Historical Information

[Steel]

I'm not assuming anything about TV shows, merely making an observation on a subject I'm not qualified to comment on since I only have second-hand info

Every source ever published contains inaccuracies, however I'm comfortable using any text which lists the sources used. The book I'm currently reading has a "select bibliography" of almost 300 sources and several pages worth of errata (published on the Internet by the author). That allows me to verify information by checking other sources, checking the errata and also by finding sources which criticise my primary source.

I'm perhaps in an unusual position because I am not living in my country of birth. Because of this I've been exposed to two different belief systems, one of a neutral country and another of a primary combatant. Believe me when I say that the history books differ! I'm constantly shocked and amazed at what I personally consider a pack of lies that is fed to people in school.

About the greatest maritime disaster, this is judged by loss of life and divided into peacetime and wartime. My question to my friends referred to both categories. All of them answered "Titanic" or "Titanic - the movie!".

I've used several printed and online sources for the following. Format is death toll, year, ship name. Death toll is estimated in some cases (Goya, Steuben, Lancastria, Neptune).

9343  1945  Wilhelm Gustloff (wartime)
7000  1945  Goya (wartime)
4386  1987  Doa Paz (peacetime)
3000  1945  General von Steuben (wartime)
2500  1940  Lancastria (wartime)
1700  1993  Neptune (peacetime)
1503  1912  Titanic (peacetime)
1024  1914  Empress of Ireland (peacetime)

For the Wilhelm Gustloff, I have used the numbers provided by Schön - he was on the ship that night. The lowest estimate I've seen was "at least 5400 dead", that's from a revisionist history website which I don't personally credit as very trustworthy.


EDIT: I was meaning to mention the Thielbek and Cap Arcona as well. The sinking of these two ships doesn't seem to be very well documented, but there is a few web sites that refer to the subject and the appears to be at least one German movie as well. Look it up if you like, it's not a nice subject and as I can't verify the sources I didn't include it in the list. BTW, the Bismarck probably qualifies for the list as well but I didn't want to include carriers, battleships etc, disaster => primarily civilian losses in this case.

 

[Indiana]

You make some good points but you must also realize that no matter where you go or where you live that events will be 'slanted' in one particular direction or another depending on the source, location, country and the motivation behind it. This is also less likely to happen in a free society than others because of the obvious.

The best thing to do in that case is to take in all information you run across and decide on 'facts' for yourself but that still means you have your 'own slant' on events. Even if you receive accounts from people who were there, they have their point of view of event at that time.

When you get right down to it...no one REALLY knows what actually happen, in History, unless you yourself were there. It's like the story of the Fish that your Grandfather caught that got away. Unless you were actually there, you will really never actually know how 'big' it really was. Imagine how the story changes as your father, your mother or sister or etc tell the story each time and how it changes.

You can put this in to practice with anything....like the Bible. Know one 'really' knows what actually happen after all the generations, translations, etc...you have to go on what is told and the more you are told, the more of the picture you receive of what most likely happen. So you have to go on the best sources you can (i.e experts in the field, personal accounts, etc...)

I will be the first to say that I am wrong if I am but I certainly want to know how it was determined that I was if I was accounting a Historical event and what the sources were. Until then I will have to go on and continue relaying on information accounts from experts in the field and actual accounts from people that were there that tell their story...it's really the best you can do as I see it.


As far as the Maritime Disasters....I ran across what you were referring too after I posted my thoughts. Those look to be the largest as far as people...correct. Though I would bet most people (including me) don’t really consider maritime disasters on Military Ships (i.e Warships, transport ships, etc..) in War time. I would bet that most people are thinking Peace time, which might be why those disasters go most unrecognized.....just guessing.

I know I was thinking shear size and in area and destruction, such as in Texas City...though I have no idea if that would rank up there in that category....but that was what came to mind to me

 

[Steel]

Originally posted by Indiana
You make some good points but you must also realize that no matter where you go or where you live that events will be 'slanted' in one particular direction or another depending on the source, location, country and the motivation behind it. This is also less likely to happen in a free society than others because of the obvious.

Erm, yes that's exactly one of the points I was making. *shrug*

Back on topic, here's a good link for historical documents: here

 

[unmerged(13037)]

Best book on WW2

Over the years with numerous edits and updates - this remains one of the best books on the war.

The Penguin History of the Second World War
by Peter Calvocoressi, Guy Wint, John Pritchard

It covers the build up, course and consequnces comprehensivly. It is perfect for the level at which HOI is set... HOI does not need a detailed divsion, by division account of the Normandy landings - but the political lead up to Munich is more suited, and this book does that very well.

It is better than looking to the web, because there is no editorial control over what goes on the web, nor any validation of author... plus websites tend to focus on the technical details, whereas academic volumes can relate more the consequnces, and impact of events upon history rather than describe in detail armour thicknesses on Panzers during 1941.

As a student of War Studies at King's College London, this book was reguarly recomended both to us, and by our professors in the national press.

Lawrence Freedman, London Sunday Times
Combines elegance of style with mastery of the subject.... It retains its preeminent position.


This volume, previously published by Viking in hardcover and by Penguin in paperback as Total War: The Causes and Courses of the Second World War, has now been accorded the highest seal of recommendation available to its publishers who have relaunched it as their flagship Penguin History of the Second World War.

The new edition, like its 1995 reprint, unobtrusively improves upon the extraordinarily well-received 2nd edition published in 1989, is a far cry from the 1st edition published as long ago as 1972 (in its day also widely regarded as the finest single-volume history of the Second World War). The changes to the half of the volume devoted to the war against Germany and Italy are subtle but significant. The changes to the second half of the volume which concerns the war against Japan are far more sweeping and amount to a radical re-interpretation of the war and its context. Fortunately, the critical acclaim which accompanied the appearance of the 1989 and 1995 editions has proven that the transformation was entirely successful, and both the authors and the publishers look forward to its continued success as it meets the needs of a wide readership in the Twenty-First Century.

Here's what professional historians have said about the book:

"It combines elegance of style with mastery of the subject.... t retains its pre-eminent position.... This massive investigation into the causes & courses of the Second World War has been extensively revised... an impressive level of detail." -The Sunday Times

"Few written records deserve, like Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, to rank for generations to come as the authoritative work on decisive events in world history. This is fairly certain the category in which Total War belongs." -H.M. Consuls List

"Of the large number of general histories published in the past two decades... the best single-volume account of the conflict since it first appeared in 1972. The new edition enhances its reputation.... Not the least of this splendid volume's merits is its comprehensive and moving account of the terrible costs of the war in material destruction and suffering." -Brian Bond & Michael Dockrill, British Book News

"If you want a really sound history of the conflict from origins to denouement, then be grateful.... Its fluency and clarity are even more unusual than the separate treatment of western and eastern theatres, which gives a satisfying feeling of getting two hefty books for the price of one." -Dat Van Der Vat, The Guardian

"For the student, eager to understand better what led to the war, how it was fought and ended, and what happened afterward... well recommended." -Alan Brown, Morning Star

"Still longer, and still finer... promises to be much the best of all the books that salute a great war's anniversaries." -The Economist

"especially strong on Asia and the Pacific.... The result is a riveting and challenging analysis which is sure to stand the test of time." -Hatchards Guide to the Best Books on World War Two

"The new revised edition... remains such a crucial account. The book has been brought up to date in the light of the latest research." The contribution made "an impressive young historian, John Pritchard" is especially noteworthy: "Few of the original chapters by the late Guy Wint remain untouched. Pritchard has added a whole new dimension to our understanding of the Japanese internal situation and the international environment in which its leaders operated." Moreover, "Drawing upon his extensive knowledge of the Japanese war trial records and his own work in the archives, Pritchard takes a highly original view of British policy towards Japan in 1939 and a strong revisionist line on 1941.... This remains a key work." -Zara Steiner, Financial Times

"A book that merits exhaustive study, and will almost certainly become a collector's item... will surely become the definitive textbook on total war."- The Sunday Independent

"Its original insights and excellent writing make it outstanding.... a model of compressed clarity.... Indeed, taking almost any subject from the Russo-Finnish War to the V bombs, one finds a similarly clear, concise discussion.... Pritchard shares with the late Louis Allen that ability, rare in British writers, to convey a 'feel' for Japanese motivation and thinking." -E.D. Doyle, The Irish Times

"If only one book were to be chosen on World War II history, this would be tops in line for the nomination: it is exhaustive yet personal; technical in its research, yet involving in its presentation. The new, expanded edition offers insights beyond the original publication and should be considered a standard reference work for any history collection." -Diane Donovan, The Midwest Book Review

"more sophisticated, and has been much strengthened by use of documentary material not previously available" -Robert Key, The Observer

"Excellent." - Dr. David Reynolds, The Independent Observer "Immense tome... to which students or writers of military history can refer" -Field Marshal Lord Carver, The Times Literary Supplement

"The wartime term "blockbuster is one which could well fit this particular volume, running as it does to no less than 1,315 pages... The second revised edition illustrates how much fresh documentary material and expansive memoir publication coupled with the passage of time can enrich judgments and qualify evaluations.... This volume, at first intimidating, is enlivened by a fluent narrative style and illuminating, pointed pen portraits of ... the commanding personalities of wartime leadership.... Books will proliferate, but for those who wish to grasp what "total war" meant... this is an innocuous but penetrating blockbuster, well worth the price. Even more important, it is a book well worth pondering at length." -John Erickson, The Scotsman Supplement

"A book that merits exhaustive study, and will almost certainly become a collector's item... It will surely become the definitive textbook on total war." -The Sunday Independent