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First of all, happy hollydays gentelmen.

Talking on bussines:

1. I offered Austria to exchange Luxemburg for 3 german provinces when Austria was my ally and she refuses. Since she is not my ally, and in order to keep the peace, I offer Austria to exchage Anhalt and Wurzburg for Luxemburg and Koln (I will also pay a little money if needed). This offer will last till tomorrow at 19h CET. If Austria doesn't agree , I'll feel free to do what I want with these provinces. This is a very reasonable offer that shows my good will in order to keep the peace, so if Austria doesn't agree I will think she's trying to damage Spanish's interests.

2. I said I will return Luxemburg to Austria and I'm trying to do it but, if Austria refuses previous offer and also refuses to recover it any longer, I won't crush his rebels anymore. So, if Austria doesn't want to take Luxemburg at the beggining of the next session, I will pay a compensation and I'll keep Luxemburg. This case, I'll consider I respected previous treaty and I won't like to hear any complainings about it. We played almost 30 years last session and I think it has been time enough for Austria to take Luxemburg back if she wanted to do it.
 
Ulschmidt said:
took me ages, but finally, Oe's fixed.

I posted the edited file in the stats site.

Session next thursday, 27th. Post your edits, please, gentlemen.

I'll be wanting money this time.
Click to expand...

Great job Uls. You're becomming an edit master.

Deflation please (a bankrupt is comming) :p .

By the way, I have been looking for stats and I realised that OE's badboy is 6'8. I think it must be due to the provinces he lost last session. I don't want to damage OE but I think that, in order to fair play, you should increase his badboy to the level he should have.

As you're becomming a edit master, maybe you have done it yet ;) .
 
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Duque Alesandro said:
Great job Uls. You're becomming an edit master.

Deflation please (a bankrupt is comming) :p .

By the way, I have been looking for stats and I realised that OE's badboy is 6'8. I think it must be due to the provinces he lost last session. I don't want to damage OE but I think that, in order to fair play, you should increase his badboy to the level he should have.

As you're becomming a edit master, maybe you have done it yet ;) .
Click to expand...

It took me more than 4 hours to edit it all, no fun at all! thx Gaia a friend of mine helped me about how to deal with free nations: that is declaring war to all of them, saving, editing provinces and Oe occupying their capitals, anexing them, saving again, taking off new armies and fleets, saving again. about the bb, i think i lost myself there so I edited what Oe has at the end of our session. Good point, i'll check it.
 
National_Cause said:
Check your ICQ inboxes gentleman.



Just for the record, I don't think I intentionally acquired a monopoly in your COTs. Sure, I was trading aggressively in your COTs but I am everywhere else as well. You must realize that you have four COTs and I have none. Add that to the fact that I have nearly no knowledge of any COTs outside of Europe. I was intent on making the best use of my merchants with the means available to me. As you said last session, you noticed my economic progress and applauded me for it.

Now, I merely want to explain myself. First, we had no agreement regarding trade and COTs last session, so I felt free to trade agressively. On the same note, I understand your annoyance by this and your decision to embargo me. But let me present you with this situation as I remember it. Mecklemburg was nearly emptied of your merchants, I believe you had one or two placed there. I had perhaps 3-4, with some AI nation having 5. Veneto for a while displayed the same numbers iirc. I felt that, for whatever reason, you were neglecting trade and I decided to remove AI merchants. If by some chance I gained a monopoly, which I did on two occassions, I ceased trading in those COTs for you to dislodge me. You'll notice that once you gained a monopoly in Danzig and Liguria I stopped trading there as well.

My point, sir, is that if you weren't going to compete against AI nations in Mecklemburg (or perhaps against human players in Veneto) then I was. If I could place only 5 merchants in your COT without gaining a monopoly I would, but the game mechanics granted me a monopoly and so there I stood. If you believe me mistaken or misguided by all of this then say so.

Finally I will say this. You control 4 COT by virtue of conquest, I control none. These are the cards dealt to me and I make no issue of your good fortune. But I will not slink away and stop trading in your COTs simply because you ask me to do so. Quite honestly, you control nearly half the COTs that I can trade in. Ceasing my business there is not an option for me. I will continue to trade agressively and pursue my interests but I will do my best not to monopolize your COTs. If somehow this results in an embargo by yourself upon me then so be it.
Click to expand...

sigh. so be it.
 
The Swede-Austro Pact of 1587.


1. Sweden has rights on West and East Pommerania.

2. NAP between Sweden and Austria until 1650.

3. This treaty can be extended verbally.

[X] Kingdom of Austria

[ ] Kingdom of Sweden.

and this one?
 
Oe had 23 bb points in 1560. I'll apply the following estimation: 1bb point is removed every 3 years, as we played for 27, we have to take off around 9bb points, 23-9 = 14.

thank you, Duque, problem solved.
 
BGW said:
I won't be able to make it Thursday too.... maybe postpone?
Click to expand...

if we lack 2 nations, we will postpone. However Rosas might play, would you accept a sub in your country if we found one? of course you can give instructions.
 
Duque Alesandro said:
First of all, happy hollydays gentelmen.

Talking on bussines:

1. I offered Austria to exchange Luxemburg for 3 german provinces when Austria was my ally and she refuses. Since she is not my ally, and in order to keep the peace, I offer Austria to exchage Anhalt and Wurzburg for Luxemburg and Koln (I will also pay a little money if needed). This offer will last till tomorrow at 19h CET. If Austria doesn't agree , I'll feel free to do what I want with these provinces. This is a very reasonable offer that shows my good will in order to keep the peace, so if Austria doesn't agree I will think she's trying to damage Spanish's interests.

2. I said I will return Luxemburg to Austria and I'm trying to do it but, if Austria refuses previous offer and also refuses to recover it any longer, I won't crush his rebels anymore. So, if Austria doesn't want to take Luxemburg at the beggining of the next session, I will pay a compensation and I'll keep Luxemburg. This case, I'll consider I respected previous treaty and I won't like to hear any complainings about it. We played almost 30 years last session and I think it has been time enough for Austria to take Luxemburg back if she wanted to do it.
Click to expand...

Keep Luxemburg, I'm not interested.
 
those trade disputes gave us in russia interesting idea.
to sell our maps that is.
russian maps are of finest quality! Some very lucrative eastern trade centers are charted in.

we can start bids at 1000 ducats?
 
Ulschmidt said:
Every campaign is different from each other, your standard analysis is, as i pointed out a couple of days ago, biased and dogmatic (and inflationist, it seems).

Alba, Farnese or Spinola are just a factor. Many other variables interact. Once one studies every aspect, one can make conclusions about relative power, advantages or disadvantages.

In this campaign, as far as I understood, Spain felt disappointed about Austria getting some of Italy, Austria felt disappointed about Spain attacking some German minors and the Netherlands policy. It is biased to blame Austria, and biased to call it silly about the venetian policy for some reasons i won't reveal here after this campaign is finished. ;)
Click to expand...

Well if you get 2 out of 2 cots in Italy basically hurting Spain, Spain was smart to do the same to you in Germany. "some of italy" is actually the richest part. Not only you get an increased 2 merchants per year due to COTs (and possible another 2 due to monopolies), COTs are also worth 3-4 mainland provinces. The "some" that you hold, produces so much wealth as the part Spain holds (plus the 2 provinces that it does not).

Spain holds 9 provinces in Italy. You hold 6. Imagine that Rome and the other minor belong to Spain. That would make Spain hold a total of 11 provinces. But since you hold 2 COTs it basically makes the amount of provinces you hold jump to 10 - since as i said, one COT produces wealth equivalent of 3 provinces (or more).

And when i spoke previously in my other post i wasnt speaking only about the leaders but also about many other factors. But if you want to keep pressing the same key to say whatever i say is too biased, dogmatic, or what not, without even giving a proper answer then do so. However, i cannot finish this post without saying that you actually made me laugh when you said "Once one studies every aspect, one can make conclusions about relative power, advantages or disadvantages.". You spoke to me as if i was an ignorant and as if i did not know what i was speaking about, but quite modestly, and without wanting to look too arrogant, there are few people around the multiplayer forums that know so much about the game as i do. I have never played with you but seeing from your join date you seem to be too green, and thus i believe you are not included in the group of the "few people" i spoke of.
 
grabah said:
those trade disputes gave us in russia interesting idea.
to sell our maps that is.
russian maps are of finest quality! Some very lucrative eastern trade centers are charted in.

we can start bids at 1000 ducats?
Click to expand...

Sir, I may be interested. Check your ICQ inbox for offers.
 
BurningEGO said:
Well if you get 2 out of 2 cots in Italy basically hurting Spain, Spain was smart to do the same to you in Germany. "some of italy" is actually the richest part. Not only you get an increased 2 merchants per year due to COTs (and possible another 2 due to monopolies), COTs are also worth 3-4 mainland provinces. The "some" that you hold, produces so much wealth as the part Spain holds (plus the 2 provinces that it does not).

Spain holds 9 provinces in Italy. You hold 6. Imagine that Rome and the other minor belong to Spain. That would make Spain hold a total of 11 provinces. But since you hold 2 COTs it basically makes the amount of provinces you hold jump to 10 - since as i said, one COT produces wealth equivalent of 3 provinces (or more).

And when i spoke previously in my other post i wasnt speaking only about the leaders but also about many other factors. But if you want to keep pressing the same key to say whatever i say is too biased, dogmatic, or what not, without even giving a proper answer then do so. However, i cannot finish this post without saying that you actually made me laugh when you said "Once one studies every aspect, one can make conclusions about relative power, advantages or disadvantages.". You spoke to me as if i was an ignorant and as if i did not know what i was speaking about, but quite modestly, and without wanting to look too arrogant, there are few people around the multiplayer forums that know so much about the game as i do. I have never played with you but seeing from your join date you seem to be too green, and thus i believe you are not included in the group of the "few people" i spoke of.
Click to expand...

are you mad at me? it wasn't my intention. :rolleyes:
 
BurningEGO said:
Well if you get 2 out of 2 cots in Italy basically hurting Spain, Spain was smart to do the same to you in Germany. "some of italy" is actually the richest part. Not only you get an increased 2 merchants per year due to COTs (and possible another 2 due to monopolies), COTs are also worth 3-4 mainland provinces. The "some" that you hold, produces so much wealth as the part Spain holds (plus the 2 provinces that it does not).
Click to expand...

Thx.

I thoug this movement could convince Uls to stop considering me as a stupid vassal and reach some kind of global agreement to set our influence zones in Europe, but he preferred to break our alliance.
 
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Ulschmidt said:
It took me more than 4 hours to edit it all, no fun at all! thx Gaia a friend of mine helped me about how to deal with free nations: that is declaring war to all of them, saving, editing provinces and Oe occupying their capitals, anexing them, saving again, taking off new armies and fleets, saving again. about the bb, i think i lost myself there so I edited what Oe has at the end of our session. Good point, i'll check it.
Click to expand...

Hey, I wasn't joking. I was really giving thanks to you for the great job you're doing :) .

PD: I know Casper is a good friend of you but he doesn't seem to be able to rule OE.
 
Duque Alesandro said:
I thoug this movement could convince Uls to stop considering me as a stupid vassal and reach some kind of global agreement to set our influence zones in Europe, but he preferred to break our alliance.
Click to expand...

Well,

Let's see, Ego is right when he said Austria is more dependent in most of the campaigns being played or played in the past. This is due to French-Oe's evident pressure on Central Europe. But... let's contemplate facts, as France was neutralized quite early, and Oe thought it was more important to care of economy. Why not advancing in what Austria and many other countries will have to do in the future?, that is, weakening Spain.

I think of the austrian-spanish alliance as a symbiosis. Both countries needs each other to stop France and the Ottomans. But Austria's on a dilemma. If Spain gets enough ManPower, huge incomes and good land/naval position, it's obvious Spain won't need this symbiosis anymore under these conditions, letting Austria to get rid of a pissed-off French-Oe alliance. She'll probably give some money away to keep Austria loyal and let them entertain France and Oe, but she'll never intervene in wars which would make her inflate. Spain just need to secure the Netherlands, and never let them revolt, to secure Italy, european COTs, Manpower, colonization, every COT all around the globe and to hypertech properly. (it reminds me the developped-underdevelopped countries issue)

A strong Spain would never let naval competitors to delevop properly, England and Netherlands would have little chance to grow efficiently. And this is key for them to archive victory and defeat France in 1800.

Under these precepts, Austria has to choose equilibrium, always. Diplomacy will be a vital tool. What kind of diplomacy? Austria should control spanish hunger the best it can (subterfuge, candies, occupancy of the wealthiest italian provinces, occupancy of high MP provinces). Austria should never close french-oe diplomatic contact (transfer of french cores, Flanders before being transfered to Spain, NAPs, etc). If Spain grows too much, Austria loses, if France or OE grows too much into Central Europe, Austria loses as well. Austria is the most important country in order to balance a game, it'll never win more than 350 a month, but She plays a vital role, switching here and there depending who's the strongest and the weakest. It is false that helping Spain as Austria is a win-win strategy and that Spain is completely independent of Austria. I don't believe in eternal alliances, less in emotions when playing a game, I think in term of long term playability which would maximize my own fun, and probably, but not necessary, by doing so it would maximize the fun of everyone.

This is crap though, let's return to the game: letting Spain or France to have so many COTs at the beginning is a bad strategy, letting both to have MP, it's even worse. It is obvious Spain was going to object about this anytime, however trying to do this when she's close to bankrupcies, Farnese's death date and England-France's awakening is optimal. Austria's mission would be accomplished this way, and it would let us have fun wars since nobody would feel inferior or superior enough against anybody. If we have a huge Spain, or a huge France, or a huge OE, in the future, a huge England or a huge Netherlands, some of us would probably sit and pray not to be DoWed the whole game, the game would simply convert in a hyperteching race which would remind me to Civ4. =/ I take my risk and live with it. Sorry Duque, I never said, and I didn't even think Spain was dumb, I just played my role, a role Fnuco gave me from the starting, it is nothing personal.

I was going to break our alliance in 1600 anyway, but our misunderstanding in our pact made it happen earlier which isn't bad for Spain, but risky for Austria. I'm feeling like Dr. Evil revealing its diabolical plan. :D

About Germany, I prefer you to have german, non catholic cores to make your hyperteching slower and your stability expensive; cost of this for me: more MP for Spain.
 
Therion said:
Folks, do you think we're playing tomorrow?
Click to expand...

little chance, no-one is replying to my PMs, so have a plan B for tonight. :(

we can't play without England and Sweden. If we can't get subs, it'll be better to skip until sunday.
 
Your symbiosis is a funny one i must say. Not letting Spain grow too strong? Then its not a symbiosis at all.
 
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