would probably be the kuge, which are court nobility that was not very involved in the military conflict. Sure, one could consider the buke and the samurai class as a whole to be nobility, but the Sengoku period was special precisely because it was a period where the social structure broke down, and non-samurai frequently became samurai on merit. Many famous leaders of this period were not of noble birth in any sense, including local gangsters, ninjas, pirates, monks, merchants, peasants, etc., and some of them managed to reach the highest position (e.g. Toyotomi).

- "eventual goal of uniting the fractured nation under one Shogun"
This is a common western misconception: Japan does not require a Shogun to be united, it's real control that counts, not the title. Nobunaga clearly intended to conquer all of Japan, but he scorned Shogunhood, whereas Toyotomi ruled Japan as Kampaku and Taiko. Indeed, Shogun was traditionally (though not strictly) reserved for the Minamoto lineage. Kampaku and Daijodaijin were both of equivalent rank to Shogun, more accessible to a ruler of Fujiwara or other lineages.

- "foreign factions", "Christians or the Buddhists?"
There is not a lot of info here yet, but I hope Paradox did not neglect the fact that there are more than one kind of "foreigner" and "Buddhists". Portuguese and Dutch traders were in competition in Japan, and Jodo ikko sects were politically very distinct from other Buddhist sects.

- "Double cross your enemies in an honorable an auspicious manner"
I thought you can only double cross your ally?
But seriously, people can't shut up about "honor" when they talk about samurai. But there was no such thing as honor between two unrelated clans. If there's no family ties, then there was no dishonor in betrayal. Even when there is family ties, the Sengoku ethics was very loose. Basically, the modern idea of "honor" was largely a later development.

- Character art
In the few screenshots released so far, none of the characters look properly Sengoku. Samurai shave the middle of their head upon adulthood, and unshaved heads was stereotypically ronin or some kind of maverick. The same goes for female characters, especially since they are "noble" ladies. Of course, Paradox can take some artistic license with the many characters, but it's a bit disturbing when none of the characters look remotely "correct".

- Ninye? (from the interview video)
Okay, this is a very minor gripe. I know in Swedish, "ninja" sounds like "ninye", but it does not give confidence to your research effort if you can't pronounce this word more-or-less correctly.

Anyway. I don't expect Sengoku to be perfectly accurate, and I'm all for abstraction for the sake of gameplay. But since they ARE making a game based on real historic events, I just think they should at least have a proper historic foundation.

Seriously, this is thoroughly pedantic. But these are the paradox forums afterall.

Paradox doesn't have a very good track record on Asia for the most part, so let's hope they get it right this time. From the SS, Sengoku looks fantastic.

I have high hopes for Sengoku to be frank, since Koei decided to drop most of their great strategy titles to concentrate on silly button mashers (and the worst character re-imaginings). Paradox is the only company out there making decent Strategy titles with depth and quite fun to be honest. (just don't nickel and dime the fans please)

So after Sengoku, I really hope that Paradox will make a decent Three Kingdoms game. (I know 1.3 billion fans who'll buy it ;p)

 

[Drakken]

Since there are no other high-ranked government positions to claim other than Shogun, a feature like this wouldn't be all that useful anyway. (and yes, I know that Toyotomi Hideyoshi technically never could claim that title, but he still acted as one, and this restriction is something we have choosen not to include.)

Oh yes, he could. That "common knowledge" is in fact incorrect. All he needed to do was to be adopted into the Minamoto line and wish for it. The title of shogun had also been offered to Nobunaga, even if he was an avowed descendent of the Taira clan, and very vocal about it, sometimes signing "Taira no Nobunaga". The court at the time was very, very, very pliant and would have found ways to accomodate whoever was the current hegemon.

If Hideyoshi, at the height of his power, had said "I will claim the title of shogun and establish a new bakufu", no one would have been able to stop him. Ways would have been found.

The reason why Hideyoshi didn't take the office of shogun is because it was still stained by the reputation of the Ashikaga predecessors. Ashikaga Yoshiaki was still alive, in exile but still technically shogun, or at least with a claim to the shogunate enough that potential rivals could use as a focus point. He died only in 1597, one year before Hideyoshi. Plus Hideyoshi wanted to make it clear that he would rule inside the Imperial court system, and thus it was better advised for him to request the title of Kanpaku instead to coopt a class that he had no connection with. Finally, the Toyotomi future wasn't secure. The remnants of the Oda clan was still being a faction inside the clan, most of their retainers were loyal to Hideyoshi the man rather than the clan itself, and the only heir to Hideyoshi was his nephew Hidetsugu until he (or someone else) finally procreated with Yodo-gimi and he got rid of his meddlesome nephew who was getting more and more on Hiedyoshi's nerves.

 

[Tatsunoshi]

The title of "kanpaku" (or kampaku, if you prefer) actually conferred a much higher status upon its holder than Shogun, which is why Hideyoshi wanted it. He and his son were the only members of the bushi class to hold the office-all of the other holders over the centuries were court nobles, mostly descended from five families. He could have easily had himself named Shogun by creating a false lineage, much as Tokugawa Ieyasu did, but went for the higher status. Similarly, the first permanent Shogun Minamoto no Yoritomo always preferred to be known by his Court title rather than his title of Shogun-he never signed any document or letter using the Shogun title. And don't forget, because of Hideyoshi's humble beginnings as a peasant, he craved status-Kanpaku and later, Taiko (retired Kanpaku), were the ultimate for him. He even arranged for his mother, a produce peddler, to be awarded court rank and sit at the Imperial Court (which by all accounts she hated doing). Hideyoshi saw himself as the Sengoku version of Taira no Kiyomori, who was the last man in Japan to combine military hegemony with a high position in court.

By the way, Drakken, virtually every samurai would sign a document at some point as Taira, Minamoto, Fujiwara, or Tachibana. These were the "Genpei Toukitsu" (源平藤橘), the four famous clans where every warrior supposedly had an ancestor in at least one (and this was probably true, given the amount of political marriages). This concept is used a lot in Japanese board wargames that cover several centuries. I've heard people complained about this in Europa Universalis Divine Wind, but it's actually a good way for a game of that scale to keep things somewhat timely and accurate.

 

[Tatsunoshi]

Wasn't it Nobunaga who said no?

Nobunaga continually stalled the Imperial Court (and also Ashikaga Yoshiaki when he tried to make him vice-shogun) when they hinted at offering him Shogun. He didn't want the position of Shogun, because that would define him and put limits on his power. Nobunaga had a whole new polity in mind, and it didn't involve restricting himself with a traditional office. What would he have ended up doing? Well, the Jesuits claimed that he had set himself up as a 'living god to be worshipped' after Azuchi was built, so it looks like he had something grand in mind...