History Question I was wondering about...

[Alekpier608]

If the Western Powers promised to defend Polish Independence in 1939, why did they only declare war on Germany and not the USSR? They were allied in the dismemberment of the Polish state. I have never found anyone who can answer this question unless the Soviet Union, France, UK, and USA were already secretly united to destroy the Third Reich at some time prior to 1939. If anyone can explain this to me I'd be delighted to hear it.

 

[Piggy]

Its kinda complicated and I dont think a definite answer will ever be found.

Im currently reading the "Rise and fall of the 3rd Reich" and bascially from what I've gathered the UK was still trying to get the Soviets into an alliance even as they entered Poland, which they did on the grounds that they were trying to help stabilize the eastern border from chaos due to Germanys invasion.

And while the soviets did invade poland they didnt do at the exact same time as germany did, the UK having already DOW'd Germany, like I said still hoped Russia could be brought over to the allied side, so DOW'ing Russia wouldnt have helped them in this regard. Not to mention the last thing the allies wanted/needed was a hostile russia that might ally with germany. Hindsight says this wouldnt have lasted long, but in 1939 no one seemed to be aware of Hitlers ultimate plans.

Also I dont believe the German-Soviet pact was ever made public in 39, maybe not even untill after the war. Either way at the time no one but germany and russia knew about the "secret" pact to split up Poland and the "sphere's of influence" that it contained.

 

[Alekpier608]

Also I dont believe the German-Soviet pact was ever made public in 39, maybe not even untill after the war. Either way at the time no one but germany and russia knew about the "secret" pact to split up Poland and the "sphere's of influence" that it contained.

The nonaggression pact was part of the public Molotov Ribbentrop pact. But after Russian and German Troops meet at Brest Livtosk as allies and Russia annexed the Baltic States, how can the British and France use the Invasion of Poland as a casus belli for DOW on Germany but not do anything to the USSR even after they attacked Poland, annexed the baltic states and invaded Finland. I don't know, it just doesn't seem to make sense to me. I have read bits and pieces of "Rise and Fall"... I will have to look it up.

 

[Piggy]

Yes the non-agression pact was public, but the secret protocols werent. IE: splitting poland, baltic states etc....

Also remember that the UK DOW'd germany within a few days of its invasion, russia didnt enter poland untill what, 2 weeks later?, when the UK was still IIRC trying to get them into an alliance.

Lesser of two evils perhaps? Well thats what it turned out to be later in the war.

Yes we can look back now and say they probably should have been DOW'd by the UK, but this is in hindsight.

I think in the end it comes down to the fact that the UK was still trying to get Russia into some sort of alliance. The UK in 1939 was completely out of touch with what was really going on.

Like I said its complicated and a definite answer doesnt exist AFAIK.

 

[unmerged(65036)]

Yes we can look back now and say they probably should have been DOW'd by the UK, but this is in hindsight.

Actually, that would probably have been a horrible mistake because it would have made it impossible for the Western Allies and the Soviets to coordinate or support each other later on, and would almost have guaranteed a second round of fighting after the defeat of Germany.

I think in the end it comes down to the fact that the UK was still trying to get Russia into some sort of alliance. The UK in 1939 was completely out of touch with what was really going on.

The Soviets were actually open to the idea of an anti-German alliance, just not right then. They had been interested in such an alliance for most of the 1930s, after all.

 

[cegorach]

If the Western Powers promised to defend Polish Independence in 1939, why did they only declare war on Germany and not the USSR?

Realpolitic, but not quite for sure. Britain and Poland NEVER expected a Soviet attack. The alliance was directed towards German aggression, not against Soviet one.
Poland had anti-Soviet defensive alliance with Romania for that, but in 1939 Polish government officially didn't ask the Romanians to activate it - it was seen that they cannot help by getting beaten and neutral Romania was the priceless fall back area for over 100 000 Polish soldiers and its government.
Also the equipment bought by Poland before the war was on its way to Romanian ports - but Soviet attack made it useless - it was later used by Polish army in France nonetheless.

They were allied in the dismemberment of the Polish state.

That is tru. Soviet assisted Germany from the day one by helping them in certain ways like seting radio beacon in Minsk used by Luftwaffe. Germany also expected Soviet attack since 5th September and asked repeatedly why it doesn't come (German generals were afraid of French offensive very much).

I have never found anyone who can answer this question unless the Soviet Union, France, UK, and USA were already secretly united to destroy the Third Reich at some time prior to 1939.

They were not, thogh the Uk and France tried to involve Stalin into such alliance, but on conditions unacceptable to Poland - I cannot lose the feealing they were simply trying not to fight n their own and leave the dirty work to the others.


However after Poland was attacked, and more important after FINLAND was invaded and the SU was trown away from the League of Nations the UK and France prepared quite advanced plans to support Finland and to attack the Soviet Union DIRECTLY.

They considered Poland to be at war with the SU (which was tru, though complicated and blurred a little) so Polish Podhalan Brigade, navy and fighter units were supposed to fight in Finland transported through Scandinavia, there was also considerable British and French involvement, but I can't say what exactly.

Most likely it was of the sze of the force sent later to Narvik.



In addition - which is forgotten too often - British and French bombers were supposed to attack Baku oilfields and indeed recon flights were made from Syria and Iraq bases.

Soviets employed and American company to analise how dangerous would be such bombardment and those answered that flames would be very hard to extinguish - 'firestorms lasting for days' if I remember correctly.

British and French bombers made those recon flights and were impossible to intercept by Soviet fighters so such attack would be quite successfull, but before the Allies launched them Finland already signed the peace treaty.

It is possible that the danger of allied strike made the Soviets more willing to seek for agreement earlier than puppeting Finland as it was planned, but it might have no influence as well...


So the Allies might even go to war against the Soviets if such strikes were made and the situation was exploited more, but as usual their actions were 'too little too late', though theis aggressiveness is almost astonishing compared to lack of activity in 1939.

But after Russian and German Troops meet at Brest Livtosk as allies and Russia annexed the Baltic States, how can the British and France use the Invasion of Poland as a casus belli for DOW on Germany but not do anything to the USSR even after they attacked Poland, annexed the baltic states and invaded Finland. I don't know, it just doesn't seem to make sense to me. I have read bits and pieces of "Rise and Fall"... I will have to look it up.

There was one little detail I must add - British guarantees of independence were read and used as seemed fit by the British. The wording of te entire agreement was such that only independence of Poland was protected, but NOT its territory - so according to the British if in the end Poland as a state was reduced to one small village it was still wht they promised.

Of course I am using 'reducing to absurd' rhetorical trick, but if we see later relations between Polish and British governments it is exactly what they did, though they failed to protect the independence as well, but that is another question.

 

[Fgorginator]

If the Western Powers promised to defend Polish Independence in 1939, why did they only declare war on Germany and not the USSR? They were allied in the dismemberment of the Polish state. I have never found anyone who can answer this question unless the Soviet Union, France, UK, and USA were already secretly united to destroy the Third Reich at some time prior to 1939. If anyone can explain this to me I'd be delighted to hear it.

And the Allies arent idiots so being at war with two giant countries did not appeal to them

 

[Piggy]

That is tru. Soviet assisted Germany from the day one by helping them in certain ways like seting radio beacon in Minsk used by Luftwaffe. Germany also expected Soviet attack since 5th September and asked repeatedly why it doesn't come (German generals were afraid of French offensive very much).


They were not, thogh the Uk and France tried to involve Stalin into such alliance, but on conditions unacceptable to Poland - I cannot lose the feealing they were simply trying not to fight n their own and leave the dirty work to the others.

Oh yes, I forgot about the radio beacons, having just read it in the book last week (too much info in that book)

After the war the german generals stated they were quite surprised, and relieved that France didnt attack. They only had something like 12 or 15 divisions on the west wall, half of them being reserves against nearly 100 French divisions. France could have easily overwhemled them in a few days.

According to that book Im reading this is exactly what the germans told Stalin, and what Stalin already believed anyway. The allies simply want us to fight their wars for them... or something like that.

 

[Piggy]

And the Allies arent idiots so being at war with two giant countries did not appeal to them

Actually when you look at the big picture, all the stuff leading up to sept 1 1939 the allies were complete idiots. They could have stopped the germans any number of times but instead they kept giving in. Even when the war started the allies (mainly France) could have easily crossed the west wall.

There was a group of generals in the german army that were trying to get France to do this, along with several german divisons in key places they were going to overthrow the hitlers regime to avoid a world war.

I suppose its easy to say all this in light of the evidence and hindsight. But that fact is that the allies allowed germany to keep on bluffing them.

Of coarse being at war with germany and russia would have been quite dumb like you said. But I have to say that IMO the allies missed the boat on several occasions.

 

[unmerged(65036)]

Of coarse being at war with germany and russia would have been quite dumb like you said. But I have to say that IMO the allies missed the boat on several occasions.

Yes, but deciding not to attack the Soviets during 1939-40 wasn't one of those occasions.

 

[Piggy]

Yes, but deciding not to attack the Soviets during 1939-40 wasn't one of those occasions.

Oh yes there's no doubt about that, sorry if I came across as saying "that" was a mistake, I was referring to all the previous diplomatic blunders.

 

[Alekpier608]

I don't understand why the UK and France considered Germany such a threat when Hitler clearly stated that his enemy was the Bolsheviks and German expansion was to be to the east. The Soviet Union attempted to invade Europe in 1919 and start a worldwide revolution. Hitler never really wanted a war with France and UK if he could avoid it. The USSR intended to conquer Europe since its inception. To me their ideology should have been seen as far more dangerous to the West then the Nazis, who wanted to crush the communists at any cost. I think the large number of communist sympathetic leftists in France and the Uk and USA were intent on making an accomadation with the USSR. At least it seems that way to me. Both regimes committed evil crimes against humanity but worldwide Bolshevism killed far more people in the 20th century then Hitler ever dreamed of.

 

[unmerged(65036)]

I don't understand why the UK and France considered Germany such a threat when Hitler clearly stated that his enemy was the Bolsheviks and German expansion was to be to the east.

Because they remembered the Great War.

If Germany had been successful in conquering in the East, then the Germans would have become an overwhelming power in Europe. France would have been helpless against them; Britain would be threatened with a renewed naval arms race that they might very well lose.

Very few nations are comfortable with the idea that one of their neighbors is planning a war of conquest, even they, personally, are not on the target list.

The Soviet Union attempted to invade Europe in 1919 and start a worldwide revolution.

After Trotsky lost the struggle within Russia, the Soviets turned inward. Stalin was very specific on this; his idea was to build "socialism in one country." During the interwar era, he had no overt designs on large areas of Europe, or on any areas that were not within the historic boundaries of Czarist Russia.

Moreover, the Soviets were, by all appearances, playing by the rules of international law and the League of Nations up until 1939. Soviet diplomats made the same kinds of protests, or even stronger protests, against acts of aggression by the right-wing dictatorships as the democracies' diplomats did. Even if they didn't like communism in the slightest, Western politicians saw the USSR as a legitimate nation that was willing to play by the rules of international diplomacy. This perception continued up until 1939.

Hitler never really wanted a war with France and UK if he could avoid it.

This information was secret and not known by the French or British at the time. By all available evidence at the time, Hitler's military buildup was aimed directly at giving him military parity or superiority compared to France and Britain, which the French and British would reasonably consider a threat.

The USSR intended to conquer Europe since its inception. To me their ideology should have been seen as far more dangerous to the West then the Nazis, who wanted to crush the communists at any cost.

The USSR had abandoned any plan to conquer Europe in the early 1920s. The threat of communist ideology was seen as real, but not immediate or urgent, while the threat of imperialistic, aggressive right-wing dictatorships in Central Europe was.

Given who actually started the Second World War, I would say that this perception was very accurate.

I think the large number of communist sympathetic leftists in France and the Uk and USA were intent on making an accomadation with the USSR.

True, but not relevant, since the communist antipathetic rightists in France and the UK and the USA were also intent on, or at least open to the idea of, accomodation with the USSR. Moreover, the USSR appeared intent on accomodation with the West, too. Whereas Germany and Italy did not appear intent on accomodation, but instead on grabbing as much as they could take.

At least it seems that way to me. Both regimes committed evil crimes against humanity but worldwide Bolshevism killed far more people in the 20th century then Hitler ever dreamed of.

Since Hitler dreamed of killing off all the Slavs, and since there were many more Slavs in Europe (including Russia) than the total number of deaths that can reasonably be blamed on communism during the twentieth century, I disagree with this statement.