How much more are you going to nerf Ming?

[ianchen12345]

Not to be that guy, but I spent several paragraphs illustrating how the EoC mechanics reflect historical developments in Imperial China.


I'm playing a Ming game right now and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. What on earth do mission trees have to do with how much fun a country is to play? Mission trees could be completely removed from the game and nothing of value would be lost. EoC? It's much more interesting than yet another feudal monarchy with legitimacy mechanics. WC? Get outta here. If people want to do a WC, that's their business, but the game shouldn't be balanced around WC.

You think the mandate of Heaven really reflect what happened in real life? Like Ming can just ask people for ducats/stuff every few years or so? That's not what happened. The reverse is what happened which I have discussed about it in the forum back before Mandate of Heaven DLC is out. In real life, Ming usually send luxurious gifts to the tributaries instead of receiving them. Like do you think Ming would be so happy to receive some "fish" from Ryukyu?

Is the system fun? Back before mission tree was introduced we have these "missions" that can appear at random. And Ming has very few of these "missions" compared to the most majors in EU4. Even with so many freakin patches later, still the same. Mission tree didn't really add anything new to Ming tree.

Yes I can agree with you that the EoC mechanic is unique compared to most other countries but that is only true with the DLC MoH on. So people with no MoH (which is not the highest priority in terms of DLC purchase) would just have this generic blob that has nothing to do?

No one said anything about balancing the tag with WCs at all. If so, then hordes would need a huge nerf wouldn't it?

 

[Word_Smith]

You think the mandate of Heaven really reflect what happened in real life? Like Ming can just ask people for ducats/stuff every few years or so? That's not what happened. The reverse is what happened which I have discussed about it in the forum back before Mandate of Heaven DLC is out. In real life, Ming usually send luxurious gifts to the tributaries instead of receiving them. Like do you think Ming would be so happy to receive some "fish" from Ryukyu?

I mean you can read my previous posts in the thread if you want clarification. Obviously EoC/tributary mechanics are an abstraction. Obviously the Emperor historically probably didn't care about getting fish from the coast of Okinawa, but the game doesn't simulate the direct transfer of resources i.e. Victoria 2. Tribute is measured as gifts of ducats/monarch power because that's what the game is able to simulate.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "Ming usually send luxurious gifts to the tributaries instead of receiving them", but you are able to send gifts to tributaries as EoC. There are even events where you may reward loyal tributaries with gifts. It's not like the game portrays the tributary relationship as one-way.

oh no I argue things that are true to history. I was the one back in many patches ago to tell the devs to remove Manchu as part of Chinese culture because it doesnt make sense. So they removed it and people raged..

In my current Ming game, Manchu is still within the Chinese culture group. Unless you're implying that they changed it and then changed it back right away. I personally don't care either way, though I'm pretty sure Manchu is in the Chinese culture group to allow Qing to form more easily if Ming collapses.

You see, there are people who just didn't accept that a powerful eastern nation won't be easily conquered in real history, instead, blamed those who says the truth and accused them of "complain that their own IRL country/culture".

Ming collapsed despite its strength and wealth, and the pieces got conquered by the Manchu. If you don't think reflecting that in-game is historical, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[lilunxm12]

Also, I don't know what you mean by "Ming usually send luxurious gifts to the tributaries instead of receiving them", but you are able to send gifts to tributaries as EoC. There are even events where you may reward loyal tributaries with gifts. It's not like the game portrays the tributary relationship as one-way.

Ming always response tributes with extraordinary generous gifts to show mercy. So nations took advantage of that.
Some traders even disgused as foreign delegates to trade luxuries with garbage.
That caused a heavy burden and later Ming has to set up a special agency to regulate how frequent could each country sending tributes

 

[DebbieElla]

Reminder: Do not respond to trolls, just report and move on and the moderators will handle it. Do follow the rules, and be respectful.

 

[iClipse]

Manchu culture was changed to Evenk culture i think in 1.20-21? I thought that given your account is 2012 you should remember stuff like that.

Jurchen is Evenk. But it changes to manchu because of a mission (or forming Manchu itself? Can't remember exactly). After the change it's in the Chinese culture group.

 

[genyuab]

Ming collapsed despite its strength and wealth, and the pieces got conquered by the Manchu. If you don't think reflecting that in-game is historical, I don't know what to tell you.

Ming collapsed in 1644, not 1500s, and not because of unreasonable "Crisis of the Ming Dynasty". You don't need to tell me anything because I completely understand you

 

[JacobiteJames]

Jurchen is Evenk. But it changes to manchu because of a mission (or forming Manchu itself? Can't remember exactly). After the change it's in the Chinese culture group.

When it forms manchu, which made it awkward as no one could reform manchu when this first happened, as it required jurchen provinces which no longer existed.
Kinda accurate as the manchu weren't fully sinicised in 1444, and it helps ming not conquer the jurchen tribes, keeping them as triubtary instead

 

[gigau]

Closing this thread for a bit as a reminder to remain calm and respectful and respect everyone.

 

[gigau]

Unlocking the thread.

Remember to be civil and respectful, whether you disagree or not.

Consider this a last warning.

 

[genyuab]

Ming always response tributes with extraordinary generous gifts to show mercy. So nations took advantage of that.
Some traders even disgused as foreign delegates to trade luxuries with garbage.
That caused a heavy burden and later Ming has to set up a special agency to regulate how frequent could each country sending tributes

The frequency of tribute is regulated by the first emperor of Ming and the seaban was lifted in 1567.
"trade luxuries with garbage", source, please?
The attachment is one of contemporary research that supports my point of the trading aspect of the tributary system.

 

[holyvigil]

IMO Ming does not need to break apart more often. I think that EoC's Unify China CB needs to be buffed. I understand it's one of the most powerful cbs in the game. But China should really be unifed in one ruler's life time. It's a very limited CB limited to only China so making it even more powerful doesn't matter that much. The only thing buffing unify China cb does is unify china quicker.

Alternatively give anyone who claims EOC cores on all of China.

 

[JacobiteJames]

IMO Ming does not need to break apart more often. I think that EoC's Unify China CB needs to be buffed. I understand it's one of the most powerful cbs in the game. But China should really be unifed in one ruler's life time. It's a very limited CB limited to only China so making it even more powerful doesn't matter that much. The only thing buffing unify China cb does is unify china quicker.

Yes

Alternatively give anyone who claims EOC cores on all of China.

No perma claims and -1000 reasons to tributaries in china super region sans tibet and manchuria

 

[PrussicAcid]

IMO Ming does not need to break apart more often. I think that EoC's Unify China CB needs to be buffed. I understand it's one of the most powerful cbs in the game. But China should really be unifed in one ruler's life time. It's a very limited CB limited to only China so making it even more powerful doesn't matter that much. The only thing buffing unify China cb does is unify china quicker.

Alternatively give anyone who claims EOC cores on all of China.

You can give AI all the cores you want, it will only tributarise its neighbors as soon as possible.

Tributarisation needs to be reworked between chinese TAGs if you want this solution to work properly.

 

[JacobiteJames]

You can give AI all the cores you want, it will only tributarise its neighbors as soon as possible.

Tributarisation needs to be reworked between chinese TAGs if you want this solution to work properly.

Just have to do checks that they leave vietnam be more often than they conquer it

 

[Word_Smith]

I'll be honest, after my recent Ming game, I can not in any way see how some people can conclude that Ming is too weak/too nerfed. This was a very casual game where I was more concerned with nice borders than blobbing (still sad I couldn't grab the rest of Burma from Bengal). The crisis of the Ming Dynasty disaster was the only time in the game where I didn't feel like the immortal god-bully of east Asia. It was thoroughly fun, and EoC/tributary mechanics only enhanced the experience.

Borders

Spoiler

Culture (I'm a culture-conversion fanatic)

Spoiler

Chinese Culture (yeah, I convert culture-group cultures too, sue me)

Spoiler

Religion (All harmonized except Pagan/Dharmic)

Spoiler

Economy

Spoiler

Great Powers/Hegemons

Spoiler

Americas (for interest's sake)

Spoiler

If anything, Ming is too stable in the late game, leading me to miss out on playing revolutionary China even though the revolution spawned in Beijing.

 

[Victoria 3 finally]

IMO Ming does not need to break apart more often. I think that EoC's Unify China CB needs to be buffed. I understand it's one of the most powerful cbs in the game. But China should really be unifed in one ruler's life time. It's a very limited CB limited to only China so making it even more powerful doesn't matter that much. The only thing buffing unify China cb does is unify china quicker.

Alternatively give anyone who claims EOC cores on all of China.

The Qing are a special case in how fast they conquered China. The average is usually between 100-50 years.

 

[Jihem]

Maybe we need generic mission trees for the Chinese tags resulting from the Ming dislocation, and not just a CB on the area ?

 

[Tuan Mic]

This "Crisis of Ming Dynasty" disaster should be appeared in Age of Absolutism, not Age of Reformation. I'm too tired to see Mingplosion in XVI century in every Origins DLC's timelapses instead of XVII century.
Ming's current mission trees is obviously useless. How much more are you going to nerf Ming?

 

[dD_ShockTrooper]

To bring back the original topic of "How much more are you going to nerf Ming?" personally I'm going to nerf them pretty hard with perpetual bankruptcy in order to finance my country using withdrawals from the "1st Bank of Ming". I will continue to do so at least until the Age of Discovery ends and the bank unfortunately collapses due to financial mismanagement. I would welcome any buffs you could give to the stability of my revenue stream.

 

[JacobiteJames]

This "Crisis of Ming Dynasty" disaster should be appeared in Age of Absolutism, not Age of Reformation. I'm too tired to see Mingplosion in XVI century in every Origins DLC's timelapses instead of XVII century.
Ming's current mission trees is obviously useless. How much more are you going to nerf Ming?

What sort of mission tree do you want the highest dev empire at game start with no disaster for 100 years to have?