HoI 3 / III TFH Supply-System

[GeneralGrievous]

Well, "a few more days" would be no problem. But you have mentioned that it would take 17 days to establish a supply route to these divions: the divison loses about 0.2 to 0.3 org PER HOUR!!!!! So imho there is no chance to "sit and wait". The divison will literally die within the time to establish a new supply route. And I still dont know wether I have to play 17 days in-game! My problem (of understanding the supply system) is that I thought the AI would establish a "supply system" with "supply routes", regardless to the units. I have read forums that you have to build in Russia "Supply higways", so connected provinces with a high infrastrucure. That makes sense to me....but the reality in-game...is...another world...
-Trennung-
I dont wont get my personal game analysed but its more easy for me to show my problems: I have since more than 3 weeks (!) no chance to get my divisons supplied in the center. The supply is mostly provided by convois.

-Trennung-
@50shadesofgreen
It is very interesting that you mentioned my supply-stockpile. There is obvious a relation between stockpile and supply-output. During the hole time (beginning war in the east) until now I had never spend any IC on supply because the stockpile has continous grown (up to over 15k). For testing reasons I had sometimes spend some IC on supply, but not very often or much IC. Now my stockpile is -as you can see- within 1 or 2 weeks gone away from over 10K! (No dipolmatic reason!). It must have something to do with the supply output. I am not quite sure what it is, but I will post my further experience. Perhaps the convois need more supply. I am still a little confused esp. because of the "non-fighting-units-in-a-100%infra" that get no supplies...

By the way: in my game every unit which conquers a province get supplies, it doesnt matter wether the province is defended or has IC to produce supplies, you can see this at the pic above.

 

[50shadesofgreen]

If you capture a province which had enemy supply in it, you will capture that supply when you occupy it. If you don't produce supply yourself then your only supply is captured supply. If that captured supply is 30 nodes from Berlin then in theory it will procede back to Berlin at speed of one province a day, and once back will take another 30 days to route back to your front line unit.

I say in theory but in practice any unit on the path may gobble up your supply on the way. Be very wary of any units that move or fight in the pathway as they like to eat the supply or fuel that passes. I can't see your airbases, but remember air units also eat your supplies.

When I look at your advance it is horrifying how far advanced your lead units are compared to how much of your rear is still unoccupied with battles and moving units all over.

You have 92 supply in Berlin. Split between all your units and all your battles, where exactly should the AI priority be? That's 92 supply arriving somewhere in 30 days probably. Minus the supply lost in transfer tax and the supply eaten by everyone on the path.

 

[50shadesofgreen]

I mentioned before that if you build supply then some supplies are built in those provinces (provided there is land connection to capitol). For a German advance on Russia it is advantageous to build industry near the front as that means supply appears nearer the front.

I guess you already have maxed out your supply conditions? Proper OOB with best guy in Army Group to minimise supply usage. Log Wiz Generals all in place, Chief of Army with -10% Supply Consumption and Chief of Staff with 10% supply throughput.

Thoughput is a massive issue. When I took Greece most provinces were Infra 7 ( throughput 266), but supply had to pass through southern Yugoslavia with infra 4 ( throughput 87). So no matter how good the ground was in Greece my Armies were stuck on the 87 supplies limit, for example by the 4 Infra behind.

Looking at your image I had a quick look at the area above Crimea and was able to compare this with the Infra in my game. Lyubashivka is still in Russian hands but it is a 7 infra province on the obvious supply route from Berlin to Odessa on a trail of 7 Infra provinces. Your supply south seems to pass instead through the green province of Arbuzynka which is only a 4 infra. It's actually probably less than 4, if only recently captured. This will seriously hamper supply past that bottleneck.

A little further north, you have taken the city of Dnipropetrovsk and gone well beyond it, but again omitted to take the province just west of the city, which would open up another 7 infra expressway.

It's well worth switching to the Infrastructure Mapmode to see where the supply pathways should be going.

 

[50shadesofgreen]

Finally, ( sorry for third post as it won't let me add to the previous posts).
.. check what's actually happening to the supplies in the convoys to places like Memel. When you dump supplies to places with a land route to your capital then the unused head straight back to your capital. So unless they pass anyone on the way that eats them, they will just trickle back to Berlin while paying supply tax all the way. It's a good way to keep an airforce in Memel in tip top supply status, but will do very little for the units East of Memel.

Sometimes such convoyed supply will filter forward, but often not. I'm guessing by the amount of green to the west of Memel and the almost zero supply in your stockpile, that a good part of your recently missing stockpile is flowing west to Berlin after its boat trip?

 

[GarfunkeL]

Yeah, using supply convoys once your armies have passed that port while also having a land connection to your capital is counter-productive for the reasons provided above. The only time it works is if you still have divisions fighting right next to the port because the odds are that you have bunch of units moving through the port or the path from port to capital who will use those supplies as they trickle back, which allows you to temporarily circumvent the infrastructure bottlenecks, but you must remember to disband the convoys as the frontline moves forward.

Similarly, if you use air transport to fly supply ahead, you must constantly monitor the end province of your airlift so that it matches your frontline divisions, otherwise it's not working. Which is why I only bother with it to help my spear-tip Panzer divisions instead of trying to keep the entire frontline well supplied.

Also, the old wisdom of supply highways does not work as advertised because supply does not move laterally. So having couple of 10 Infra "highways" from Berlin to the frontlines is only useful in supplying the units that are exactly on those highways. Units that are to the side of the highways might demand supply from Berlin via entirely different route as they - to my knowledge - always take the shortest direct route. You can sort of see it in your screenshot, how the supply routes from the divisions snake, province by province, to Berlin. This is pretty counter-productive, because most other games with an actual supply model, like The Operational Art of War and the old-school Gary Grigsby games, work as you would expect - supply "moves" along railroads and is distributed further ahead from the railheads to units that require it via roads and only try to cross "wilderness" if there is no other route. Paradox have never figured out way to simulate railroads in their games - the Vicky use is just a generic infrastructure-style bonus and reduction in generic attrition - properly, so we have to live with this unrealistic system. But it's still better than the arcade model in which supply just teleports to units!

And yes, supply moves 1 province per 1 day in both ways. Remember that a division out of supply will not be eliminated, it just goes to 0 ORG and that still takes couple of days. It's only if it's in-combat that it's in danger - even then the enemy must overrun it to actually eliminate it.

 

[Kovax]

From what I understand (which could be incorrect), units CANNOT use the supply as it trickles back. They can only take from the outbound supplies. Dropping supplies at a port MAY provide a bit of additional supply to the units beyond it IF their supply lines already pass through that port, in which case some supply will advance instead of going into the return pipeline.

Also, supply moves at a rate per day which roughly corresponds to the size of a province, but it seems like it takes longer to traverse some of the larger provinces.

If you're not building supplies, then the only ways that you can get supplies are either by capturing it, or from any puppets you might have, which will be forced to produce supplies for both you and them. Puppets have their supply systems merged with their overlord if there's a land connection, but in one of the earlier expansions, Hungary's supply system got merged with Germany's if/when they joined the Axis. Playing Hungary, if you joined the Axis, you suddenly found your whole army running short on supplies, no matter how much IC you pumped into it, because it was all being sent to Berlin, and a mere trickle made it back to supply your own units. That was eventually fixed.

 

[50shadesofgreen]

I hope the OP hasn't given up on that game. I'm guessing that a quick slider switch to all supplies and little else may turn things around. Most units must be within around 5 provinces of some IC. So nearly everyone should get some supply within a week. Just tidy up the rear with an eye on opening up the routes and perhaps rebase all the planes west of Berlin for a while.

 

[50shadesofgreen]

....correction. Supply from your own IC comes from your provinces with land connection to your capital but ONLY CORE provinces.

I was doing some tests and only just realised something. Units will stockpile supply in their provinces to amass a fair amount (30 days FTM vs 15 days TFH?). Yet provinces at the speartip will always rob those further back. So a division furthest east could be sitting on 15-30 days supply while ones just two steps behind will be left starving.

Also supply DOES change direction. If you stop a speartip division and put a Log Wizard in charge (and down the chain). Then much of the amassed supply there will filter back down the nodes to Berlin. When it falls back to another supply path then supply will be drawn from that forwards again. You can even simply test this by switching the Log Wiz out again and watch the "excess supply" track back to the first unit.

This poses the other option of disbanding unnecessary brigades in forward units to decrease their supply guzzle, yet possibly add mobility? Thinking Artillery?

 

[GeneralGrievous]

Sorry for the late replay. And Thx to your answers, they are really interesting and I have learned from you guys again.
@50shadesofgreen
First at all: my supply-system is as its best. I have done everything to optimize it. There is nothing to change. Thats because I am so frightened why my Russia-Campaign has such a big supply-problem. (xxxxx=2 General Log xxxx=5/6 General Log/Off xxx=3 General Log/Off-Def + Infra + techs)

I mentioned before that if you build supply then some supplies are built in those provinces (provided there is land connection to capitol). For a German advance on Russia it is advantageous to build industry near the front as that means supply appears nearer the front.

I am not really sure, if this works: i a german forum they say thats this doesnt improve your supply-situation at the eastern front.

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I dont understand this german-forum explantation and I agree with with @50shadesofgreen but Ingame there is no proof, that "Front-IC" improves the supply-situation, although it should :-(

Yeah, using supply convoys once your armies have passed that port while also having a land connection to your capital is counter-productive for the reasons provided above. The only time it works is if you still have divisions fighting right next to the port because the odds are that you have bunch of units moving through the port or the path from port to capital who will use those supplies as they trickle back, which allows you to temporarily circumvent the infrastructure bottlenecks, but you must remember to disband the convoys as the frontline moves forward.

Yes, you are right. The upkeeping of many convoys didnt improved my supply-situation, it only took mann supllies from m stockpile. That was new to me because I thought that every supply that was delivered to front by convoy was provided to EVERY unit, not only the surrounding units.

Also, the old wisdom of supply highways does not work as advertised because supply does not move laterally. So having couple of 10 Infra "highways" from Berlin to the frontlines is only useful in supplying the units that are exactly on those highways.

So what should I do? I had a 100% Infra and ran out of suppy. Now In Russia I gonna build these 100%-Infra-Highways, what else can you don in Russia? Dont get me wrong, I dont a solution for the eastern campaign, but I am still confused how the suplly-system works :-( In m y current eastern-camapign the infrastructure, the techs and the commander-traits are nearly trivial: the main poin of support are convois. This is pretty unsatisfactory. To said it clearly: the ONLY REASON WHY MY RUSSIAN FRONT IS SUPPLIED IS BECAUSE OF CONVOIS! That cant be be "supply-system" of HOI3, cant it?

From what I understand (which could be incorrect), units CANNOT use the supply as it trickles back. They can only take from the outbound supplies. Dropping supplies at a port MAY provide a bit of additional supply to the units beyond it IF their supply lines already pass through that port, in which case some supply will advance instead of going into the return pipeline.

This is another point and I think @Kovax is right. That at least my experience.

If you're not building supplies, then the only ways that you can get supplies are either by capturing it, or from any puppets you might have, which will be forced to produce supplies for both you and them. Puppets have their supply systems merged with their overlord if there's a land connection, but in one of the earlier expansions, Hungary's supply system got merged with Germany's if/when they joined the Axis. Playing Hungary, if you joined the Axis, you suddenly found your whole army running short on supplies, no matter how much IC you pumped into it, because it was all being sent to Berlin, and a mere trickle made it back to supply your own units. That was eventually fixed.

Well, of course youre right in a way. But I have for YEARS not spend any/much IC for supply. And my stockpile has grown continously. And now it has vanished within 1-2 weeks into nothing (from 4k to zero). I think this is because of the amount of new convois to the black sea (convoi to sevastopol with 41 ships). Perhaps it may be because of the advance in Russia...but the unit in central russia are continous out of supply, so this cant be the reason??!

I want to thank you all guys, your answers got me ahead in general, but I still dont understand why it impossible to get my units supplied? In Central-Russia: no chance=they will die I dont move them! In France=WTF???They dont move, they dont fight???

I will now try the differences between NO IC on Supply and FULL IC on supply.

I will share my further experiences, but I also appreciate your comments. Thx.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

Oops, forget about one thing:

In my experience it doesnt matter whether a captured province has IC or not: you ALWAYS get supply (for some reasons)
So thats perhaps why my attacks always go forward in the direction of captured provinces....and tha is proved by russian-campaign: I move units without supply in recently captured provinces...and voila..they are supplied

 

[50shadesofgreen]

First at all: my supply-system is as its best. I have done everything to optimize it. There is nothing to change. Thats because I am so frightened why my Russia-Campaign has such a big supply-problem. (xxxxx=2 General Log xxxx=5/6 General Log/Off xxx=3 General Log/Off-Def + Infra + techs)

If you take a look at your last image you will quickly see that there is still work to do. Those red lines between HQ units show that units are out of command range. Your Log Wiz bonus from your upper command units will not filter down to your divisions unless you keep them in command range. If you maintain units in range of their HQs, you can save 2/3 of their supply needs in addition to the bonus from your own Div Commander bonus.

Your units advancing into captured provinces are collecting abandoned Soviet supply there. This will keep your spearhead units in supply, but will not solve the issues of the 90% remainder of your army, because your supply hungry lead units will just eat them for themselves.

If you believe that usable supply only goes forward, then your theory says that these supplies have to travel all the way back to Berlin before they can switch to outgoing supply and return to the front lines. How many days at one province per day?

 

[Kovax]

The obvious problem shown in post #21 is that there is almost no infrastructure in the Great Priyapet Marshes, so any divisions you place there or immediately past it are going to suffer supply issues. You CANNOT drive a large force through there with the default infrastructure, so the best option is to go around it and leave minimal forces behind to contain and reduce the pocket. It also shows less than 100 Supplies in the stockpile, which means that there's practically nothing going INTO the supply system to reach the units at the front in another couple of weeks.

Infrastructure highways do work, I've used them in most of my campaigns, but you need to build them more-or-less where the supply lines are already going, not just anywhere. The system prioritizes routes which have 7 or better Infrastructure if the distance is similar, but it may route your supplies through a level 2 province if the distance is significantly shorter. If the carrying capacity is too low, it will attempt to use neighboring provinces (no matter how terrible the infrastructure) to bypass the bottleneck, but that's just more provinces eating that per-province transport cost and putting more strain on the provinces further back, so less reaching the front.

There's already a set of level 6-7 Infrastructure through major portions of the Soviet Union, so all you need to do is expand on what's already there, plus fix a few annoying bottleneck points. Bumping up the infrastructure in the couple of provinces directly below Lithuania is one such fix, as supply for any push to the north will rely on them. If you built IC in 1936, you should have sufficient Mechanical Practical experience to upgrade the infrastructure relatively quickly and cheaply, otherwise it's likely to be a problem.

In my last GER campaign, I occupied Poland in spring of 1939 (after using spies to hasten Anschluss and Munich) and upgraded two paths through it (one in the north, one further south) to level 10 all the way to the Soviet border. As soon as I moved units into the Soviet Union in mid-1940, I started boosting lines of infrastructure to 7-8 in order to support my advance 5-6 months in the future. I had troops in Moscow in late 1941, and almost no supply issues. Then again, I don't go all that heavy on armored or motorized units, which eat an exorbitant amount of supply as well as fuel. Those are merely the hardened tip of the spear, but the majority of a spear is the shaft, which is about what the Soviets got in that game.

 

[themousemaster]

Those are merely the hardened tip of the spear, but the majority of a spear is the shaft, which is about what the Soviets got in that game.

That's a good... point.

 

[50shadesofgreen]

I have FTM. Please can someone try this simple test in TFH?

Start a new 1936 game as Russia. Check out the single division in Zapadnaya Litsa. It sits at the end of a long supply trail to Moscow, passing through Murmansk. It is a fair way from any IC builds, so is a good place to test.
First delete all units in Murmansk, including the naval stuff as that gets in the way. Build a Corps HQ,, Army HQ, Theatre HQ in Kandalaksha and attach that to Moscow. Give these all the best logistics commanders and put a level 5 in the Army Group. Do not yet attach the Div in Z-P to this command structure ( I want that unit to start with a high supply demand).
Second. Delete all the supply stockpile ( eg console, then supplies -15000). Make supply production zero on the sliders in the production page.
Third, run the game quickly for about 20 days. Watching the supply map, you will quickly notice the map drain of supplies. The unit in Z-P will do quite well at soaking up up what is available, and will have a healthy stockpile. Every province south of Murmansk will be drained to zero supplies.
Four. Now for the fun. Add the Z-P division to the nearby corps and for good measure add a log wiz div commander. The supply draw of that division will drop dramatically.
Five. Run the game slowly for several turns and watch the excess supply from Z-P return back through Murmansk towards the HQs, which sit on the supply line. THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF RETURNING SUPPLIES.
Six. After 3 or 4 days, remove the divisonal log wiz, and detach the div from the corps again. This will skyrocket the divisions supply draw. Resume the game and watch the supply that was returning to Moscow reverse direction again and return to your division. THIS SHOWS THAT SUPPLIES CAN REVERSE DIRECTION.

 

[GarfunkeL]

4K supply stockpile is not enough by far, you should have built a lot more!

 

[Kovax]

4K supply stockpile is not enough by far, you should have built a lot more!

That's an understatement. If you manage to puppet the Soviet Union, the remaining Soviet divisions deep in Russia all the way to Vladivostok will eat every last bit of a maxed 100,000 Supply stockpile, despite pumping more than 50% of your IC into Supply production. Once those supplies reach their destination, the excess will return and overflow your stockpile. Until that process is over, most of your units throughout Europe will either be low or completely out of supply. 4000 Supplies is enough for a daily buffer, and that's about all.

 

[GarfunkeL]

As Germany, I never puppet countries - supply is one of the issues - and I try my best to keep my supply stockpile above 50k. Naturally that isn't always possible but after a big offensive, I have a quiet period, to repair units and rebuild the supply stockpile. For example, if you don't knock the Soviets out of the war with a Bitter Peace event by winter 1941, you might as well stop and let the supply catch-up, then resume in the spring. This also gives the AI some time to rebuild its defences, meaning you get a bit more enjoyable campaign instead of just rolling over mostly empty provinces.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

Hello guys,
sry for late reply, I am still playing

If you take a look at your last image you will quickly see that there is still work to do. Those red lines between HQ units show that units are out of command range. Your Log Wiz bonus from your upper command units will not filter down to your divisions unless you keep them in command range. If you maintain units in range of their HQs, you can save 2/3 of their supply needs in addition to the bonus from your own Div Commander bonus.

Your units advancing into captured provinces are collecting abandoned Soviet supply there. This will keep your spearhead units in supply, but will not solve the issues of the 90% remainder of your army, because your supply hungry lead units will just eat them for themselves.

If you believe that usable supply only goes forward, then your theory says that these supplies have to travel all the way back to Berlin before they can switch to outgoing supply and return to the front lines. How many days at one province per day?

@50shadesofgreen: Yes, youre right that I have a problem with my radio-ranges of the HQ. But this is not the main problem of my campaign, because I already had supply problems at the beginning of Operation Barbarossa. And also you have to consider that my advancing Panzer-Divisions have no supply-problems. So in a way you are right, but thats not the heart of the problem.

@Kovax

The obvious problem shown in post #21 is that there is almost no infrastructure in the Great Priyapet Marshes, so any divisions you place there or immediately past it are going to suffer supply issues. You CANNOT drive a large force through there with the default infrastructure, so the best option is to go around it and leave minimal forces behind to contain and reduce the pocket. It also shows less than 100 Supplies in the stockpile, which means that there's practically nothing going INTO the supply system to reach the units at the front in another couple of weeks.

Youre right, there is no Infra in this region. And therfore I had never big armies in this area. I do understand the basics of the supply system of HoI3 (or I think I do) and its for me realistic and understandable that its a great challenge to supply the the advancing units esp. in areas with low infra. But you have a look at #post21 you will see, that i.e. Kiev is only 11 provinces from a FULLY 100% infra away! And the provinces between have 60-80% infra. AND I GET NO SUPLLY KIEV. I had remove every unit, because they wre starving to death. Thats the point I dont get! The same if you a look at the ODESSA fontline. There is no green supply-line, the units are starving to death so I cant use them for the attack on Odessa, although the units are near to the Hungarian, Rumanian and German infra.

@Kovax

Infrastructure highways do work, I've used them in most of my campaigns, but you need to build them more-or-less where the supply lines are already going, not just anywhere. The system prioritizes routes which have 7 or better Infrastructure if the distance is similar, but it may route your supplies through a level 2 province if the distance is significantly shorter. If the carrying capacity is too low, it will attempt to use neighboring provinces (no matter how terrible the infrastructure) to bypass the bottleneck, but that's just more provinces eating that per-province transport cost and putting more strain on the provinces further back, so less reaching the front.

Thats what I have learned about the supply-sytem of HoI3. And I did it like you so far, but at the moment the building of the infra had no effect, it will take some time (only aout 2 months after starting Barbarossa). So I dont cannot say anything about the "supply highways".

@Kovax

In my last GER campaign, I occupied Poland in spring of 1939 (after using spies to hasten Anschluss and Munich) and upgraded two paths through it (one in the north, one further south) to level 10 all the way to the Soviet border. As soon as I moved units into the Soviet Union in mid-1940, I started boosting lines of infrastructure to 7-8 in order to support my advance 5-6 months in the future. I had troops in Moscow in late 1941, and almost no supply issues. Then again, I don't go all that heavy on armored or motorized units, which eat an exorbitant amount of supply as well as fuel. Those are merely the hardened tip of the spear, but the majority of a spear is the shaft, which is about what the Soviets got in that game.

I have ALL of Poland with a 100% infra. Please now have a look at my #post1: (translation: the corps is within a 100% infra with no movement or combat a gets NO supply for weeks!) That was the reason why I started this thread, by the way.

So sorry, Kovax, I really appreaciate you knowledge, but I still dont understand the basics! And precautionary: at the beginning I had enough supplies in stock (after #post 21 this is a really problem, i admit...I dont know how my stockpile went don like this within a couple of weeks :-(

So please dont judge me: but I still have a problem to understand how the supply-routes work. In my game I can only rely on the convoi-routes via baltic sea and black sea. Without these convois there IS NO CHANCE to supply my troops, although I have 100% infra in ALL POLAND and improve the infra in the soviet provinces immediately after the occupation... I am still helpless...

Thx for your answers.

 

[50shadesofgreen]

I think we need a bit more information?

If you started the campaign with just over 10k of supplies in stockpile, then how many days were you EXPECTING that to last during the campaign? Bearing in mind you were producing zero supplies through industry yourself and had no way of knowing how much enemy supply you would overrun.

I don't understand what is your purpose in building infra in Poland etc. There's zero reason to max out infra with your strategy. It's like having a wider and wider bore water pipe in a drought - it will do nothing if there's no actual water to pump through it. Better to have laid off the infra builds and just produce supplies instead.

Thirdly, you are expecting your speartips around Stalingrad to overrun Soviet supplies. These supplies will filter back to Berlin and then reverse to supply your starving units around Kiev/Odessa. How many days will such supplies take in their move back and forth?

I think if you can answer these questions, then we'll be better equipped to point out what is going wrong here.

 

[djconklin71]

Supply is REQUESTED by the individual units (the system sends somewhat more than what's required, and the surplus is sent back if it's not used for regular upkeep or reinforcement), but can be consumed by other units along the way. In your example, the unit moving forward would cause the supply pipeline to extend, or possibly to be redrawn from scratch if the unit shifted laterally and the supplies already enroute are no longer on the path. Any other unit moving into the supply pipeline could use some or all of those supplies, as I discovered to my dismay when GER sent over 100 "gourmet" brigades to sit on my supply lines and eat all my supplies and fuel, without advancing to the front to help.

I've suffered from occasional hiccups in the supply system, such as when a garrison unit a few provinces off the regular supply lines was getting NO supply after over a year in place. The only solution was to move it to an adjacent province, where it drew supplies normally.

The only way I can think of to view captured supplies would be to use the supply map overlay and check the province that's been taken over before the end of the day, when the surplus will be sent back to the capital. You would then have to subtract your own unit's supplies that it brough with it to determine how much was captured.

If you want to witness true supply insanity, try puppeting the SU. When the SU surrenders, all of its remaining military units will suddenly need to draw supply from your own capital (if it's connected by land). You'll see your 100,000 stockpiled supplies vanish into the system and drop to 0 in a few weeks, despite your efforts to produce supplies to prevent the crash, and then suddenly ALL of the Soviet supply stockpile will begin to show up in your capital, followed a couple of weeks later by the excess supplies sent to all of those Soviet miltary units, and your stockpile will go from 0 to 100,000 again, with plenty of excess wasted. Enjoy.

I get wild swings, as the Russians, in peacetime!