Historical Inaccuracy In The Levant Region

[Proper_History]

Why doesn't Palestine gain its own Flag (Of red, black, white, and green) after becoming independent from the UK? Instead it retains its colonial British flag. Any chance the devs can work this out please?

Letter to any concerned dev:
To whom it may concern,
Paradox Interactive, since its founding, has always strived for historical accuracy within all its history-based games. Hearts of Iron IV is no exception. Yet even with all of HOI 4's factually correct events and intricate gameplay, there remains a single blaring historical inaccuracy that cannot be overlooked. In the Levant region, which at the start of the game is occupied by the UK and France, minor nations are able to eventually gain independence from colonial rule and have their own playthroughs. Yet even should Palestine gain independence from the UK it remains to be called "Mandate Palestine" and continues to hold the colonial British flag rather than its official flag of red, black, white, and green. Even more ironically the game does include the nation "Israel" with its emblem even when it too is partially recognised and remains unrecognised by almost 30 sovereign states. That is why I hope that Paradox Interactive would consider making 2 simple changes that require the most basic form of code editing. So that "Mandate Palestine" may gain its official name upon independence and its official flag and emblem just like any other state within the game.
Thank you for your time,
Proper_History

 

[Eisscrat]

There is no state of palestine so there cant be an official flag.

 

[Proper_History]

There is no state of palestine so there cant be an official flag.

There is. It is recognized by the UN and 147 sovereign states, including mine.

 

[Eisscrat]

What is the capital who is the goverment?
When were the last elections?

 

[Proper_History]

What is the capital who is the goverment?
When were the last elections?

The internationally recognized capital is East Jerusalem but as that was illegally annexed in 1967 by Israel (a war crime under international law) the de facto capital since has been Ramallah. The current internationally recognized government is the Palestinian Authority run by the Fatah Party (Founded in 1957). The last elections were in 2022 taking place across 154 locations. Now, if you please, the purpose of this thread is to see if the developers can provide the correct Palestinian flag within HOI IV. It was not created to debate the legality of Palestine, which has already been decided by the UN; the most credible and reputable of international organizations. Thus kindly refrain from any further comments that are not relevant to the topic.

 

[Eisscrat]

So the gaza strip is not part of palestine? There the hamas is in power.
Abd according to wikipedia the last elections were in 2006.

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

Let's remember that the Code of Conduct lists the following as Inappropriate Content:

• Real-world Politics or events when not present in the game

My suspicion is that the literal answer to OP's first question is that the Levant has never been the focus of a patch/DLC cycle. A much bigger issue is the fact that Egypt is completely missing at game start and is represented as an integral part of the UK's territory. The whole region needs some love, but it needs a DLC to fund it.

The relevant Wikipedia article says that this flag was in widespread use during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39. So it seems a reasonable suggestion to have the flag change at independence (that would be a cosmetic tag, right?). However, I'd be concerned about how you would tell it apart from the flag of Jordan. The only difference is the white star, which is almost invisible even at the deepest zoom level, and a single pixel or less at shallower levels. The flag of Iraq is also very similar, but the red quadrilateral at the hoist is an isosceles trapezium rather than a triangle, which gives you a few more pixels to play with. I think this is a real problem for your proposal.

 

[LastButterfly]

I'd be concerned about how you would tell it apart from the flag of Jordan. The only difference is the white star, which is almost invisible even at the deepest zoom level

The mini-flags (those next to divisions deployed on the field) of Australia and New Zealand are far too small to tell them appart. Same thing for telling some chinese warlords appart and, depending on your monitor, Luxembourg and the Netherlands can have the same effect. The game is no stranger to indinstinguishable flags.

Paradox Interactive, since its founding, has always strived for historical accuracy within all its history-based games. Hearts of Iron IV is no exception.

Debatable.

 

[fanta_a]

As there have never been a "palestinian" state, and the fact that after the 48 war, arab nations "kept" the territory they controlled, speaks volumes alone, including it here would be silly.

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

As there have never been a "palestinian" state, and the fact that after the 48 war, arab nations "kept" the territory they controlled, speaks volumes alone, including it here would be silly.

This is a poor argument for two reasons. Firstly, you have a false premise, because independent Palestine is already included in the game and is seen fairly often in alt-history games. Secondly, HoI4 is awash with alt-history content. I think an Arab Palestinian state is a lot more plausible than the restoration of Al-Andalus or German East Asia! But it seems unlikely that an Arab-led Palestine, or even a bi-communal one-state solution, would retain the Union Jack. The one thing that pretty much everybody in 1930s Palestine agreed on was that they hated the British!

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

I think this is an oversight from the devs that the "PAL_mandate" colonial tag does not removed when Palestine gets its independence, as i remember that INS which got "Dutch East Indies" did got their colonial name removed before GoE came out. But after checking on the game's vanilla files......

As you can see on the left tab, apparently the devs commented out (giving # before a code entry in a line) this action when Graveyard of Empires's patch (Countenance) goes online, and this is still there even now. In the right tab is the setup of Palestine tag in the game, giving the country its own colony tag. Before Countenance, everytime the listed countries (CAN, RAJ, MAL, INS) goes independent, they would also shed off their own colonial tag given in their setup file just like in the right tab.

The obvious thing the devs can do is to delete the # in the code, as simple as that, and nothing else insinuated like the first replier of this thread did. I hope the devs would reimplement this, @Proper_History, as Indonesia (INS) nowadays also did not shed their colonial tag off upon becoming independent through the autonomy system.

 

[DaddySugar331]

Paradox Interactive, since its founding, has always strived for historical accuracy within all its history-based games

Excuse me?

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

Excuse me?

He meant by historical plausibility.

Tbh i prefer "plausibility" over "realism" when discussing alternative history.

 

[Proper_History]

Let's remember that the Code of Conduct lists the following as Inappropriate Content:


My suspicion is that the literal answer to OP's first question is that the Levant has never been the focus of a patch/DLC cycle. A much bigger issue is the fact that Egypt is completely missing at game start and is represented as an integral part of the UK's territory. The whole region needs some love, but it needs a DLC to fund it.

The relevant Wikipedia article says that this flag was in widespread use during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39. So it seems a reasonable suggestion to have the flag change at independence (that would be a cosmetic tag, right?). However, I'd be concerned about how you would tell it apart from the flag of Jordan. The only difference is the white star, which is almost invisible even at the deepest zoom level, and a single pixel or less at shallower levels. The flag of Iraq is also very similar, but the red quadrilateral at the hoist is an isosceles trapezium rather than a triangle, which gives you a few more pixels to play with. I think this is a real problem for your proposal.

I do agree that the region does need a heavy rework but since that does not seem on the horizon, at least for now, I think that this minor detail would go a long way in improving the gameplay for the region. Yes, it would be cosmetic, but it signifies Palestine's independence as an in-game symbol. In terms of its similarity with the flag of Jordan and Iraq well the difference geographically would easily show you who's who. Also, the devs could enlargen the star ("stars" for Iraq) to make them more visible; setting apart the flags.

 

[Proper_History]

I think this is an oversight from the devs that the "PAL_mandate" colonial tag does not removed when Palestine gets its independence, as i remember that INS which got "Dutch East Indies" did got their colonial name removed before GoE came out. But after checking on the game's vanilla files......

View attachment 1330165​

As you can see on the left tab, apparently the devs commented out (giving # before a code entry in a line) this action when Graveyard of Empires's patch (Countenance) goes online, and this is still there even now. In the right tab is the setup of Palestine tag in the game, giving the country its own colony tag. Before Countenance, everytime the listed countries (CAN, RAJ, MAL, INS) goes independent, they would also shed off their own colonial tag given in their setup file just like in the right tab.

The obvious thing the devs can do is to delete the # in the code, as simple as that, and nothing else insinuated like the first replier of this thread did. I hope the devs would reimplement this, @Proper_History, as Indonesia (INS) nowadays also did not shed their colonial tag off upon becoming independent through the autonomy system.

So what you are basically saying is that it would take the deletion of only 1 character by the devs in order for Palestine to shed its colonial name post-independence? I had no idea it was that simple. And thank you for your effort in discovering this.

 

[Proper_History]

The game is no stranger to indinstinguishable flags.

But still, the difference between the official Palestinian flag and the colonial British flag is unavoidable. And it would make a large difference in portraying Palestine's independence.

 

[Proper_History]

@fanta_a. As I have previously informed "Eisscrat", Palestine is a sovereign state recognized by 147 reputable nations worldwide and the United Nations. Whether or not the state is partially occupied by an external force is a moot point. I do not understand what you mean by "The arabian states keeping the territory they controlled" nor its relevance to the topic of how a Palestinian embelm could be implemented in HOI4. Please do not repeat the mistake of "Eisscrat" in-going off topic.

 

[Emoneh]

I think this is an oversight from the devs that the "PAL_mandate" colonial tag does not removed when Palestine gets its independence, as i remember that INS which got "Dutch East Indies" did got their colonial name removed before GoE came out. But after checking on the game's vanilla files......

View attachment 1330165​

As you can see on the left tab, apparently the devs commented out (giving # before a code entry in a line) this action when Graveyard of Empires's patch (Countenance) goes online, and this is still there even now. In the right tab is the setup of Palestine tag in the game, giving the country its own colony tag. Before Countenance, everytime the listed countries (CAN, RAJ, MAL, INS) goes independent, they would also shed off their own colonial tag given in their setup file just like in the right tab.

The obvious thing the devs can do is to delete the # in the code, as simple as that, and nothing else insinuated like the first replier of this thread did. I hope the devs would reimplement this, @Proper_History, as Indonesia (INS) nowadays also did not shed their colonial tag off upon becoming independent through the autonomy system.

It's actually a little more knotty than that. The next IF clause makes *any* country other than Communist South Africa will lose its cosmetic tag when becoming independent (so yes, OP has made up a 100% fictional problem to get angry over). I would imagine this is a mistake & it should only apply to non-Communist South Africa, not every other country as well. I filed a bug report about a few months ago... no response.

The abandon_colony_tag scripted effect is also a bit funny. I haven't tested it but I would assume that the first half never triggers since this would be applied after a country is already independent. The second half does drop cosmetic tag but only if you don't have GoE for some reason (or have unified Polynesia or Malaysia). Not quite sure what to make of it. Possibly that SAF thing above is masking any problems from testing.

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

It's actually a little more knotty than that. The next IF clause makes *any* country other than Communist South Africa will lose its cosmetic tag when becoming independent (so yes, OP has made up a 100% fictional problem to get angry over). I would imagine this is a mistake & it should only apply to non-Communist South Africa, not every other country as well. I filed a bug report about a few months ago... no response.

View attachment 1330208

The abandon_colony_tag scripted effect is also a bit funny. I haven't tested it but I would assume that the first half never triggers since this would be applied after a country is already independent. The second half does drop cosmetic tag but only if you don't have GoE for some reason (or have unified Polynesia or Malaysia). Not quite sure what to make of it. Possibly that SAF thing above is masking any problems from testing.

View attachment 1330209

Weh?

Can you show us the "drop_cosmetic_tag" scripted effect then? I'm already afk.

 

[Emoneh]

Weh?

Can you show us the "drop_cosmetic_tag" scripted effect then? I'm already afk.

That's not a scripted effect I don't think, it's hard coded & just removes the country's cosmetic tag, if any.