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It sounds especially dirty if you're playing the Commonwealth nations oO

Haha of course it is, but it is used all the time..With one industry bonus you can keep juggling it to research the every industry tech giving the bonus to all other commonwealth countries which then again help the other commonwealth countries and it goes on and on. It is a well known exploit in MP games, but to the SP guys out there the tips i will give you is that it is called 'juggling' and it can only be used with generic bonuses like industry and armor techs. It can't be used for land doctrines for example.

Other than that you can figure it out yourself. I'm sure the dev's know this exploit.
 
You are absolutely correct, they have fixed the basic inf equipment spam from pre patch. Although if you look at your numbers 1936 inf equipment with 1944 arty you still get more soft attack and less IC cost than 1944 inf EQ and starting arty. They have just made it worth while to upgrade your inf EQ. There is still no reason to not just make near pure arty divisions with enough inf to have some org playing most majors in the game. I'm not requesting a re-tweak of any cost or soft attack numbers. What i am requesting is a division limit on artillery in my hypothetical 'historic MP button' that i was discussing earlier

I have to disagree, my belief is that numbers should ( and can ) be balanced without artificial limits like that. Adding an artificial hard-cap IMHO makes the game less interesting because then everyone will just go for that hard-cap since it's a no brainier choice to do so.

You just have to look at the reason why real divisions were not made up almost entirely of artillery. The main issue is that they require a lot of pretty expensive and heavy ammunition to operate, which limits their usefulness where supply is a constraint. Another reason is that they get less effective against dug in units, or suffer diminishing returns if you go overboard and mass them too much.

Another reason why artillery is powerful in HoI4 is because ORG regain does not scale of max ORG like it did in previous HoI games, which means that an artillery heavy unit with 20 max org have similar flat regain rates that a 80 max org infantry heavy division does, and thus reach it's max org faster.

Yet a third reason is how damage which overshoots defense/breakthrough does quadruple damage, so stacking artillery in 40 width murder divisions get seriously OP.


There have also been numerous suggestions to improve artillery the last few months, some of them pretty interesting:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/artillery-spg-improvements.990119/

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-new-approach-to-artillery.988145/

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/suggestion-production-of-ammunition.989506/


But even re-balancing tweaks should be able to help further to get them where they should be.

If Infantry EQ for example both gave you more SA per IC and more SA per supply there would be no reason to spam artillery in lower supply theaters like China or Africa for example.
 
So onto some other broken aspects that are imbalanced in the game...
Now i know Paradox has shown they care 90% on single player games, i would love them to try to play MP with their community. To talk and experience MP games, to understand that majority of MP games that go past 1937 are team speak games with large rule sets. To create balance. The fact that there are games with 30+ rules, some with 4 page google documents etc etc. Its insanity, these rule sets are made via experience in hundreds of games to try to create balance between the 3 factions to try to create a historically focused games that last more than 30 mins. Now a example of a quiet universal MP rule across all decent games is the 1 Arty/AT/AA per 10 width division rule. Here are a few others...No Coups, No unwanted political boosting of players, no political boosting of AI, no trading for resources that are not needed eg. boosting Frances factories Why are they well loved and universal? Because without it the game breaks beyond belief. In my opinion should be included in a tickbox for MP games to make it impossible for people to break these rules.

Being able to set several "house rules" as game options is for sure something we want (for our own MP as well) and we'll probably do it some time in the future. We consider work on AI more important right now though.

Haha of course it is, but it is used all the time..With one industry bonus you can keep juggling it to research the every industry tech giving the bonus to all other commonwealth countries which then again help the other commonwealth countries and it goes on and on. It is a well known exploit in MP games, but to the SP guys out there the tips i will give you is that it is called 'juggling' and it can only be used with generic bonuses like industry and armor techs. It can't be used for land doctrines for example.

Other than that you can figure it out yourself. I'm sure the dev's know this exploit.

actually not sure if we have something that easy to exploit reported. if you dont want to tell everyone how it works PM me details so I can check with the database. We have actually put in some more anti cheating stuff to help the MP community (vs ppl hexediting and such), but probably am not going to cover that in diary in detail because I dont want to turn it into a competition to beat ;)
 
actually not sure if we have something that easy to exploit reported. if you dont want to tell everyone how it works PM me details so I can check with the database. We have actually put in some more anti cheating stuff to help the MP community (vs ppl hexediting and such), but probably am not going to cover that in diary in detail because I dont want to turn it into a competition to beat

It should be in your database. See this thread (which was closed on the grounds that the exploit was already reported in this thread). See also this thread.
 
Ironwang, mostly entirely agree. The MP exploits need to be addressed.

I think check boxes for rules would be great. No unwanted coup/boost, no non focus War before 1937-9, major must keep ideology, all would be candidates.

I think you are on the money with the Axis majors needing an overhaul, aka they need to be brought down to earth with malus and gating because the generic is too strong.

I disagree on principle with rules limiting division design. I want 15 art 5 inf to be buildable, but I want it to be so bad, that no one would use it. In the same way with fleet you have de facto limits on # of CVs, and there are ideal ratios to Capital/CA/Screens.

Mechanics of the template components should drive division design, not arbitrary division width to equipment used ratio mechanics (IE one line art/aa/at per 10 width).

If people want Tanks in their infantry divisions; there should be a counter to that strat.

I think the big thing is to not let one division, fleet, airwing become THE division, fleet or airwing. The eternal Rock, Paper, Scissors meta of RTS needs to play a role here.
If people start putting tanks in inf divisions, then AT guns should be cheap enough to produce enough of (with foresight) to stall out a tank push...over time. If AT guns become the thing, then soft divisions should become popular, then divisions with high SA should work to counter those, which leads us back to tanks in inf divisions. Thats how it should works in base terms.

I am not certain if it isn't happening because the balance isn't there, or if there is a general unwillingness by the MP community to iterate through strats to counter things like space marines and develop a mutating meta. Instead it seems like people would rather know what the definitive "best" division and strat is, then play that division and ban anything that deviates (All that said, it is disappointing land combat works in a way that makes 1x 40 width > 2x 20 width).

Total Aside:
Also, I think in a "Historical" MP game, Germany should be forced to take Rhineland first (Especially if he is a good player). World tension can be gamed too well by good players (and if you are playing MP with people on Axis majors who dont know how to gate tension properly then it is likely a Allies/Commie victory unless they are even worse).
 
@podcat

If it is not a secret, can we expect more economic stuff in the future (maybe not right in the next DLC), some diplomatic depth and everything like that?
And another question - are there plans to expand major focus trees for more ideological paths for really ahistorical stuff to happen, controlled by player?
 
@podcat

If it is not a secret, can we expect more economic stuff in the future (maybe not right in the next DLC), some diplomatic depth and everything like that?
And another question - are there plans to expand major focus trees for more ideological paths for really ahistorical stuff to happen, controlled by player?
Gonna turn around and be sneaky and ask what you mean by economic stuff exactly. Civilian, military, production?

Yes also we have long term plans to expand major countries as some of them can be a bit restrictive
 
Gonna turn around and be sneaky and ask what you mean by economic stuff exactly. Civilian, military, production?
More connection between civil economic and military one. "Guns or butter" dilemma. I understand that HOI4 is a game of one war but even this war has become economical disaster for every winner except USA. Current "consumer factories" mechanic works a bit strange - people stay in the state with fully mobilized economic as much as it is needed, and it doesn't lead to any negative consequences in development.


Yes also we have long term plans to expand major countries as some of them can be a bit restrictive
Glad to hear this - right now fascist Russia with collectivist national spirits and Stalin's constitution feels a bit strange. France feels like the most interesting major because of available choice.
 
Glad to hear this - right now fascist Russia with collectivist national spirits and Stalin's constitution feels a bit strange. France feels like the most interesting major because of available choice.

That's the impression I was under when I first started playing, but I soon realised that, once France's choice was done, there was nothing left to do.
 
Gonna turn around and be sneaky and ask what you mean by economic stuff exactly. Civilian, military, production?

Yes also we have long term plans to expand major countries as some of them can be a bit restrictive

This is absolutely necessary for quality of life in the pacific war, but will Japan get increased ALUMINUMUM production? Historically there was quite a bit of bauxite in Manchuria and Palau, and a Japan without aluminum cannot hope to hold a candle to USAs aircraft with the horrible resource malus
 
More connection between civil economic and military one. "Guns or butter" dilemma. I understand that HOI4 is a game of one war but even this war has become economical disaster for every winner except USA. Current "consumer factories" mechanic works a bit strange - people stay in the state with fully mobilized economic as much as it is needed, and it doesn't lead to any negative consequences in development..

i think the current system sort of work as long as there is buildup to a war and then war, but it doesnt really model what happens after or the inter-war period. If we do a time extension or the like it will be a necessity. So I guess that sort of answers when it would make sense to develop?
As for economic distaster I think several of the commonwealth nations really got an economic upswing after the war also
 
Gonna turn around and be sneaky and ask what you mean by economic stuff exactly. Civilian, military, production?

Yes also we have long term plans to expand major countries as some of them can be a bit restrictive
Hopefully this DLC is optional. I feel like a lot of players are open to alternative choices to a degree, in that it is somewhat plausible. But a democratic / communist Germany is just to wild for me. By 1936, the Hitler Regime was pretty much accepted and I don't see a change in government say from fascist to something else as plausible. Hopefully this is DLC is entirely optional or rethought of. Now if you wanted to create a new improved tree for Major's that had somewhat historical plausibility , I would be all for that. For example a BUF/Mosley led U.K.
 
Hopefully this DLC is optional. I feel like a lot of players are open to alternative choices to a degree, in that it is somewhat plausible. But a democratic / communist Germany is just to wild for me. By 1936, the Hitler Regime was pretty much accepted and I don't see a change in government say from fascist to something else as plausible. Hopefully this is DLC is entirely optional or rethought of. Now if you wanted to create a new improved tree for Major's that had somewhat historical plausibility , I would be all for that. For example a BUF/Mosley led U.K.

Well, all DLC are optional, but what about this dev diary leads you to have the concerns you express? A player can already make Germany democratic or communist in the vanilla game -- just recruit the right demagogue with the PP from Rhineland. Germany starts with 20% support for both democracy and communism, so you should be able to flip ideologies by mid-1937. From your post, I realize you dislike that mechanic, but it's already in the vanilla game, and doesn't require any DLC to enable that option.
 
Thanks for all the info @podcat ! I have a two part question, and a follow up:

What countries will be in this patch/DLC? Just because someone didn't join the Axis doesn't mean they couldn't.

So, is there an upgraded focus tree and stuff for Finland? Spain? Turkey?

Also, may or may not be off-topic. When will we get towed arty/AA/AT? (as battalions, not support options) While not as fast as armored versions, I would think that they would be at least half as fast, and a reason to upgrade infantry to motorized, for example. Right now, there's no reason for motorized unless it is in conjunction with armor, but certainly late war many divisions were fully motorized even if not armored.
 
Being able to set several "house rules" as game options is for sure something we want (for our own MP as well) and we'll probably do it some time in the future. We consider work on AI more important right now though.



actually not sure if we have something that easy to exploit reported. if you dont want to tell everyone how it works PM me details so I can check with the database. We have actually put in some more anti cheating stuff to help the MP community (vs ppl hexediting and such), but probably am not going to cover that in diary in detail because I dont want to turn it into a competition to beat ;)


Podcat im sure the programmer working on the AI isnt the same guy who would implement the "house rules" game options and interface, just as the focus tree guy isnt the one working on the AI :). As we all know the AI is something that will slowly improve over the life of HOI4 itself, dont feel like waiting another few years for it :/

Also another person linked the threads showing what research juggling is, but basically. You use a research bonus on lets say 1939 medium tanks, wait till it has 2-1 day left to finish the research, then select a different research on the same slot eg. 1934 medium tanks. Then finish the 1939 medium tanks on a different research slot, taking 2-4 days. Then swap the 1934 heavy tanks research to then 1941 medium tanks.

You have now got the research bonus for 1941 medium tanks. This can be rinsed and repeated to get modern tanks in late 1940, or 1941.

Also another massive bug is divisions getting convoy raided, as the naval battle is raging. You select the divisions and move them to any other friendly port. The divisions escape without any losses and you only loss a handful of convoys. Nearly every Germany in MP uses this to get their tanks into Africa, making allied naval supremacy in the Mediterranean near useless.