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Imperator Universalis
May 4, 2002
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I am curious, when you get CB, do you can declare war only on the enemy's land or can it extend to his vassel?

Hundred Years of War is a good example, King of England had a claim to throne of France, so he invaded France, all of it that is not under his control. So, will that be how CB works in CK? I mean, like if you declare war on a King, you are declaring war against him and his vassels. Or declare a war on Duke of Brittany and only Brittany's possession. Or would CB have you only on the enemy, not hnis vassels?
 
Originally posted by Auspend
On another note, will there be any way to gain CBs? Or gain national provinces or their equivalent?

Given that CK will have a dynastic system, I would think that you would gain CBs by marrying into another nation's family and thus gaining a claim to the throne.
 
Casus Belli (lat.): A ground for war; an occurrence warranting international hostilities. ~ Brewer, Dictionary of Phrase and Fable.

The threory of just war stems back to the fourth century, and the writings of St. Augustin. St. Augustin of Hippo wrestled the old anti-violence thoughts of Christianity (as seen by e.g. Jesus) and comes to the conclusion that there are occations where violence is acceptable and even needed.

The thoughts of St. Augustin were later distilled by theologists and canonic lawyers to reach an essence of three criteria to be fulfilled before a war could be justified:
1. Just cause
2. Authority of the prince
3. Right intention

The first two were summed up by Isidore of Sevilla: That war is lawful and just which is waged upon command in order to recover property or to repel attack. The last criterion ment that the warriors should fight with pure motives, and only as a last practicable mean of achieving the justifiable purpose. Even then no more force than necessary should be used. In addition, violence was considered to be neutral, not 'evil' as today. Since violence itself was neutral it drew moral coloring from its intentions - fighting with good intentions was "good violence".


So - how do we transfer this to CK?
- The dynastic claim is mentioned - if a scoundrel have cheated you or your kin of their rightful inheritance you have a just cause. If you have no higher instances to appeal to you may authorise war (as the prince) as long as other means fail. You have a CB. :)
- War on heretics were common, depending on the standing Papal definition of a "heretic" ;) An example is the Albigensian crusade, where the papal legates tried with peaceful means first (thus fulfilling one of the criterias above when they failed) in protection of faith (a just cause).
- War on the heathens and infidel muslims come in the same category. Out of Christian love the best thing you could do was to forve them away from their ungodly ways to save their souls...
 
I wonder if there will be claims over old border disputes as well, outside the dynastic model...
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
I wonder if there will be claims over old border disputes as well, outside the dynastic model...

I hope so. Usually border disputes stayed at just that. Hell some were even incentives for marriages but there were occasionally those that erupted into war. Of course this was probably more common among vassals which if implemented could lend a nice ehh... disruption in your empire.:)
 
Actually the concept of a just war stems farther back than the 4th Century; the Romans had a very simmilar and very involved concept for when a war could or could not be declared

The Roman fetial priests were used for the solemn official declaration of war. According to fetial law, Rome could enjoy divine favour only if it waged just wars (wars of self-defense).

Of course, the Romans were masters of twisting this concept to fit their own interests.
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
I wonder if there will be claims over old border disputes as well, outside the dynastic model...

Since the game starts out with the historic personages in place (I assume, unless there is an option to randomize the start) one would guess that the old CBs would also be in place. Guess we'll have to ask Sergei to be sure.:)
 
How would the wars surrounding Mathilda of Canossa's domains fit into this? She died without hiers, her daughter died before she did. I believe the HRE believed that they should be returned to him but others disagreed.
 
Originally posted by Aetius
How would the wars surrounding Mathilda of Canossa's domains fit into this? She died without hiers, her daughter died before she did. I believe the HRE believed that they should be returned to him but others disagreed.

Now that is an interesting question - what happens to a territory in CK when its ruler dies without an obvious heir? Does it revert to its overlord. What if there is no overlord- is it a free-for-all?
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
Now that is an interesting question - what happens to a territory in CK when its ruler dies without an obvious heir? Does it revert to its overlord. What if there is no overlord- is it a free-for-all?

If inside the HRE I guess the Emperor would have something to say. If outside... Hm... The Pope had a nasty tendency to stick his nose into some of these things... Maybe he could decide (or at least try... :D)
 
Originally posted by Havard
If inside the HRE I guess the Emperor would have something to say. If outside... Hm... The Pope had a nasty tendency to stick his nose into some of these things... Maybe he could decide (or at least try... :D)

IRL it seemed to be very messy I think that some of the Este stuff was returned to the Este family (I think Welf, Mathilda's second husband, was related to the Este), some places were kept by the Patrimony of St. Peter, even if the HRE disputed the right of the Patrimony to own the territory, some stuff was taken by the HRE (Lorraine and some places in Italy) and some cities became free.
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
Now that is an interesting question - what happens to a territory in CK when its ruler dies without an obvious heir? Does it revert to its overlord. What if there is no overlord- is it a free-for-all?

Wills were handy in such situations (unless the person in question died unexpectedly.) I guess dying without an heir is equal to "game over" for a player, but AI might indeed assign another noble who'd take over (possibly the overlord, but unrest would surely ensue)

The only case I'm familiar with is the death of Yakup Bey of Germiyanoglus who had no heir and left all Germiyan holdings in western Asia Minor to the Ottoman sultan Murat II in his will.
 
Originally posted by Aetius
IRL it seemed to be very messy I think that some of the Este stuff was returned to the Este family (I think Welf, Mathilda's second husband, was related to the Este), some places were kept by the Patrimony of St. Peter, even if the HRE disputed the right of the Patrimony to own the territory, some stuff was taken by the HRE (Lorraine and some places in Italy) and some cities became free.

Welf was indeed an Este (but then again, so was Queen Victoria by her male ancestry :D ). But for the most part the territories of the Margravate pretty much was divided up by local authorities...
 
Originally posted by tuna
Wills were handy in such situations (unless the person in question died unexpectedly.) I guess dying without an heir is equal to "game over" for a player, but AI might indeed assign another noble who'd take over (possibly the overlord, but unrest would surely ensue)

The only case I'm familiar with is the death of Yakup Bey of Germiyanoglus who had no heir and left all Germiyan holdings in western Asia Minor to the Ottoman sultan Murat II in his will.

Well, cases where there were no traceable heirs this were rather rare. For the most part, if the state was a vassal, the lands reverted to the overlord, who could keep them or dispose of them at will. In the case of a soveriegn state... well, cases are even more rare. A good example would be the extinction of the main line of the Rurikids in Russia with the death of Ivan the Terrible's son Fedor in 1598 - and anyone who has played EU knows what happened then. Closer to the CK period, there was the extinction of the Macedonian dynasty in Byzantium with the death of Zoe; though the throne passed to her husband, afterwords things were quite unstable until the Kommenoi came to power. So if a ruling dynasty becomes extinct, it should be quite the mess for the nation in question...
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
cases where there were no traceable heirs this were rather rare.

Especially when you consider that feudal society didn't have a set of rules per se for who could be considered an "heir by right," and who could not be a contender, as long as a connection could be made of family relationship. If a dead sovereign had no children and designated no heirs, brothers-inlaw, sisters-inlaw, uncles, ants, fathers-inlaw, mothers-inlaw, distant cousins; all could be considered potential heirs by right. The Nobles of the realm could decide who had the better claim (Which, if there was disagreement, could lead to dynastic wars).

Your faction would have to have made no marriage alliances and have no relation to any other noble family for their to be no potential claimants. "Rare" is a bit of an understatement. And, even if there really was no one who had a feudal right to the throne, the nobles could always choose from amongst themselves (Not unlike the election of the H. R. Emperor, or the King of Jerusalem).
 
So essentially what is being said is that when a dynasty dies out the overlord should get a CB shield on the ex-dynasty's territory. I wonder if it possible to have multiple overlords or at least former overlords who will share claims on the same territory. I suppose it could be possible to be a vassal of the French king, the HRE and possibly the Pope at the same time or at different times...
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
Welf was indeed an Este (but then again, so was Queen Victoria by her male ancestry :D ). But for the most part the territories of the Margravate pretty much was divided up by local authorities...
The problem being in this case that the Este themselves were not Este yet, I think they still used their Lombard name (in German Otbertiner in Italian Obertenghi) at the time, but who cares ;)
 
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