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Please expand on this most worthwhile and erudite thought of yours
The problem with lefties of a certain type is that, having convinced themselves that what they believe in is true, they then believe that everyone who disagrees is either evil or stupid and therefore can neither be convinced nor argued with.
They then wonder why so many people continue running around with such wrong opinions - even when they have it absolutely right (as is the case here, the post they refer to is 100% apologist and I can name with almost complete certainty which book the original poster got their ideas from, being: "The Fabrication of Australian History", which builds out of some sloppiness on the part of Australian historians an entire conspiracy by historians to lie about Australia's colonisation).
 
The problem with lefties of a certain type is that, having convinced themselves that what they believe in is true, they then believe that everyone who disagrees is either evil or stupid and therefore can neither be convinced nor argued with.
They then wonder why so many people continue running around with such wrong opinions - even when they have it absolutely right (as is the case here, the post they refer to is 100% apologist and I can name with almost complete certainty which book the original poster got their ideas from, being: "The Fabrication of Australian History", which builds out of some sloppiness on the part of Australian historians an entire conspiracy by historians to lie about Australia's colonisation).
Ah, give him a day or two to reply, hm?

Also is it this one that you mean? I couldn't find anything under "Fabrication of Australian history" but this one seems quite in line with the points made

 
Ah, give him a day or two to reply, hm?

Also is it this one that you mean? I couldn't find anything under "Fabrication of Australian history" but this one seems quite in line with the points made


In a sense you're right - at the same time I found the original comment simply unhelpful whatever the response.

That's the book - mixed up the As in my head.
 
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It's true that there is a certain emphasis amongst some of the more shrill activists that the European invasion was some sort D-Day orchestrated with the same level of planning and intent, which ignores how contingent colonisation (in Australia and elsewhere) was. I think that's about all we agree on.

Native Australians absolutely had a clear system of landownership. It was extremely atomised by our standards, but it existed. Given that nothing was written down, nearly all of our knowledge of what each "band" (grouping of people, up to 50 iirc) owned is lost, hence why these days we refer to Aboriginal "nations" (i.e. language groups) rather than any kind of owned land or state. True - they roamed within their individial area, but the boundaries were clear and enforced.

It is true that the Aboriginals loved the tomahawks and dogs that the Europeans brought, but all was not quiet on the Australian Frontier. I'd encourage you to have a read of John Connor's book "Australian Frontier Wars". You'll find an awful lot of fighting and quite a bit of killing (and for the record, I don't very much subscribe to the emphasis upon "massacres" others have). "Scraps" by the standards of Waterloo they might be, but for the Aboriginals on the receiving end of colonisation it was life and death and they took it very seriously as you will read.
I did not say that that there was no concept of landownership at all, just that it was very different to European standards.

As far as I understand there were no permanent fixed settlements in areas inhabited by natives in Australia. Instead there were proprietary tribal areas which were protected by that tribe for foraging and hunting. I believe that specific areas had a spiritual element of importance to particular tribes also.

When the Brits first settled in these lands they were of course not aware of local customs and practices. Those boundaries were certainly not clear to the Brits. There was no intentional overarching plan to ignore and trample over natives ways of life. The strong missionary movement, which albeit was not effective in Australia, is clear evidence that the British view of natives was generally that they were our moral equals (equally fallen before God). Legally the Myall Creek incident shows that settlers would be tried and executed for crimes committed against natives.

The vast majority of settler-native conflicts in Australia were caused from private citizens conflicting with specific natives. When stockmen had their possessions raided and stolen by aboriginals they would take matters often into their own hands and carry out reprisals usually ending in bloodshed. This was the cause for the vast majority of settler-native conflicts. I am sure Mr Connor's books elaborates on these conflicts in fine depth. As far as I am aware there were no centrally organised co-ordinated military activities against natives.
 
The strong missionary movement, which albeit was not effective in Australia, is clear evidence that the British view of natives was generally that they were our moral equals (equally fallen before God).

What?

How in all hells did you come to the conclusion that missionary movements (especially the anglo kind, eg the one with boarding schools and further deculturation) are a sign of viewing people as your equals, not your lessers?

Missionary movements are one of the earliest and most destructive forms of imperialism, the erasure of the Other's culture and grounding. To spin them into something not only benevolent, but indicating some equality between coloniser and colonized is an amazing twisting of reality.

You do not need to moralize to your moral equals. You do not need to destroy their morality and religion, and impose yours upon them. You do that to people you think are below you, and in need of saving.
 
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What?

How in all hells did you come to the conclusion that missionary movements (especially the anglo kind, eg the one with boarding schools and further deculturation) are a sign of viewing people as your equals, not your lessers?

Missionary movements are one of the earliest and most destructive forms of imperialism, the erasure of the Other's culture and grounding. To spin them into something not only benevolent, but indicating some equality between coloniser and colonized is an amazing twisting of reality.

You do not need to moralize to your moral equals. You do not need to destroy their morality and religion, and impose yours upon them. You do that to people you think are below you, and in need of saving.
And how many people preach to dogs and cats, again?

AKA I think your reply misses a key distinction between 'wrong' and 'lesser'. You preach to people who you think are wrong and could be right, either because you think they are equal, or because you think they are equal enough to benefit from your greater clarity of mind. If they are truly lesser it is hopeless and you might as well not try.
 
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And how many people preach to dogs and cats, again?

AKA I think your reply misses a key distinction between 'wrong' and 'lesser'. You preach to people who you think are wrong and could be right, either because you think they are equal, or because you think they are equal enough to benefit from your greater clarity of mind. If they are truly lesser it is hopeless and you might as well not try.
Churches were not egalitarian organizations, Avernite. The concept of "equal" merely referred to the acknowledgment that the natives had souls. Not that they had, like, any rights at all to property, autonomy, respect, or choice.

The conversion efforts among primitive peoples intended to fill the bottommost rung of colonial society with obedient serfs and peons, so that the fruit of their labor could be first taxed by the state and the church, and then appropriated in full by the land owning castes. It had nothing at all to do with seeing these people as "equals" to anyone in a legal sense.

Missionaries might have frequently been emphatic people who cared about their flock's well being, but the church organizations and society at large really only had one place for converted darkies, and that was at the absolute bottom, below the lowest of the white Christians, with zero empathy given to their well being or their needs.
 
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Churches were not egalitarian organizations, Avernite. The concept of "equal" merely referred to the acknowledgment that the natives had souls. Not that they had, like, any rights at all to property, autonomy, respect, or choice.

The conversion efforts among primitive peoples intended to fill the bottommost rung of colonial society with obedient serfs and peons, so that the fruit of their labor could be first taxed by the state and the church, and then appropriated in full by the land owning castes. It had nothing at all to do with seeing these people as "equals" to anyone in a legal sense.

Missionaries might have frequently been emphatic people who cared about their flock's well being, but the church organizations and society at large really only had one place for converted darkies, and that was at the absolute bottom, below the lowest of the white Christians.
Well I did acknowledge the possibility of close enough.

Just as seeing missions as necessarily beneficial is wrong, ignoring its origin in a sense of 'the other is human, just wrong' is a mistake.
 
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When the Brits first settled in these lands they were of course not aware of local customs and practices. Those boundaries were certainly not clear to the Brits. There was no intentional overarching plan to ignore and trample over natives ways of life. The strong missionary movement, which albeit was not effective in Australia, is clear evidence that the British view of natives was generally that they were our moral equals (equally fallen before God). Legally the Myall Creek incident shows that settlers would be tried and executed for crimes committed against natives.

No, not really.

But now that you bring it up, there was a peculiar "degeneration" thesis that became somewhat popular among 19th C. Anglican clergy viz. Australian Aboriginals. Instead of regarding them as humans in a primitive or early (pre-modern) state, they thought Aboriginal peoples of Australia were actually humans in an advanced state of (post-modern) degeneration. Kinda flipped the noble savage on its head.

In short, they believed that the "New Holland savages" may very well have once been more advanced economically, with agriculture, crafts, markets, etc. as advanced as any in the Old World. But long centuries of isolation in Australia, coupled with environmental stresses and constant conflict and warfare, had led to a simplification of economic life towards subsistence, and the degradation of even that, to decline into a "savage" state of hunting & gathering (not regress - they had never been savages before). They definitely did not see them as moral equals - degradation of morals was one of the central pillars of the degeneration thesis.

This fit with Creationist views of the Bible, where it is written that God created herders and farmers, so the only explanation for the existence of "savages" as God's creatures is if they had for some reason degenerated from a more advanced civilizational state. This was also compatible with certain Deist views of Natural History, so it was appealing both low church & broad church wings.

More importantly, it fit in with Anglican missionary ideas. Aboriginal lifestyle is neither natural nor noble. Isolation and conflict had produced degeneration into savagery. The civilizing role of Pax Britannica, urban life and trade would "break" Aboriginals out of that degenerative trap. Above all was the role of education - not merely book education and Christian morals by missionaries, but also education in farming, crafts, and immersion and imitation by example of English lifestyles (clothing, homes, etc.). They believed this "guiding hand" would awaken the long lost original creation in their souls.

So no, they did not see Aboriginals as "equally fallen". They were seen as "much more fallen". And needed the good external hand of English civilization to bring them back up from their degenerated state to their natural state.

Kinda like the Irish.
 
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Churches were not egalitarian organizations, Avernite. The concept of "equal" merely referred to the acknowledgment that the natives had souls. Not that they had, like, any rights at all to property, autonomy, respect, or choice.

The conversion efforts among primitive peoples intended to fill the bottommost rung of colonial society with obedient serfs and peons, so that the fruit of their labor could be first taxed by the state and the church, and then appropriated in full by the land owning castes. It had nothing at all to do with seeing these people as "equals" to anyone in a legal sense.

Missionaries might have frequently been emphatic people who cared about their flock's well being, but the church organizations and society at large really only had one place for converted darkies, and that was at the absolute bottom, below the lowest of the white Christians, with zero empathy given to their well being or their needs.

Now that's going in the other extreme, and just as wrong.

Having written what I just wrote in the previous post, I am now about to backtrack a bit.

First, to be clear, the "New Holland degeneration" thesis is fun because it exploded in British journals in the early 19th Century, and was seriously embraced and propounded in Anglican circles. But most of these were written by intellectual clerics who had never actually set foot in Australia themselves, indeed many had never even set foot outside of Oxbridge. The opinions and feelings among actual missionaries in the field, particularly long-term missionaries, is a lot trickier and harder to assess.

If you read journals of African missionaries, like David Livingstone, they have a much more respectful view of Africans and African society than their counterparts back in European scientific societies (albeit Livingstone's Scottish, not English, so maybe there's a thing there). I have never read journals of Australian missionaries, but I would be quite curious to see what they write.

But there is a precedent we can look at to guess what their feelings were: I point you to the American Jesuits.

The "New Holland degeneration" thesis is actually a late English variation on earlier French Enlightenment thesis on "American degeneration". This was not propounded not so much by churchmen, but rather by secular natural scientists. Remember, Montesequieu back in 1749 had connected character & moral qualities to climate and environment. This was a general view shared by many French natural scientists, and they especially applied it to the Americas. The French did not see savages as degenerating from a higher civilized state (like the Anglican thesis), but rather that they simply never evolved from an earlier state of nature to begin with.

The grandaddy of it all was probably George-Louis Leclerc Buffon (1747, Histoire Naturel), who wrote an extensive natural history of the world, focusing most on "physical" characteristics of the animal kingdom. Buffon argued that because of America's environmental characteristics (wet, cold, marshy, etc.), the New World never developed large, aggressive land mammals like in the Old World, but only small and relatively harmless creatures. It took about five seconds for Buffon to extend that to humans. For the exact same environmental reasons, American Indian natives are also similarly "underdeveloped" humans - short, hairless, timid, not very virile (ergo the underpopulation of the continent).

"Underdevelopment" of physical characteristics was quickly extended to "underdevelopment" of intellectual and moral characteristics - American natives were childishly infantile, cowardly, weak, unmanly, etc. Buffon got the ball rolling, Montesquieu generalized it. Other French Enlightenment scientists ran with it to extremes. The "American underdevelopment" thesis was expounded in its most extreme form in Corneille Du Pauw (1768, Recherches sur les Americains) and was popularized in Abbé Raynal (1770, Deux Indes). There you will find some of the most paternalistic, racist derogations of American Indians ever written. Some, of course, like Jean-Jacques Rousseau, gave the twist of the "noble savage" - sounds a little better, but a savage nonetheless. Rousseau did not consider him a moral superior, but a moral nullity, kinda dull and stupid.

The "American underdevelopment" thesis even spilled over into Scottish Enlightenment writers, notably William Robertson's History of America (1777), even though Scottish thinkers were generally disinclined to the environmental arguments found in their French counterparts.

Even Spanish writers, who really ought to know better, embraced this thesis. I mean, peninsular Spaniards were already prejudiced against their colonies generally - just a dumping ground for fortune-seekers and ne'er-do-wells. No civilized Spaniard would want to move there. The French Enlightenment writers just confirmed what they always suspected - America is a dump, a land for savages, unfit for civilization, never produced any, never will.

This "American underdevelopment" thesis was the height of Enlightenment science in late 18th Century Europe. It was also, you will notice, written by intellectuals who had never actually lived in America, or had any personal familiarity with Amerindians.

This was all corrected by missionaries.

Jesuit missionaries had been working in the Americas, among the natives, since the 16th Century. Then, all of a sudden, in the 1760s, the Jesuits were all ejected from their missions and deported back to Europe - Portugal had expelled them from her colonies in 1759, France in 1764, Spain in 1767. The former Jesuit missionaries were all unloaded at the Pope's doorstep in Italy. Upon their arrival, the former missionaries set about reading these "scientific" European works on America ... and rolled on the floor laughing. These Enlightenment guys knew nothing about America. The speculations, the absurdities, the superiority complex, it was all laughable and ridiculous.

So, unemployed and with nothing else to do, the exiled Jesuits started writing real histories of America, to correct the record and improve European impressions of American Indians. There was a veritable stream of massive scholarly works by former Jesuit missionaries, pumped out after the 1770s through the early 1800s on natural, social and political history of the Americas, to combat the Enlightenment writers. It was these exiled Jesuit missionaries who wrote the great works expounding the virtues of American natives, often in the other extreme, as highly developed and advanced. They wrote down the histories and extolled the achievements of Pre-Columbian native civilizations - Aztecs, Incas, Toltecs, Mayas, Chimu, - as great or even superior to those of Europe. Aztec emperors were as great as Roman emperors, Texcoco was as glorious as Athens. And like Greek and Roman pagans, Mexicans "had always been Christians but didn't know it". American natives had a lot to be proud of, they weren't dull stupid savages, they were great innovators, industrious, great civilization builders, etc. Even relative backwaters like Canada and Chile got a makeover by Jesuit writers, placed on the same footing as European nations.

This had never been seen before. There was some awareness of Aztec, Incan, etc. civilization from the 16th Century chronicles of Spanish Conquistadors. But they focused on the conquest - adventure stories really. The Jesuit works instead went deep into pre-colonial history, and even in their colonial histories, focused on the Indian natives, not their colonial conquerors, and very much raised them as equals to Europeans. The absurdities of Buffon, Du Puaw, Raynal, etc. was just slanderous trash by ignorant Europeans, and the Jesuits assaulted their works line by line.

So I do want to correct the impression given above that missionaries were merely carrying out European prejudices abroad. Sure they had prejudices, and institutionally maybe too, back in the churches and mission societies back home. But on the ground, on the frontline, among the natives, the story was quite different. It was missionaries, more than anybody else, who learned to actually admire the natives, not merely to protect them, and endeavored to correct the paternalistic, derogatory view of them back in Europe.

So take their civilizing role with caution. Yes, the missionaries brought clothes, workshops, schools, etc. and other accoutrements of European civilization that infringed on native life. Was that bad? It is well known missionaries had a very relaxed attitude towards natives and their lifestyles, it is there if they want it, or they can take it in partial measures. Livingstone famously only made one convert in thirty years. He wasn't exactly very heavy-handed.

The missionaries weren't the authors of laws or enforcers of them - the colonial authorities were. If natives were forced into mission schools, it is not because the missionaries wanted them to, it is because the colonial governments wanted them to. Mission schools, raised by private donations, happened to be the only schools around - colonial government sure as hell was not going to expend state money building anything for natives. The missions happened to be there, and the colonial governments decided to use them to impose government will.

In sum: I don't actually know what Australian missionaries thought. The "New Holland degeneration" thesis is intellectual speculations written by Anglican scholars back in England. If the Jesuit example is anything to go by, I wouldn't be surprised if actual missionaries in Australia had a very different opinion.
 
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Now that's going in the other extreme, and just as wrong.

Having written what I just wrote in the previous post, I am now about to backtrack a bit.

First, to be clear, the "New Holland degeneration" thesis is fun because it exploded in British journals in the early 19th Century, and was seriously embraced and propounded in Anglican circles. But most of these were written by intellectual clerics who had never actually set foot in Australia themselves, indeed many had never even set foot outside of Oxbridge. The opinions and feelings among actual missionaries in the field, particularly long-term missionaries, is a lot trickier and harder to assess.

If you read journals of African missionaries, like David Livingstone, they have a much more respectful view of Africans and African society than their counterparts back in European scientific societies (albeit Livingstone's Scottish, not English, so maybe there's a thing there). I have never read journals of Australian missionaries, but I would be quite curious to see what they write.

But there is a precedent we can look at to guess what their feelings were: I point you to the American Jesuits.

The "New Holland degeneration" thesis is actually a late English variation on earlier French Enlightenment thesis on "American degeneration". This was not propounded not so much by churchmen, but rather by secular natural scientists. Remember, Montesequieu back in 1749 had connected character & moral qualities to climate and environment. This was a general view shared by many French natural scientists, and they especially applied it to the Americas. The French did not see savages as degenerating from a higher civilized state (like the Anglican thesis), but rather that they simply never evolved from an earlier state of nature to begin with.

The grandaddy of it all was probably George-Louis Leclerc Buffon (1747, Histoire Naturel), who wrote an extensive natural history of the world, focusing most on "physical" characteristics of the animal kingdom. Buffon argued that because of America's environmental characteristics (wet, cold, marshy, etc.), the New World never developed large, aggressive land mammals like in the Old World, but only small and relatively harmless creatures. It took about five seconds for Buffon to extend that to humans. For the exact same environmental reasons, American Indian natives are also similarly "underdeveloped" - short, hairless, timid, not very virile (ergo the underpopulation of the continent).

"Underdevelopment" of physical characteristics was quickly extended to "underdevelopment" of intellectual and moral characteristics of American natives - childishly infantile, cowardly, weak, unmanly, etc. Buffon got the ball rolling, Montesquieu generalized it. Other French Enlightenment scientists ran with it to extremes. The "American underdevelopment" thesis was expounded in its most extreme form in Corneille Du Pauw (1768, Recherches sur les Americains) and was popularized in Abbé Raynal (1770, Deux Indes). There you will find some of the most paternalistic, racist derogations of American Indians ever written. Some, of course, like Jean-Jacques Rousseau, gave the twist of the "noble savage" - sounds a little better, but a savage nonetheless. Rousseau did not consider him a moral superior, but a moral nullity, dull and stupid.

The "American underdevelopment" thesis even spilled over into Scottish Enlightenment writers, notably William Robertson's History of America (1777), even though Scottish thinkers were generally disinclined to the environmental arguments found in their French counterparts.

Even Spanish writers, who really ought to know better, embraced this thesis. I mean, peninsular Spaniards were already prejudiced against their colonies generally - just a dumping ground for fortune-seekers and ne'er-do-wells. No civilized Spaniard would want to move there. The French Enlightenment writers just confirmed what they always suspected - America is a dump, a land for savages, unfit for civilization, never produced any, never will.

This "American underdevelopment" thesis was the height of Enlightenment science in late 18th Century Europe. It was also, you will notice, written by intellectuals who had never actually lived in America, or had any personal familiarity with Amerindians.

This was all corrected by missionaries.

Jesuit missionaries had been working in the Americas, among the natives, since the 16th Century. Then, all of a sudden, in the 1760s, the Jesuits were all ejected from their missions and deported back to Europe - Portugal had expelled them from her colonies in 1759, France in 1764, Spain in 1767. The former Jesuit missionaries were all unloaded at the Pope's doorstep in Italy. Upon their arrival, they set about reading these "scientific" European works on America ... and rolled on the floor laughing. These Enlightenment guys knew nothing about America. The speculations, the absurdities, the superiority complex, it was all laughable and ridiculous.

So, unemployed and with nothing else to do, the Jesuits started writing real histories of America, to correct the record and improve European impressions of American Indians. There was a veritable stream of massive scholarly works by exiled Jesuit missionaries, pumped out after the 1770s through the early 1800s on natural, social and political history of the Americas, to combat the Enlightenment writers. It was these exiled Jesuit missionaries who wrote the great works expounding the virtues of American natives as highly civilized and advanced, writing down the histories and extolling the achievements of Pre-Columbian native civilizations - Aztecs, Incas, Toltecs, Mayas, Chimu, - as great or even superior to those of Europe. Aztec emperors were as great as Roman emperors, Texcoco was as glorious as Athens. And like these pre-Christian European pagans, Mexicans "had always been Christians but didn't know it". American natives had a lot to be proud of, they weren't dull stupid savages, they were great innovators, industrious, great civilization builders, etc.

This had never been seen before. There was some awareness of Aztec, Incan, etc. civilization from the 16th Century chronicles of Spanish Conquistadors. But they focused on the conquest - adventure stories really. The Jesuit works instead went deep into pre-colonial history, and even in their colonial histories, focusing on the Indian natives, not their Spanish conquerors, and very much raised them as equals to Europeans. The absurdities of Buffon, Du Puaw, Raynal, etc. was just slanderous trash by ignorant Europeans, and the Jesuits assaulted their works line by line.

So I do want to correct the impression given above that missionaries were merely carrying out European prejudices abroad. Sure they had prejudices, and institutionally maybe too, back in the churches and mission societies back home. But on the ground, on the frontline, among the natives, the story was quite different. It was missionaries, more than anybody else, who learned to actually admire the natives, not merely to protect them, and endeavored to correct the paternalistic, derogatory view of them back in Europe.

So take their civilizing role with caution. Yes, the missionaries brought clothes, workshops, schools, etc. and other accoutrements of European civilization that infringed on native life. Was that bad? It is well known missionaries had a very relaxed attitude towards natives and their lifestyles, it is there if they want it, or they can take it in partial measures. Livingstone famously only made one convert in thirty years. He wasn't exactly very heavy-handed.

The missionaries weren't the authors of laws or enforcers of them - the colonial authorities were. If natives were forced into mission schools, it is not because the missionaries wanted them to, it is because the colonial governments wanted them to. Mission schools, raised by private donations, happened to be the only schools around - colonial government sure as hell was not going to expend state money building anything for natives. The missions happened to be there, and the colonial governments decided to use them to impose government will.

In sum: I don't actually know what Australian missionaries thought. The "New Holland degeneration" thesis is intellectual speculations written by Anglican scholars back in England. If the Jesuit example is anything to go by, I wouldn't be surprised if actual missionaries in Australia had a very different opinion.
You make excellent arguments, but they're not actually against anything in the post I quoted?

Please note I did say the missionaries themselves were very frequently empathic with their flock and did not intend for them to become serfs and peons on the bottom most rung of society. There were plenty of awesome guys among the missionaries, and much of what we know about languages, cultures and history of American natives and natives on other continents colonized by Europeans came to us vis their work.

But my actual point was, that, once converted, the colonial settler societies (17th century + beyond) did only have that one particular place in mind for the converted natives - bottom rung, serfs and peons. Regardless of what the missionaries wished or recommended for them. At the bottom most rung, below the lowest of the whites. That's how they set up their laws, that's how they "integrated" them...

Maybe in some places (Portuguese colonies) the distance between the lowest of the whites and the natives wasn't very wide and they intermingled, forming a mestizo class of population with a subservient but defined role in society.

In others (basically all English or Dutch settler colonies) the distance would remain immense. I mean, you know history, how would you describe the role of converted natives in the society of an English or Dutch settler colony? The converted natives (New England natives, Cherokee, etc) were bottom rung, outlaws, with rights to life and property only in so far as it didn't bother their white neighbors. Natives who married a white person could assimilate but groups who after conversion remained distinct from white society didn't really have a place at all, did they?

They could assimilate as individuals, entirely give up their culture, language and heritage, and disappear from the historic record. The alternative course was that their white neighbors would inevitably kill or enslave them, when they felt they had a reason, and did not have to fear any punishment.
 
The problem with lefties of a certain type is that, having convinced themselves that what they believe in is true, they then believe that everyone who disagrees is either evil or stupid and therefore can neither be convinced nor argued with.
They then wonder why so many people continue running around with such wrong opinions - even when they have it absolutely right (as is the case here, the post they refer to is 100% apologist and I can name with almost complete certainty which book the original poster got their ideas from, being: "The Fabrication of Australian History", which builds out of some sloppiness on the part of Australian historians an entire conspiracy by historians to lie about Australia's colonisation).
lol
Please expand on this most worthwhile and erudite thought of yours
It's straight-up "what did the romans ever do for us" nonsense. That wasn't a defense of the romans. It was a joke about imperialism.

I really can't say this enough, no colonized people have ever benefited from being colonized no matter how much Mr. Rossolini above thinks he's GOT me as a leftist idiot

You'll note I said nothing to him and nothing about my political views. I've also never read whatever dumbass book he's referring to.
 
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lol

It's straight-up "what did the romans ever do for us" nonsense. That wasn't a defense of the romans. It was a joke about imperialism.

I really can't say this enough, no colonized people have ever benefited from being colonized no matter how much Mr. Rossolini above thinks he's GOT me as a leftist idiot

You'll note I said nothing to him and nothing about my political views. I've also never read whatever dumbass book he's referring to.
You've just proved his point.
 
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Now that's going in the other extreme, and just as wrong.

Having written what I just wrote in the previous post, I am now about to backtrack a bit.

First, to be clear, the "New Holland degeneration" thesis is fun because it exploded in British journals in the early 19th Century, and was seriously embraced and propounded in Anglican circles. But most of these were written by intellectual clerics who had never actually set foot in Australia themselves, indeed many had never even set foot outside of Oxbridge. The opinions and feelings among actual missionaries in the field, particularly long-term missionaries, is a lot trickier and harder to assess.

If you read journals of African missionaries, like David Livingstone, they have a much more respectful view of Africans and African society than their counterparts back in European scientific societies (albeit Livingstone's Scottish, not English, so maybe there's a thing there). I have never read journals of Australian missionaries, but I would be quite curious to see what they write.

But there is a precedent we can look at to guess what their feelings were: I point you to the American Jesuits.

The "New Holland degeneration" thesis is actually a late English variation on earlier French Enlightenment thesis on "American degeneration". This was not propounded not so much by churchmen, but rather by secular natural scientists. Remember, Montesequieu back in 1749 had connected character & moral qualities to climate and environment. This was a general view shared by many French natural scientists, and they especially applied it to the Americas. The French did not see savages as degenerating from a higher civilized state (like the Anglican thesis), but rather that they simply never evolved from an earlier state of nature to begin with.

The grandaddy of it all was probably George-Louis Leclerc Buffon (1747, Histoire Naturel), who wrote an extensive natural history of the world, focusing most on "physical" characteristics of the animal kingdom. Buffon argued that because of America's environmental characteristics (wet, cold, marshy, etc.), the New World never developed large, aggressive land mammals like in the Old World, but only small and relatively harmless creatures. It took about five seconds for Buffon to extend that to humans. For the exact same environmental reasons, American Indian natives are also similarly "underdeveloped" humans - short, hairless, timid, not very virile (ergo the underpopulation of the continent).

"Underdevelopment" of physical characteristics was quickly extended to "underdevelopment" of intellectual and moral characteristics - American natives were childishly infantile, cowardly, weak, unmanly, etc. Buffon got the ball rolling, Montesquieu generalized it. Other French Enlightenment scientists ran with it to extremes. The "American underdevelopment" thesis was expounded in its most extreme form in Corneille Du Pauw (1768, Recherches sur les Americains) and was popularized in Abbé Raynal (1770, Deux Indes). There you will find some of the most paternalistic, racist derogations of American Indians ever written. Some, of course, like Jean-Jacques Rousseau, gave the twist of the "noble savage" - sounds a little better, but a savage nonetheless. Rousseau did not consider him a moral superior, but a moral nullity, kinda dull and stupid.

The "American underdevelopment" thesis even spilled over into Scottish Enlightenment writers, notably William Robertson's History of America (1777), even though Scottish thinkers were generally disinclined to the environmental arguments found in their French counterparts.

Even Spanish writers, who really ought to know better, embraced this thesis. I mean, peninsular Spaniards were already prejudiced against their colonies generally - just a dumping ground for fortune-seekers and ne'er-do-wells. No civilized Spaniard would want to move there. The French Enlightenment writers just confirmed what they always suspected - America is a dump, a land for savages, unfit for civilization, never produced any, never will.

This "American underdevelopment" thesis was the height of Enlightenment science in late 18th Century Europe. It was also, you will notice, written by intellectuals who had never actually lived in America, or had any personal familiarity with Amerindians.

This was all corrected by missionaries.

Jesuit missionaries had been working in the Americas, among the natives, since the 16th Century. Then, all of a sudden, in the 1760s, the Jesuits were all ejected from their missions and deported back to Europe - Portugal had expelled them from her colonies in 1759, France in 1764, Spain in 1767. The former Jesuit missionaries were all unloaded at the Pope's doorstep in Italy. Upon their arrival, the former missionaries set about reading these "scientific" European works on America ... and rolled on the floor laughing. These Enlightenment guys knew nothing about America. The speculations, the absurdities, the superiority complex, it was all laughable and ridiculous.

So, unemployed and with nothing else to do, the exiled Jesuits started writing real histories of America, to correct the record and improve European impressions of American Indians. There was a veritable stream of massive scholarly works by former Jesuit missionaries, pumped out after the 1770s through the early 1800s on natural, social and political history of the Americas, to combat the Enlightenment writers. It was these exiled Jesuit missionaries who wrote the great works expounding the virtues of American natives, often in the other extreme, as highly developed and advanced. They wrote down the histories and extolled the achievements of Pre-Columbian native civilizations - Aztecs, Incas, Toltecs, Mayas, Chimu, - as great or even superior to those of Europe. Aztec emperors were as great as Roman emperors, Texcoco was as glorious as Athens. And like Greek and Roman pagans, Mexicans "had always been Christians but didn't know it". American natives had a lot to be proud of, they weren't dull stupid savages, they were great innovators, industrious, great civilization builders, etc. Even relative backwaters like Canada and Chile got a makeover by Jesuit writers, placed on the same footing as European nations.

This had never been seen before. There was some awareness of Aztec, Incan, etc. civilization from the 16th Century chronicles of Spanish Conquistadors. But they focused on the conquest - adventure stories really. The Jesuit works instead went deep into pre-colonial history, and even in their colonial histories, focused on the Indian natives, not their colonial conquerors, and very much raised them as equals to Europeans. The absurdities of Buffon, Du Puaw, Raynal, etc. was just slanderous trash by ignorant Europeans, and the Jesuits assaulted their works line by line.

So I do want to correct the impression given above that missionaries were merely carrying out European prejudices abroad. Sure they had prejudices, and institutionally maybe too, back in the churches and mission societies back home. But on the ground, on the frontline, among the natives, the story was quite different. It was missionaries, more than anybody else, who learned to actually admire the natives, not merely to protect them, and endeavored to correct the paternalistic, derogatory view of them back in Europe.

So take their civilizing role with caution. Yes, the missionaries brought clothes, workshops, schools, etc. and other accoutrements of European civilization that infringed on native life. Was that bad? It is well known missionaries had a very relaxed attitude towards natives and their lifestyles, it is there if they want it, or they can take it in partial measures. Livingstone famously only made one convert in thirty years. He wasn't exactly very heavy-handed.

The missionaries weren't the authors of laws or enforcers of them - the colonial authorities were. If natives were forced into mission schools, it is not because the missionaries wanted them to, it is because the colonial governments wanted them to. Mission schools, raised by private donations, happened to be the only schools around - colonial government sure as hell was not going to expend state money building anything for natives. The missions happened to be there, and the colonial governments decided to use them to impose government will.

In sum: I don't actually know what Australian missionaries thought. The "New Holland degeneration" thesis is intellectual speculations written by Anglican scholars back in England. If the Jesuit example is anything to go by, I wouldn't be surprised if actual missionaries in Australia had a very different opinion.
Informative post. I do wonder, however, whether Jesuits are representative of missionaries in general.
 
I really can't say this enough, no colonized people have ever benefited from being colonized no matter how much Mr. Rossolini above thinks he's GOT me as a leftist idiot
That depends on if it is a benefit to go from a neolithic life-style to a 20th century one. A matter of opinion I suppose.
 
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That depends on if it is a benefit to go from a neolithic life-style to a 20th century one. A matter of opinion I suppose.
I'm going to have to stop this pendulum am I not?

did colonised people have a better life under colonisation then they had before: generally yes

did colonised people have a life-standard anywhere equal to that of their colonial masters or if they had reached that level of development on their own? hell to the bloody hell no
 
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I'm going to have to stop this pendulum am I not?

did colonised people have a better life under colonisation then they had before: generally yes

did colonised people have a life-standard anywhere equal to that of their colonial masters or if they had reached that level of development on their own? hell to the bloody hell no

And now, emulating the European education and industrial core, many of those previous backwaters are now thriving economies governed by home rule with wildly complex alliances crisscrossing the globe where for eons there was nothing but huts and fire.
 
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And now, emulating the European education and industrial core, many of those previous backwaters are now thriving economies governed by home rule with wildly complex alliances crisscrossing the globe where for eons there was nothing but huts and fire.
Yeah, 150 years later

Plenty of places could have gotten there without getting colonized along the way. See Thailand vs Vietnam
 
Yeah, 150 years later

Plenty of places could have gotten there without getting colonized along the way. See Thailand vs Vietnam

That´s a false comparison... due to their longer shoreline and general proximity to the sea as well as to the possible maritime trading partners Vietnam should be better off.
 
That´s a false comparison... due to their longer shoreline and general proximity to the sea as well as to the possible maritime trading partners Vietnam should be better off.
Thailand is the one that was never a colony so you're actually agreeing.