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Arizal

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Aug 9, 2006
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Hey,

I didn’t read into any of the Tinto Flavours because I wouldn’t be bothered about those special mechanics, but well, acting like they don’t exist won’t make them disappear.

For those who read through those, how much will gameplay, meaning by that the « normal » rules of the game, those who affect everyone equally, be affected by this content?

My preferred answer would be as little as possible, as I don’t want countries to be « OP » on the ground of what happened later in history to them and purely TAG-based, but it may time I reckon with what has truly been done by Tinto and not stay with what appeared to be from the earlier Tinto Talks.

Yes, I’m the type of guys who hate mission trees and dislike national ideas and any type of bonus which is linked to specific tags.
 
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I mean we dont know much about most flavour events. They can range from "here is 1 prestige" to "here is an insanely OP general". How much you will have of each is up in the air. I didnt watch every single youtuber regarding EU5, but they didnt show much flavour events in the first place. We saw some events from the TT, but also far from seeing even half. In short: Wait and play.
 
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I think you could best answer your own question if you descended on the level of us peasants who like flavour and read through the devs' vision and what they've created for the game.
 
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Could you try to rewrite your post in a slightly more passive-aggressive tone, please?
I think you could best answer your own question if you descended on the level of us peasants who like flavour and read through the devs' vision and what they've created for the game.
I'm sorry you found that passive agressive or condescending. I just wanted to have a more accurate view of the game and didn't want to read through every TF. At the same time, I wanted to explain why I was making this thread, and maybe use it to discuss those type of mechanics further.
 
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I'm probably in the minority, but I'd say it won't affect gameplay that much.

I know people were/are accusing I:R and Vicky3 of not having enough flavour. That "playing every country feels the same". And I don't really get it. It's kinda obvious that it's generally a good idea to industrialize and so on. Some nations should industrialize and others shouldn't, just so that they could be "played differently"?

Most likely there will also be one optimal way to play EUV - pop growth, trade expansion, transformation of society from peasants to burghers and so on. In the end it'll most likely be better to have strong trade center, plenty of burghers and clergy, professional army and the like. And some people will complain that "all tags feel the same, you just have to build towns, switch to professional army and spam marketplaces".

Are three unique techs really a gamechanger? Is renaming three laws to native names instead of generic English one enough? I doubt it. Unique units will most likely have the biggest impact on gameplay, but that's it.

Flavour events are always nice and welcome, but that's also not a gamechanger that will make the player play in a completely different way than when playing another tag. Base strategy regarding pops, economy and warfare will still apply to almost all states. It doesn't mean I don't want flavour events/units/laws/techs and so on - they're great and greatly enhance the experience. I just don't think it'll have any serious impact on how people will play the game.
Flavour should be there only to feel the difference between different tags, not to make anyone OP.
 
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Some things need to be a bit forced if you want to have any semblance of history.

Take Timur for example. The chance of him becoming a great conqueror before dying was basically 1%. Just like Chinggis, there were a ridiculous number of events where he could have died, with much of his life spent in exile. He only became a conqueror in his elder years.

If we went by realism instead of historicity, Timur would likely never appear in a campaign.


 
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I'm probably in the minority, but I'd say it won't affect gameplay that much.

I know people were/are accusing I:R and Vicky3 of not having enough flavour. That "playing every country feels the same". And I don't really get it. It's kinda obvious that it's generally a good idea to industrialize and so on. Some nations should industrialize and others shouldn't, just so that they could be "played differently"?

Most likely there will also be one optimal way to play EUV - pop growth, trade expansion, transformation of society from peasants to burghers and so on. In the end it'll most likely be better to have strong trade center, plenty of burghers and clergy, professional army and the like. And some people will complain that "all tags feel the same, you just have to build towns, switch to professional army and spam marketplaces".

Are three unique techs really a gamechanger? Is renaming three laws to native names instead of generic English one enough? I doubt it. Unique units will most likely have the biggest impact on gameplay, but that's it.

Flavour events are always nice and welcome, but that's also not a gamechanger that will make the player play in a completely different way than when playing another tag. Base strategy regarding pops, economy and warfare will still apply to almost all states. It doesn't mean I don't want flavour events/units/laws/techs and so on - they're great and greatly enhance the experience. I just don't think it'll have any serious impact on how people will play the game.
Flavour should be there only to feel the difference between different tags, not to make anyone OP.
There is certain flavour that should affect gameplay quite drastically, especially the government setup - I don't want Switzerland be just like some swabian Prince, but with Elections, but actually deal with a heavily decentralised confederacy and not feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot by not aiming for an absolutist dicatorship - and neither should an absolutist Monarchy be forced on the path to liberal democracy either. Different playstyles should be equally viable, and different flavour for countries represent the various traditions that led them to different paths.
For example whether you unite Germany in Vic3 with Prussia or Austria in the end isn't all that different - in reality these outcomes would have been drastically different though!
 
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As someone who has largely agreed with you on the topics of flavor/mission trees/ideas (time flies! - it has been nearly a year since I had an argument with someone on the topic):

There's a good amount of innate flavor that comes from starting situations (diplomatic or otherwise). Other than that, most countries also start with unique privileges, which I consider a welcome addition. The most common kinds of flavor are basically what they call "dynamic historical events" (DHE) and unique advances. I do believe some of these are tag-specific, but others are region-, religion-, situation-specific, the last of which I quite like (from the last TF, for example, Muscovy has an event to trigger war with Novgorod IF they elect another ruler, and this is early-on enough that it makes sense). Other than that, you have your disasters, your reforms, and so on.

Overall though fundamentally it encounters the same issues (that is, what I think you or I would consider "issues") as EUIV. Not so much in terms of locking content behind tags, but divorcing game-state from why those things happened historically. Just as an example from the last TF, as Russia you could have the Time of Troubles happen, which is fine, but this has nothing to do with a weak and arguably intellectually disabled ruler dying and resulting in the erasure of the ruling dynasty (along with, of course, the specificities of that time period but those are not exactly all simulated so I will give that a pass). Instead, it pretty much relies on being Russia/Muscovy during one of two ages and having either low stability or legitimacy. So in essence you have a specific historical disaster triggering due to generic in-game factors.

Hope this clears things up. If anyone who's been following the threads more actively than me thinks I've misrepresented anything concrete (that is, other than your opinion on what "flavor" should be), let me know - I'm sleep deprived and may have gotten something wrong, in which case I would like to be corrected.
 
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As it stands it doesnt seem to affect it too much. There is so much flavour for everyone that it kind of balances itself off. Yes late game when you have accrued all the good unique content and got rid off the bad ones you will probably have collected quite a few good modifiers but so will all your rivals (mostly, depending on AI).

I do love having unique content.Makes playing different countries feel different and they have actually strengths and weaknesses unlike other games.

Fortunately you are in the minority as every time they have tried your sandbox approached its been a dissaster and people just demanding flavour because they get bored of all tags playing the same.

So tough for you. You can always mod it to get rid of all the content i guess
 
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Fortunately you are in the minority as every time they have tried your sandbox approached its been a dissaster and people just demanding flavour because they get bored of all tags playing the same.
You know, this is one of those situations where I feel like one of those "that wasn't real Communism"-types - because that wasn't a real sandbox, it was just a fundamentally flawed game.

Haven't played Vic 3, which I'm sure you're referring to, but since you imply multiple such events I will take the case of CK3, which does get flak for being rather same-y (a description I agree with completely). However, the issue in that case is not that there isn't enough "flavor" for certain regions/religions/cultures/whatever (tags don't make sense in CK, after all), but rather because they decided to make a le funny incest simulator so that Redditors could post their horribly-inbred, yet superhuman homunculi on r/CrusaderKings. Which is why you have absolutely inane things going on, like being able to change the very tenets of a religion or culture because you have a lot of "piety" or some other nonsense. And why they seem to be focusing on adding more content regions to the game rather than actually changing systems (but that is speculation on my part).

I don't mind if flavor events occurred when certain simulate-able conditions are met, and hey - if the text and some options are unique (and even tag-specific), all the better! In fact, I would welcome such systems. What I dislike is when you are prevented from doing certain things, even when they make sense, because you do not have such-and-such name. My entire argument hinges on that phrase - when it makes sense. CK3 is an example of what happens when you throw that baby out with the bathwater.

The issue is not a (historically-grounded) sandbox. The issue is when the sandbox lets you do what you want, without consequence.
 
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I have to admit that I find the asymmetry that inevitably arises from mission trees, flavors and bonuses etc. to be a unique selling point. Just as it has always been historically.

However, it should still be kept within certain limits.
 
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I'm sorry you found that passive agressive or condescending. I just wanted to have a more accurate view of the game and didn't want to read through every TF. At the same time, I wanted to explain why I was making this thread, and maybe use it to discuss those type of mechanics further.
No lol, you don't have to apologize for anything, you did nothing wrong. Dude just made a person in their head and got mad at it lmao. Honestly, it was pretty clear to me.


Some things need to be a bit forced if you want to have any semblance of history.

Take Timur for example. The chance of him becoming a great conqueror before dying was basically 1/100. Just like Chinggis, there were a ridiculous number of events where he could have died, with much of his life spent in exile. He only became a conqueror in his elder years.

If we went by realism instead of historicity, Timur would likely never appear in a campaign.


History? Eu5 is a game not a (very interactive) documentary. What is the point of altering the history past the starting date if we don't get to enjoy the consequences of it. I get it when one wants to relive history with slight alteration, but it gets old very, very quickly. When ck2 was the medieval game, one complaint was about how alien every playthrough could be. And my reaction to this is, do any of you like to play with your imagination? Because that was a great feature, at least better than being forced into the same scenario over and over again.

Also, all of you are confusing history with fate. Everything that happened up to now was not meant to be.
 
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No lol, you don't have to apologize for anything, you did nothing wrong. Dude just made a person in their head and got mad at it lmao. Honestly, it was pretty clear to me.

History? Eu5 is a game not a (very interactive) documentary. What is the point of altering the history past the starting date if we don't get to enjoy the consequences of it. I get it when one wants to relive history with slight alteration, but it gets old very, very quickly. When ck2 was the medieval game, one complaint was about how alien every playthrough could be. And my reaction to this is, do any of you like to play with your imagination? Because that was a great feature, at least better than being forced into the same scenario over and over again.

Also, all of you are confusing history with fate. Everything that happened up to now was not meant to be.
Part of the wish for a certain amount of railroading is the desire to roleplay. For example part of what makes France in the early modern period interesting is the struggle against the English and the Habsburgs, similar for the Prussians, or the Dutch. If the HRE just stays super weak after the Great Interregnum without the imperial revival with the Luxembourgs and Habsburgs, it's less interesting for all the surrounding states without that struggle.
It's not that the specific event chain needs to happen, but I want to see things like a powerful colonising Spain, an attempt to again centralise the HRE, the rise of something like the Ottomans, the PLC, Russia, ...
I do hope that some of that is achieved through more robust systems than EU4 had. For example Austria got way too many PUs for free, but still never managed to pass more than one or two reforms in most playthroughs. The AI just seemed generally incapable of doing anything more complex than directly conquering provinces.
 
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Some things need to be a bit forced if you want to have any semblance of history.
Forcing things to happen in situations where they don't make sense doesn't give the game a "semblance of history". History is not just a list of events, it's a chain of causal relationships. If you change the earlier events - as you (and the AI) inevitably will when playing EUV or any Paradox game - later events must also change accordingly.
 
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Take Timur for example. The chance of him becoming a great conqueror before dying was basically 1/100.
Tamerlan was around 16 in 1337. I don't see his coming in power as inevitable by that point. The Mongol successor states were in turmoil and there was a huge instability accross central Asia. That's the historical situation I would like to see depicted in-game, much more than making the battle of Angora inevitable.
There is certain flavour that should affect gameplay quite drastically, especially the government setup - I don't want Switzerland be just like some swabian Prince, but with Elections, but actually deal with a heavily decentralised confederacy
Sure, Switzerland actually being a confederation is a great idea. That's the type of "flavour" I like, but it adresses the situation as it was at game start, it doesn't force ulterior results.
Different playstyles should be equally viable, and different flavour for countries represent the various traditions that led them to different paths.
As another person said, to a point there has to be a meta. Playing a heavily feudal and agrarian society, such as Russia in the era, should definitely has drawbacks. What's funny, though, is that taking this example seriously, Russia ended up being regarded as one of the biggest power of the world at the end of the game, so it gives some credential to what you are saying.

But still, if you neglect trade as the Netherlands, for example, you are probably going to have problems.

And I'm fine with the game portraying the modern era. You can't stop progress, unless you conquer the world and innovation slows to a grind.
There's a good amount of innate flavor that comes from starting situations (diplomatic or otherwise). Other than that, most countries also start with unique privileges, which I consider a welcome addition. The most common kinds of flavor are basically what they call "dynamic historical events" (DHE) and unique advances. I do believe some of these are tag-specific, but others are region-, religion-, situation-specific, the last of which I quite like (from the last TF, for example, Muscovy has an event to trigger war with Novgorod IF they elect another ruler, and this is early-on enough that it makes sense). Other than that, you have your disasters, your reforms, and so on.
I see. I don't like "unique privileges" because I would like everyone to be able to have them, but the idea that countries would start in different positions, as I expressed in another thread, is great.
Overall though fundamentally it encounters the same issues (that is, what I think you or I would consider "issues") as EUIV. Not so much in terms of locking content behind tags, but divorcing game-state from why those things happened historically. Just as an example from the last TF, as Russia you could have the Time of Troubles happen, which is fine, but this has nothing to do with a weak and arguably intellectually disabled ruler dying and resulting in the erasure of the ruling dynasty (along with, of course, the specificities of that time period but those are not exactly all simulated so I will give that a pass). Instead, it pretty much relies on being Russia/Muscovy during one of two ages and having either low stability or legitimacy. So in essence you have a specific historical disaster triggering due to generic in-game factors.
I think we always agreed that "DHE" should be linked more to the situation countries find themselves in than "oh, this happened historically, so even if it has nothing to do with the situation in game, it should happen".

I guess as long as it doesn't permeate the game, I'll still be able to enjoy it. The amount of simulationist mechanics will probably help.
I have to admit that I find the asymmetry that inevitably arises from mission trees, flavors and bonuses etc. to be a unique selling point. Just as it has always been historically.
Those already are games with huge assymetry from just the starting position of everyone. I don't see why unique bonuses would be absolutely necessary if the same result can be achieved by having global mechanics.

I want to stress, here. I said "the same result", meaning that I'm not asking for a blank slate. I'm fine with starting positions being hugely different, with transformative chains of events tied to logical triggers (such as the times of trouble). I don't want to scrap those, but to expand them so that they aren't limited to happen only in situations forcefully restricted to what happened historically. And I believe it would be possible for the content designers to take inspiration from history without trying to mimic it.
 
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Forcing things to happen in situations where they don't make sense doesn't give the game a "semblance of history". History is not just a list of events, it's a chain of causal relationships. If you change the earlier events - as you (and the AI) inevitably will when playing EUV or any Paradox game - later events must also change accordingly.
I wonder if a possible solution would be to make the AI pursue certain goals (based on history), without events/missions giving stuff just for free.
As with the aforementioned example of the HRE, in EU4 the AI never really pursued centralising it, just passed reforms whenever it could, instead Austria would conquer random bits all over the empire, not because it really needed that one province in pommerania, but just because it was a possible peace option - and then rebels would sit on it for years until Austria finally got access. Or similarly, Portugal wouldn't try to reach the spice islands, but colonise worthless islands in the atlantic.
So hopefully there's a sandbox where the AI also actually pursues worthwhile goals, and perhaps then it will resemble history more.
 
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I think one thing to say about flavour is that, flavour is actually a compromise. Because, devs aren't 100% history + computer-science expert that can design a game with all details of human societies.

A big evidence to that is the magical "China" is debuff-ed or "disastered-out" in all historical PDX grand-strategy game. If not, they would get a debuff later. In all CK China is outside the map, until recently they announce the region would be introduced in CK3 chapter 4. Which I have no idea how can they do that with game still balanced. Mods that extended the map just prove that most player didn't use vast China to conquer the world is because: 1) Flavour debuff and mechanism stop them from doing so; 2) micro-managing too many coutiers and vassals worn them out.

Why? Probably because balancing expansion and a big-chunk-tag like most major Chinese dynasties is almost impossible. Such as Eu4's magical supply system can let Ming's army fed themselves when they advance across Russian siberia, which is impossible and a major reason why Japan won the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905).
 
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I'm not usually a fan of changing the way a country acts through the AI, but I do remember an issue in EUIV regarding how Russia used the Streltsy. The AI should at least be able to use its tools.

Plus, there is something to be said about cultural differences in how people approach political actions... But I don't see how that could be translated in-game, except through stereotypes. Societal values could be a partial answer : if your people is more pacifist, maybe the country as a whole should act more passively?
 
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Part of the wish for a certain amount of railroading is the desire to roleplay. For example part of what makes France in the early modern period interesting is the struggle against the English and the Habsburgs, similar for the Prussians, or the Dutch. If the HRE just stays super weak after the Great Interregnum without the imperial revival with the Luxembourgs and Habsburgs, it's less interesting for all the surrounding states without that struggle.
It's not that the specific event chain needs to happen, but I want to see things like a powerful colonising Spain, an attempt to again centralise the HRE, the rise of something like the Ottomans, the PLC, Russia, ...
I do hope that some of that is achieved through more robust systems than EU4 had. For example Austria got way too many PUs for free, but still never managed to pass more than one or two reforms in most playthroughs. The AI just seemed generally incapable of doing anything more complex than directly conquering provinces.
Ok that's funny. This is exactly the reason why I want the game to not be railroaded, role play. And I have a hard time seeing how a glorified history book allows that. I also have difficulty understanding how the same story being repeated again and again is interesting. Why does it always have to be a strong colonial Spain? Why not a resurgent Al Andalus? Why not Mali pushing through the Sahara and then the Mediterranean sea? Why always a strong HRE? Why not a slow decline or a complete explosion? Why always the same states too? You said it doesn't have to happen always, but railroaded means at least most of the times. How is it even possible to roleplay within history if the mechanics of the game don't simulate it properly? You know, the whole causes/consequences thing instead of the fate/essence thing.

I want to play, I don't want to be puppeteered by the devs. By the way, I don't consider games like Skyrim to be Rpgs. Just because there is character customisation and a story doesn't mean it is an Rpg. Otherwise Gta5, the Metroid serie and all the Mario games are also Rpgs. The only video games I call Rpgs are games like Baldur's Gate 3, Fallout New Vegas and the first two Fallout games. And even them are pale copies in comparison with a Dnd session for example.

It's ok if our history happens very rarely, because the more I learned history, the more I learned how unlikely everything was bound to happen. And I had more fun when eu4 didn't have those stressful flavour mission trees actually.

The only way I see this problem to be solved is to make flavour optional.

I do love having unique content.Makes playing different countries feel different and they have actually strengths and weaknesses unlike other games.

Fortunately you are in the minority as every time they have tried your sandbox approached its been a dissaster and people just demanding flavour because they get bored of all tags playing the same.

So tough for you. You can always mod it to get rid of all the content i guess
Is it? What if the problem is the lack of geographical particularities? Or the execution of the sandbox? I'd like to know because I didn't play Victoria 3.

That said, country unicity isn't as good as it sounds. The way y'all talk about it and about countries sounds like you talk about pokemons, each with their attacks, abilities, types and strength and weaknesses. This is the type of thing that should be modded lol, not sandbox.

There's a good amount of innate flavor that comes from starting situations (diplomatic or otherwise). Other than that, most countries also start with unique privileges, which I consider a welcome addition.
Born to shit
Forced to wipe
 
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