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What makes it your territory?

Uhh your are joking right?

We own it, we control it, we have had it for over 200 years, it's population is British and want to remain British, we drove out Argentina's illegal, immoral and illegitimate attempt to take it by force.... oh and we have nukes to just putting that out there.

It's ours end of.

It was never Argentina's territory.
 
Uhh your are joking right?

We own it, we control it, we have had it for over 200 years, it's population is British and want to remain British, we drove out Argentina's illegal, immoral and illegitimate attempt to take it by force.... oh and we have nukes to just putting that out there.

It's ours end of.

It was never Argentina's territory.

I think you're the one who's joking.

The territory was Spanish under the Nootka Convention, decades before the British took the islands. The British had agreed to those terms, renouncing all claims they had in the southern hemisphere of the Americas.

Under the Rio de la Plata government, the islands were part of their territory. The Rio de la Plata is recognized by Argentina as the same entity. Argentina held a claim to the islands since inception.

In 1832 and 1833, the British invaded the islands due to a conflict they had with the Argentines, threw away the existing population and illegally claimed the island for themselves.

So no, the opinion of squatters should not be taken into consideration like you wouldn't ask a burglar who's settled in your living room if he's comfortable there. That's blatant imperialism and colonialism you're advocating here.

What is Britain's claim exactly? The fact that they called dibs? Who cares if your government has nukes? At the moment they can't even see if they have to push or pull an exit door...
 
I think you're the one who's joking.

The territory was Spanish under the Nootka Convention, decades before the British took the islands. The British had agreed to those terms, renouncing all claims they had in the southern hemisphere of the Americas.

Under the Rio de la Plata government, the islands were part of their territory. The Rio de la Plata is recognized by Argentina as the same entity. Argentina held a claim to the islands since inception.

In 1832 and 1833, the British invaded the islands due to a conflict they had with the Argentines, threw away the existing population and illegally claimed the island for themselves.

So no, the opinion of squatters should not be taken into consideration like you wouldn't ask a burglar who's settled in your living room if he's comfortable there. That's blatant imperialism and colonialism you're advocating here.

What is Britain's claim exactly? The fact that they called dibs? Who cares if your government has nukes? At the moment they can't even see if they have to push or pull an exit door...

Argentina didn't have people on the islands and even if it did well tough shit it was over 200 years ago. Argentina are hypocrites anyway given what they did in Patagonia, everyone there is a transplanted population of squatters by your and their logic so are they going to give back Patagonia to Native American population

Argentina was founded by the Spanish through colonialism and imperialism and Argentina continued that tradition itself as I said before so they have no leg to stand on, face it they have no valid or legitimate argument.


EDIT: Something extra I just found, person can argue much better then I can so copy and pasting time.

Cut through all of the fake maps and stuff, and the crux of it is “Inheritance from Spain.” This is a falsehood. There was no “inheritance” and there is no international law of territorial acquisition and sovereignty by “Inheritance” - it doesn't exist. Territorial acquisition and sovereignty can take place by Cession, Prescription, Effective Occupation, Accretion and (until being outlawed under Article IV of the Hague Convention 1907) Conquest or Subjugation. None of these applies to Argentina in the case of the Falklands. No law, no basis for a claim. Should be simple, but let's go on….

Uti Possidetis Juris - Sounds fancy doesn't it? This is a principle of the law of Cession, first applied at the Lima Convention of 1848 when Spain oversaw the partition of its old empire. It is a signed and documented bilateral agreement between two states, recognising cession of territory. Argentina did not sign the agreement, didn't even turn up to the Lima Convention and was only recognised by Spain in 1858, ten years later, without the Falklands. This principle has never been applied retrospectively and Spain recognised British sovereignty over the Falklands in 1863. In short, it's a non starter.

“Formal possession in 1820” is another old spiel. An American privateer, David Jewett, in the pay of Buenos Aires, barely survived a storm and a mutiny and washed up on the Falklands. He waved a few guns around, raised a flag and went home shortly after (committing piracy against a Portuguese ship on the way). In his 30 page report to Buenos Aires, he didn't mention the Falklands once, which they discovered from a British newspaper 13 months later) and left Argentina under a cloud shortly after. Some “Formal possession” eh?

The Vernet settlement: Luis Vernet, a European businessman of dubious origin, had asked British permission to set up a ranching business on the Falklands. Britain had been reminded by the Dutch States General that its claim would lapse if it made no effective use of the islands and stated that it would claim them if we didn't want them. Vernet was the perfect answer. Unbeknownst to us, he also asked permission from Buenos Aires (which was not Argentina, I'll add) because the government owed him money. Vernet flew the British flag, and sent back regular reports to the British on his progress in establishing our settlement. When his venture failed, he left then asked our permission to return. His venture failed again and he was out of money except what was owed to him by the Buenos Aires government. He asked for money and they instead sent weapons in 1829 and told him to claim for them. He committed three acts of piracy against American ships and America removed him and his settlement by force in late 1832. In January 1833 the British sloop Clio arrived, paid and fed the inhabitants and encouraged them to stay. All except twelve did. Argentina still screams that this was a brutal invasion and that the population were expelled. Not one person was.

Proximity and being on Argentina's continental shelf: The single most useless argument, which has never been accepted in ICJ law. A quick look at what is on whose continental shelf in the world, shows how useless this really is.

In essence, Argentina believes a case of fraudulent history invented in 1946 which never was the case. There was no inheritance, no succession of states, no formal possession, no Argentine settlement and it comes down to “because they're closer.”

They have perfected this story over time and shout about it to everyone, whilst the British simply had no need to. 1946 was the year Argentina reinvented this “claim” after it voluntarily gave it up by treaty in 1849. There had been not one formal diplomatic protest for 97 years, nor had the Argentine senate even mentioned the word “Malvinas” between 1849–1941.

This entire “claim” is a fabrication which is indoctrinated into children from birth, hence they believe these strange stories. They repeat the myth that “Britain just turned up one day in 1833 to steal” ignoring our entire previous history with the Falklands which dated from 1592 - 224 years before Argentina even existed.

It is a clever sham, but nothing more.

“Absolute power does not corrupt absolutely, a
 
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All this started because people think that nations are 'social constructs' and they do not have a 'real meaning' and could or should be replaced with other things since "nations are bad". Nations are essentially an (very) extended group of families. So it's typically Marxist (or Leninist?) of someone to say that both nations and families are 'social constructs', because that's what their script dictates. That they need to be abolished because they promote inequalities and biases. And of course they're gonna promote biases. Get yourself in a dilemma where you can save 100 random people or your child. No one will act on the former. It would be against human nature to let your child die to save non-family members.

I was not condemning states in the original post that started the whole thing. I was indicating that states have no existence aside from the agreement of people (that is to say, a social construct). Families on the other hand, while they are undoubtedly a social construct, are based upon a physical existence. Everybody who has ever lived has a mother and a father.

Scotland has a heritage of it’s own, independant from the southern invaders and oppressors who cleared the Highlands for profit, displacing thousands and treating Scotland like one of Englands colonies. Scotlands heritage lies with Robert the Bruce and Braveheart. Alba not Albion. And even before that of Dal Riada and Ireland.

And if England acknowledges that Scotland (and Northern Ireland) have as much right to secede from the United Kingdom as the United Kingdom has to leave the EU - WinterBrexit is coming...

Scotland was united to England by a Scottish king. The Scottish parliament dissolved itself (for a massive bribe - I am not implying the English are morally upstanding in this, simply that the act of union was voted for by the government of Scotland). The Highland Clearances were done by the clan lairds to their own people, in imitation of the clearances that the English had done to their peasants earlier. It was a class of class war NOT imperialism. Scotland was one of the main beneficiaries of British imperialism. You, however, are correct that the Scotti were invaders from Ireland. RETURN SCOTLAND TO THE PICTS!

Scotland had a referendum on whether they wanted to leave Britain. They voted no. The British let them have that referendum. They recognise the right of both Northern Ireland and Scotland to leave the Union so long as a majority of the people who live there want to leave.

I am getting a wonderful sense of schadenfreude watching the British parliament running around in smaller and smaller circles and tying themselves into a collective knot over Brexit...
 
Scotland had a referendum on whether they wanted to leave Britain. They voted no. The British let them have that referendum. They recognise the right of both Northern Ireland and Scotland to leave the Union so long as a majority of the people who live there want to leave.

The Scottish people were not asked. The people who happened to live in Scotland at the time were. I could have voted there if I was in Edinburgh at the time like a friend of mine who worked there. He was an EU citizen, neither Scottish nor British.

If they are really okay with Scotland leaving, they will make sure that only Scots are allowed to vote in such a referendum.
Even the Brexit vote was skewed in favour of remain (which still failed) because they asked non-British people if they wanted to keep the status quo. The sense of citizenship and attachment to the nation seems alien in Britain. Why on earth was I allowed to vote on Brexit? If it were a paneuropean vote, fine. But it was an internal affair of British citizens.
 
Well, in 2019

The inhabitants of Melilla want to stay spanish
The inhabitants of Ceuta want to stay spanish
the inhabitants of Gibraltar want to stay british

As long as the inhabitants are happy with the status quo, why change it?
 
As long as the inhabitants are happy with the status quo, why change it?
It's seen as unfair and colonial to have a territory whose inhabitants don't get representation in their country's parliament, essentially. Even if the inhabitants are happy about their situation. Particularly if they are also subject to different legislation than the metropolis.
That applies to Gibraltar or the Falklands as much as it does to Puerto Rico, Diego Garcia or Guam, but that's the main point.
 
It's seen as unfair and colonial to have a territory whose inhabitants don't get representation in their country's parliament, essentially. Even if the inhabitants are happy about their situation. Particularly if they are also subject to different legislation than the metropolis.
That applies to Gibraltar or the Falklands as much as it does to Puerto Rico, Diego Garcia or Guam, but that's the main point.
I am pretty sure that Spain wouldn't drop their claim even if Gibraltar was fully integrated into UK, and in case of Argentina such move with Falklands would quite certainly result in full blown outrage about British "imperialism".
 
I am pretty sure that Spain wouldn't drop their claim even if Gibraltar was fully integrated into UK, and in case of Argentina such move with Falklands would quite certainly result in full blown outrage about British "imperialism".
The state would probably not drop the claim, but the main two complaints about Gibraltar among people are about smuggling and about it being a tax heaven, so full integration in the UK would very much reduce friction and silence a lot of government complaints. You'd mostly have only disputes about the extent of territorial waters and ecological concerns left.

A territory bring claimed by another country doesn't really have anything to do with whether that territory is a colony or not though, nor with general international opinion on having regions without parliamentary representation.
 
Spaniards just don't like not owning the whole peninsula cleanly. OCD map painters the whole lot of them. Just look at straight north south line of the tordesillas treaty or the grid layouts of their cities to see how OCD they are.

And there's something really irritating about having a tiny little speck of foreign territory on your peninsula. A tiny speck that they could have taken over at any time effortlessly EXCEPT for the fact that they could not. Because Britain owned it and Britain would have kicked their arse. It's a reminder that (compared to Britain) their nation was weak
 
Spaniards couldn't care less about the Rock, the monkeys and the Union Jack flying. Heck, we got more British people flying Union Jacks at Alicante or Malaga than in that… Rock.

It's Britishers who still got hard-ons thinking of the Empire, even if now it's reduced to just a little village living out of smuggling, money laundry and betting houses. It's their Viagra™, so it's understable they want to keep it.
 
Well, in 2019

The inhabitants of Melilla want to stay spanish
The inhabitants of Ceuta want to stay spanish
the inhabitants of Gibraltar want to stay british

As long as the inhabitants are happy with the status quo, why change it?

In 2019. How about before 2019?
Because in 1930 the British did not respect "self determination" when over 90% of the population of Cyprus wanted a Union with Greece. They actually retaliated by fighting the people and also by giving promises to minorities that didn't even have any demands at the time of their own state or their own 'union' with Turkey. The result was the current situation in Cyprus.

So when is the cut off period of "self determination"? 1950? 1980? 2000? 2019? Or is it a la carte?
 
In 2019. How about before 2019?
Because in 1930 the British did not respect "self determination" when over 90% of the population of Cyprus wanted a Union with Greece. They actually retaliated by fighting the people and also by giving promises to minorities that didn't even have any demands at the time of their own state or their own 'union' with Turkey. The result was the current situation in Cyprus.

So when is the cut off period of "self determination"? 1950? 1980? 2000? 2019? Or is it a la carte?

Since we can’t make governments change their past actions anyways, why not start by respecting peoples self determination in the present?

Any attempt to claim land based on ownership by long dead generations runs into the problem of arbitrarily chosen dates for rightful ownership. Why should Gibraltar go to the Spanish who owned it in 1700 AD and not the Berbers who owned it in 1400 AD.
 
Spaniards couldn't care less about the Rock, the monkeys and the Union Jack flying. Heck, we got more British people flying Union Jacks at Alicante or Malaga than in that… Rock.

It's Britishers who still got hard-ons thinking of the Empire, even if now it's reduced to just a little village living out of smuggling, money laundry and betting houses. It's their Viagra™, so it's understable they want to keep it.

But some Spanish also want it back, perhaps to get a hard on thinking of their own lost empire?

Anyway both Argentina and Spain lay claim on the Falklands and Gibraltar during times of internal strife and then don't focus so much about it when things are good.

Gotta second the post above me, all of Europe have benefited from the post-'45 agreement of borders, claiming lands based upon ownership some centuries ago (heck all of Spain should be Habsburg then) instead of the current situation is a dangerous rabbit's hole.
 
Since we can’t make governments change their past actions anyways, why not start by respecting peoples self determination in the present?

Any attempt to claim land based on ownership by long dead generations runs into the problem of arbitrarily chosen dates for rightful ownership. Why should Gibraltar go to the Spanish who owned it in 1700 AD and not the Berbers who owned it in 1400 AD.

Why do it now when you can do it in 150 years when someone else may own it?

You're not describing rationality and respect, you're talking about allowing the stronger to impose their will. This is nothing more than the promotion of the status quo that the lack of respect has brought us. It's like the principal tells the high school kid that gets beaten up to accept that he's not welcome at a part of a school because the bigger kids will beat him.

Just because you're part of the majority does not make you correct, respectful or legitimate.

If we had a proper UN type of organization half of these conflicts out there would have been resolved before they were even conceived as no one would dare do them or keep doing them.

Anyway both Argentina and Spain lay claim on the Falklands and Gibraltar during times of internal strife and then don't focus so much about it when things are good.

The claim is always there. The governments change and don't all have the same agenda. And as you say, internal strife makes things appear more than other times. Look at the Catalan issue. The Catalans have had an Independence agenda for decades but it only came to surface as a serious claim in the euro-crisis years.


Gotta second the post above me, all of Europe have benefited from the post-'45 agreement of borders, claiming lands based upon ownership some centuries ago (heck all of Spain should be Habsburg then) instead of the current situation is a dangerous rabbit's hole.

How do you mean this? And who exactly is this "all of Europe"?
Almost no border changes ocurred after WW2. Sure, some nations popped out in the following decades but it had nothing to do with old lands, they just happened to still be settled there.

Greece for example had claims on northern Epirus (present day Albania), Eastern Romelia (present day Bulgaria), Eastern Thrace (present day Turkey) and Cyprus in WW2, being an Allied power, but got a big fat zero out of it and only one of the claims wasn't possible as Turkey was neutral and joined the Allies, while Cyprus was a constant promise - Cypriots donated their gold and wealth for the Allied war effort in return of 'Enosis' while they also fought for the allies with the same promise.
You can blame the Greek Reds for screwing up any lifeline Greece had, but it doesn't seem like "all of Europe" is accurate.

Poland got some land, who else? I don't think Yugoslavia got anything either. And those are the three countries on the Allied (winner) sides that got the most damage out of it in terms of casualties per capita in Europe.
 
Why do it now when you can do it in 150 years when someone else may own it?

You're not describing rationality and respect, you're talking about allowing the stronger to impose their will. This is nothing more than the promotion of the status quo that the lack of respect has brought us. It's like the principal tells the high school kid that gets beaten up to accept that he's not welcome at a part of a school because the bigger kids will beat him.

Just because you're part of the majority does not make you correct, respectful or legitimate.

If we had a proper UN type of organization half of these conflicts out there would have been resolved before they were even conceived as no one would dare do them or keep doing them.



The claim is always there. The governments change and don't all have the same agenda. And as you say, internal strife makes things appear more than other times. Look at the Catalan issue. The Catalans have had an Independence agenda for decades but it only came to surface as a serious claim in the euro-crisis years.




How do you mean this? And who exactly is this "all of Europe"?
Almost no border changes ocurred after WW2. Sure, some nations popped out in the following decades but it had nothing to do with old lands, they just happened to still be settled there.

Greece for example had claims on northern Epirus (present day Albania), Eastern Romelia (present day Bulgaria), Eastern Thrace (present day Turkey) and Cyprus in WW2, being an Allied power, but got a big fat zero out of it and only one of the claims wasn't possible as Turkey was neutral and joined the Allies, while Cyprus was a constant promise - Cypriots donated their gold and wealth for the Allied war effort in return of 'Enosis' while they also fought for the allies with the same promise.
You can blame the Greek Reds for screwing up any lifeline Greece had, but it doesn't seem like "all of Europe" is accurate.

Poland got some land, who else? I don't think Yugoslavia got anything either. And those are the three countries on the Allied (winner) sides that got the most damage out of it in terms of casualties per capita in Europe.

Some got lands others lost it. Point being there have been little conflict over the post war borders (save for Yugoslavia and the Russian annexation of Crimea). European nations have learned from some pretty bloody lessons, and self determination and cooperation is the way to go by. Compare the current situation to 1914-1945. How many different wars and conflicts were fougth during the two world wars and the interwar years?

To stir nationalist sentiments and make cheap populist points do nothing but divert focus of internal issues toward a created external enemy at best, but it may have severe implications on cooperation between nation states and general peace in Europe.

The NATO Secretary said a few weeks ago that Europe once was the Middle East of the world. Aggressive nationalist policies might revive a Europe we do not want.
 
Why do it now when you can do it in 150 years when someone else may own it?

You're not describing rationality and respect, you're talking about allowing the stronger to impose their will. This is nothing more than the promotion of the status quo that the lack of respect has brought us. It's like the principal tells the high school kid that gets beaten up to accept that he's not welcome at a part of a school because the bigger kids will beat him.

Just because you're part of the majority does not make you correct, respectful or legitimate.

If we had a proper UN type of organization half of these conflicts out there would have been resolved before they were even conceived as no one would dare do them or keep doing them.



The claim is always there. The governments change and don't all have the same agenda. And as you say, internal strife makes things appear more than other times. Look at the Catalan issue. The Catalans have had an Independence agenda for decades but it only came to surface as a serious claim in the euro-crisis years.




How do you mean this? And who exactly is this "all of Europe"?
Almost no border changes ocurred after WW2. Sure, some nations popped out in the following decades but it had nothing to do with old lands, they just happened to still be settled there.

Greece for example had claims on northern Epirus (present day Albania), Eastern Romelia (present day Bulgaria), Eastern Thrace (present day Turkey) and Cyprus in WW2, being an Allied power, but got a big fat zero out of it and only one of the claims wasn't possible as Turkey was neutral and joined the Allies, while Cyprus was a constant promise - Cypriots donated their gold and wealth for the Allied war effort in return of 'Enosis' while they also fought for the allies with the same promise.
You can blame the Greek Reds for screwing up any lifeline Greece had, but it doesn't seem like "all of Europe" is accurate.

Poland got some land, who else? I don't think Yugoslavia got anything either. And those are the three countries on the Allied (winner) sides that got the most damage out of it in terms of casualties per capita in Europe.

Do it now because people living now should have a say in who rules them. As long as self determination is consistently implemented it favours neither the weak nor the strong and it prevents future occurances of the type of injustices that you have accused the British of in this thread. There is no year in the past that could be universally agreed upon to be the fair determinator of ownership (1700 or 1400 for instance) so the present is the best option. Unlike past dates it also doesn’t require any more genocides to implement.
 
European nations have learned from some pretty bloody lessons, and self determination and cooperation is the way to go by. Compare the current situation to 1914-1945. How many different wars and conflicts were fougth during the two world wars and the interwar years?

I think that was more due to the WMD fearful effect than "oh what a wonderful world".

Wars up until the WW2 were fought in rural areas and the ones affected were the soldiers, the farmers of those lands and some remote villagers.
Wars during WW2 were dragged into the urban zones, air strikes were a common occurence in big cities and a push of a button could destroy massive amounts of inhabited land. What the Great Powers were (claiming they were) hoping to achieve before WW1 became successful in the Cold War period. Both USA and the USSR was more than willing to engage in warfare, but they feared to bring war in their own home.

People like war in general. Look at the movies that have success, the history books and pages, heck, we're in a forum of a gaming company that's essentially built around warfare. But bring war near you and you instantly hate it. The USA is a decent real life example of that, as their citizens are quite happy in large numbers to participate in warfare in remote places, but if you'd ask them to go to war with a neighboring country they'd probably not be very aggreable on that as it could reach their daily lives.
 
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Greece for example had claims on northern Epirus (present day Albania), Eastern Romelia (present day Bulgaria), Eastern Thrace (present day Turkey) and Cyprus in WW2, being an Allied power, but got a big fat zero out of it and only one of the claims wasn't possible as Turkey was neutral and joined the Allies, while Cyprus was a constant promise - Cypriots donated their gold and wealth for the Allied war effort in return of 'Enosis' while they also fought for the allies with the same promise.
You can blame the Greek Reds for screwing up any lifeline Greece had, but it doesn't seem like "all of Europe" is accurate.

Poland got some land, who else? I don't think Yugoslavia got anything either. And those are the three countries on the Allied (winner) sides that got the most damage out of it in terms of casualties per capita in Europe.
Greece did get Dodecanese. Yugoslavia also got some stuff from Italy at Adriatic coast.
 
Greece did get Dodecanese. Yugoslavia also got some stuff from Italy at Adriatic coast.

Indeed, Greece got the Dodecanese via the British, yes.

And you're correct on Yugoslavia. I just recalled all that 'Fiume' business with Mussolini.

WW2 falls very short overall when you compare the ratio of claims:actual territorial gains with other large scale wars.