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A more detailed law system could flesh out governments more rather than just an abstract crown authority that each side wants to move their way. Each law have its own benefits and drawbacks, allowing for variation rather than one set of laws that you always want to go for.
Also, something like the scales power when transitioning to a new government type. Some vassal might try to rebel, preferring the old way while events could pop up during a, say, 5 year transition period between moving between government types.
I'm not sure if 100% modularity is what is needed or available, but that degrees of variability would creare different kinds of gameplay would be appreciated.
From what it sounds like in All Under Heaven, China, Japan and Korea, and Southeast Asia are all going to be receiving different government types, in addition to the release of Nomads in less than a month, to make at least 4 government types. While we lack details, the mechanics implied make it sound like playing as the Jin dynasty will be different than playing as the Khmer, whether that's rules of engagement, different interrealm/foreign interactions, a mana to spend, MAA and warfaring limits, etc. Given how we've been able to enjoy playing as just tribes, clans, and feudal for 4 years before last fall's Administrative government, I think this'll open up a lot of new ways for us to play and interact with the game, with different mechanics in different parts of the world to try out through several different playthroughs.
Meanwhile, in present CK3, the only difference between tribal subsaharan africa and tribal ireland is the men at arms and cultural tradition modifiers. Feudal India is the same as feudal Germany, though Catholics can participate in a Holy War and Hindus can take multiple wives. A clan of Maghrebi Bebers is the same clan as Ghurid Afghanistan. We've played most of these same campaigns already, it's now just got a different coat of paint to it.
Similarly, most differences between religions are modifiers at best -- marriage laws, holy wars, heads of faith, and realm priests are the only consistent "mechanics" that are consistently interacted with. Sending sons to monasteries is just another method of disqualifiying someone from succession, using a different resource. No, getting +5% piety for using the Pilgrimage mechanic doesn't make it different relgious "feature." A custom relgion might make things fresh in the short term, but there are limits on how much the doctrines really affect our gameplay.
I don't mean this to be mean of the CK3 team, data is limited and production times are critical. And, especially, AI logic and optimization is difficult on the best day. Adding a whole ton of complications would not do any good--but the history represented in this timeframe is anything but limited, logical, or optimized.
My personal want would either be for these systems to have different government types that influence different styles of play, such as how Administrative gives so many different affect in comparison to feudal/clan, or ways for Feudal to have variants with actual mechanical interactions to represent different historical representations, so that playing as a Feudal Empire with an Itinerant Court and the Imperial Church has MECHANICAL differences from a Centralized Feudal Kingdom with Gallicanism or a rising Duchy colony with syncretic Missionaries, etc. A failing Administrative Empire with strong regional governors that'll split into feudal states versus a bureaucractic juggernaut whose influence will become adopted by all who take over its cities. Does a lord only answer to his council, a senate of noble families, a parliament of powerful lords, or a diet of all of his vassals? Do the clerics have any say in governement, or the actions one can perform, be it diplomatic, warfare, or internal? What about cities - are republics really a thing other than money pots, and what about their historic rise to prominence via the commercial revolution?
Roads to Power gave us plenty of new mechanics that influence gameplay and playing around with/affecting mechanics gives more options and variability than +10% Levies from Patrilineal Vassals on Tuesdays.
Let AI behavior be driven by traditons and with new affects that can be unlocked over time through innovations -- things that a liege would want, things thar a vassal would want, things that a head of faith would want, so that an England formed in 867 is not the same as England still played in 1452 (without becoming Administrative) View attachment 1272519
Look at the data: collected before RTP, and so no Administrative governments, and there's no differentiation between start dates either, so assumptions have to be made between 867 and 1066.
Britannia has the mechanical shift from tribal viking or Ireland to feudal, as well as the heart of the Anglosphere and Tutorial island.
France has Hæstinn to adventure outside, else it's the prime feudal/crusading experience, right there along England.
Scandinavia is that tribal to feudal shift again, but more directly.
Byzantium had primogeniture and is the favorite of Romaboos.
Spain has a Struggle between Feudal and Clan polities.
What regions are excluded here and what mechanical variations do they offer that can't already be used above?
Different starting positions give a fine setting, and that's something that can be enjoyed if you have a love for a region/family/character, but, across the wider community, would require some uniqueness to stand out to show what you love.
Give West Africa a "Munsa" government type and East Africa as "Negus" government, instead of the same wrote Feudal system. Give them a couple of different mechanics for vassal management, MAA/levies, and the African weather patterns, and then save the finer detailing and complications for its focused DLC. India can have a mix between feudal and what the Mandala system will get (heck, use the time between All under Heaven as a testing ground), while Tibet is Monastic Feudal with some different Buddhist mechanics around the Karma tied to ownership "Temple Complexes" that can be upgraded in various forms like Estates, with fights over followers to the most prestigious monastery (within your own realm and externally). I dont want to call them mini-games, but at least something fairly interactable on top/on the side of regular gameplay.
But, importantly, a clan should be a clan, a feudal a feudal, etc. For the fear of repeating mechanics, which does save on dev time but makes things blend together, there should be exclusive mechanics between governments that make them unique, whether its a mana type like Influence that's paired with Schemes, different types of landless buildings, various economic or military structures, something that gives different spins across the world.
My Suggestion for modular implementation is still in progress, but it will, one day, be completed to be ignored on that forum
Modularity in government types should be measured through cultural beliefs, religion and most important of all, laws and policies. Your religion and culture should determine what set of policies and laws you get to pass, laws that increase monarch power and influence could turn you into a full dictatorship and in turn into an administrative autocracy, laws that increase the influence of nobility could slowly transform your realm into a deeply fuedal realm depending on the monarch with fuedalism ranging from an English or Spanish fuedal system to a hre or early French system with nobles having pretty much all the power and being able to freely break away. The current system of realm laws completely fails to reflect any sort of dynamic change in governmental policies as you just click on a button and pay prestige for a few extra bonuses which may make some Vassals mad, ck2's conclave was flawed but I really don't get why they didn't build upon it and improve it's flaws to improve realm management to the point that individual laws could be passed that all build up to defining what exactly your realm is and how it's governed.
I really don't get why they didn't build upon it and improve it's flaws to improve realm management to the point that individual laws could be passed that all build up to defining what exactly your realm is and how it's governed.
Absence of flavor is not an inherent part of any modular system. Flavor will not appear by itself in a rigid system.
From programming perspective it doesn't matter if you tie unique mechanics to the single religion/culture/government itself or if you tie them to the tenet/tradition/law.
I agree with both of you that the game lacks significant difference between most parts of the world. But to get true real christian flavor (whatever it is) Devs actually have to spend some time adding it into the game. Dont blame modularity.
I'm no expert in African medieval societies, so excuse me if what I present is entirely ahistoric and/or based off of groundless pop culture/ahistoric video game mechanics. This could also be entirely stereotypical in a negative sense, broadwashing far too many peoples and cultures with my lack of understanding: if ignorance is made, I apologize, but I'm just brainstorming some kind of gameplay ideas first. For that, I'll just give an example for West Africa for now
For West Africa, I'll mainly base things off of the Mali Empire, which had ruled over a landmass as large as France and Spain combined. Further ideas could also come from the Ghana Empire and maybe (out of period) elements of Songhai. I'm sure the coastal kingdoms of Benin and Niger had entirely different kinds of societies
Cattle trade
Extensive Saharan gold and salt mines
Sundiata (1217 – 1255) and the magic balafon
Mansa Munsa (r.. 1312 – 1337), whose wealth massively inflated those countries he passed through on Hajj
Conversion to Islam
Farimba Cavalry
Universities
The Myth of Prester John
Slave raids/warriors (presently, a nono in CK3)
Economics
-change the Sahel drylands terrain into a unique Savanna terrain type, which can be used to associated buildings in the area. They would have a greater access to more cavalry buildings, such as the Camelry and Horse Herds buildings, especially since the latter will probably be taken away from nomads later this year. In return, the Savanna will lose access to Fields and Farmlands, thus making them more reliant on Cattle pastures and Desert Agriculture, with the exceptions for the few floodplains and plains baronies that do exist.
-Somewhat similar to Nomads, the West African pastoralists greatly depended on the wealth of their herds more than industrial farmlands; they, too, have access to the Herd mechanic, with Cattle Pastures, Camelry, Horse Herds, and Hillside Grazing Lands providing towards this. Meanwhile, with reduced economic output from their direct lands, the Munsa can exchange Herd for gold, prestige, piety, gifts of opinion, events, etc, and are necessary towards creating cavalry MAA, like the nomads. However, vassals do not contribut Herd as taxes to their liege, it is only self-produced
-The only Herd that can be transferred is as dowry during a marriage, else raided or schemed away
-there is a max cap to how much herd one can have (specifically set by Catfle Herd buildings), so you can't just float thousands of cows at any time
-Tribal West Africans will also have access to Herds, since you don't need a castle/city to herd cattle, but cannot convert them into Gold.
-Historical note: the the jungle kingdoms along the southern African coast did not use herds as much, but their scope in-game is rather limited. Cattle Herds can be built in Jungle Terrain, so it's not as much of a problem, if not showing the economic disparity of those jungle tribes
Hillside Grazing Herds vs Warrior Lodges range
Liege-Vassal Relations
-My main idea is that, while individual vassals are subject to a liege, they are managed via "tribal families," which is, to say, Cultures. There are a lot of tribal identities in west Africa, with plenty of unique histories and conflicts between each group, and the struggle for unity/power over others were driving factors for conflicts within Ghana and Mali, producing both good times and bad. That being said, there are a ton of cultures in Africa, so this could be tedious, but I feel that grouping by Heritage is a bit too limiting (as there's more than just the Akan, Guinean Uplanders, Sahelians, Senegambians, and Central Africans)
-Every Tribal Family (I know this is redundant wording with the present Tribal government, but Tribe is the modern recognition with the people groups sharing the same culture and language) under a Mansa is grouped by their interior culture head, which is to say, the strongest member of that culture within the Mansa (not the same as the overall culture head who decides on innovations). Basically, "I am the strongest Songhai in the Soninke Mansa, I represent all of the Songhai within his Mansa" and they receive the honorific appointment title of "ton-tigi" (fully, it is "ton-ta-jon-ta-ni-woro")
-Somewhat like Clan Tax Jurisdictions of Zakat and Iqta, a top liege has to interact with one ton-tigi for each culture, whose contract then afffects the rest of the members of his or her culture, and how much taxes, levies, prestige/piety, etc they contribute to their liege, with their sum of stats adding to their ton-tigi aptitude, though their efficiency is multiplied by Cultural Acceptance
-Meanwhile, members of a culture can contest their ton-tigi and, if they have more soldiers, can go to war to claim the ton-tigi if Crown Authority is less than 3--otherwise, they need a hook on their liege, else try to petition themselves to their liege if they have a higher aptitude
-Only ton-tigi can chose to join a faction, but they also bring the strength of their entire culture with them, forcibly following as allies
Military
-Only ton-tigi not of your culture are allowed to serve as commanders (as they are the "quiver-masters"), unless a special law on military professionalism is passed allowing for unlanded nobles and then another law then non-nobles
-while there presently aren't any other unique MAA in west africa, a Mansa would be able to recruit and expand MAA from a culture that has a 70% cultural acceptance ton-tigi
-every cultural head must designate an "exalted" MAA, which gives bonuses to that type of MAA at the cost of weaking all of the others. By specializing their warrior culture, it also reduces the costs for their associated Military Building, upkeep, and batallion expansion
-A Mansa can station MAA in the capitals of his or her ton-tigi, gaining the effects from that culture's traditions, Exalted MAA choice, and the local barony buildings. If a ton-tigi is usurped, it'll automatically be reassigned to the new ton-tigi's capital
-expanding MAA usually comes with an associated herd cost, while the Sahel Horsemen line require herd to create, expand, replenish, and maintain
-the jungles, forests, and swamps of southern west africa have a Tsetse fly modifer that absolutely devestates cavalry forces (99% decrease), which can allow them to fight back against Sahel forces that are specialized in horsemen
Greater Society
-With this much focus on having different cultures within a Mansa, the Cultural Conversion task is only possible within a character's domain, and doing so will GREATLY impact Cultural Acceptance with said culture (depleting at, like, 10% per year or something) and almost immediately force that ton-tigi into a rebellious faction
-it will also prompt neighbors of that culture to aspire to create a confederation
-Without implementations of trade, it's hard to demonstrate the effects of Islam's influence in the region, but there could be some kind of event system that gives rewards for converting to/staying the relgion of strong kingdoms across the Sahara; otherwise, it was relatively religiously synthetic -- maybe have a different kind of Chaplain/Realm Priest, sorta like how Stargazers are for nomads
-There could be some kind of greater dilemma to the Gold Mines, but, without a deeper economic engine for inflation or a way to display constant need for slaves to work in the mines, would be difficult. I hate event spam, but there could be longterm narrative events about a lack of gold from the mines that decreases output by 90% until an event eventually finds more gold, or long periods of gold production produce a Mansa-wide 20% increase on costs until gold can be spent away
-Mansa practice primogeniture, which is always a plus
Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays in which we take a look at the flavourful content created for the super secret Project Caesar! But before we start, I want to share with you that we have a new job opening in...
With around 3,000 tribes, Africa is a continent with fascination around every corner. Here are some tribes to give you an idea of their history, and lifestyle.
Would this system be the best? Probably not, and there are plenty coding inefficiencies and ahistoricalities that I inserted in here because I was thinking of game play first. But it plays differently and I think that's more what people want than just "the idea of Feudal France but in Africa" and that's never stopped Paradox from making a product before
For East Africa, some spitball ideas would be for some kind of religious influences, but also the effects of inland/coastal Africa that aren't integrated. The idea that the Horn of Africa could be semi-nomadic is a good idea, and maybe there can be a set of unique interactions between the settled and semi-nomadic herders. If Zanzibar isn't included in the map extension (since it is on the same level of Indonesia), it can be some kind of Jade Dragon-esque trading influence that feeds slaves resources up the coast into Arabia, Egypt, and Persia.
Spitballing some other ideas on April 1st
-Maybe it could use the same kind of ton-tigi system, called Ras, but they are also seperated by religion, since there are less cultures? ie, seperate Christian and Muslim Somali Ras under a Ethiopian Negus
-less focus on cattle, not required for MAA, but more as an alternative economic source, with better gold exchange rates for cattle due to trade networks, especially if owning important ports
-nomadi Somalis/tribals utilize them trade deals
-level of religious devotion impacts legitimacy, decreasing if not matching an appropriate level
-council members must be from the Ras
-like steppe kuraltai, council members have no defined role, and can select from the different attributes (a real priest always being necessary)
-some legalism about the Fetha Nagast
-similar to the gold mines, mabye some effect along the nile (spread this to owners of Egypt as well) like RICE
-Speaking of Egypt, a Baqt mini-struggle about Egyptian-Makurian peace that incrases the cost of CB between the kingdoms -- it can be maintained with diplomacy and (trade pending) or broken via wars and intrigue; either to be rebuilt or cast aside
To address the identified issues, I propose making governments modular. To achieve this, I propose changes to three key elements vassal contracts,realm laws and dynasty/house mechanics. In the end I discuss why I proposed this and what the potential benefits are. (This is the second version of this idea, more simplified to give a better overview, but it now also lacks some nuance. Just think if fits for this thread).
Vassal contracts
In this mod, the vassal contracts consist of three parts: contract type, taxation level, and rights. Contract types are composed of all the feudal, clan, and admin contract types. The taxation level defines the vassal’s duties to their liege, specifically concerning taxation and faction dynamics. Unlike military duties, taxation focuses only on economic contributions, thus levies are always collected. Lastly rights add extra flavour.
Types
Basic/Balanced
Default vassal contract
Muqata/Palatinate
Less taxes
Vassal prestige gain
Dehqan
More taxes
Requires the enlightened magnates tradition
Military/Iqta/Castellan
Less taxes
More levies
Naval
Less taxes
More levies
Maguh
Less taxes
Requires brilliance dynasty legacy lv 4.
Civilian/Scutage
More taxes
Less levies
Zakat
More taxes
Vassal piety gain
Requires Islamic religion
Theocratic contract
Less taxes
Vassal must be clergy
Requires theocratic clergy
Liege piety gain
Frontier/Ghazi/March
Less taxes
Vassal can raid
Jizya
More taxes
Vassal prestige loss
Requires Islamic religion
Protected against conversion and title revocation
Imperial
Increased vassal prestige and influence
Becomes primary heir if family.
Taxation level
None
Low
Medium
High
Mechanic
No taxation
Tax tours
Tax collectors
Fixed tax
Associated cost:
No cost
Tax tours organization cost
Wage of tax collectors
Wage for vassals
Rights
Council rights
Marriage favour (only if religion and/or culture has multiple spouses)
Inheritance rights, default on if lower than large administration level. Requires intervention from the liege to revoke inheritance rights and turn the vassal into acclamation succession.
Change
To make gameplay better I propose that you can change vassal contracts more than once (but still add a five-year cooldown or something) and that you can use both hooks and influence to change vassal contracts.
Realm Laws
To make governments more modular, elements previously tied to government types will now be distributed across various laws. These laws govern aspects such as ruler authority, administration level, and succession types, allowing for greater flexibility and customization of a realm’s structure.
Crown/Ruler authority
This law represents the personal power of the ruler and their influence over vassals. Liberty factions attempt to reduce the level of this law.
Level
Low
Medium
High
Absolute
Law change requirements
Impossible except ruler authority
Unanimous support of powerful vassals
Majority support of powerful vassals
Always
Allowed actions
Vassal retraction
Title revocation
Refusing orders is a crime
Designate heir
Vassal directives
Opinion
change
Small
Medium
Large
Administration level
This law determines the realm’s level of centralization. The gold cost reflects the need to train and employ bureaucrats, potentially scaling with realm size. The level of this law also determines what taxation level is possible and which other realm law options are available.
Level
No administration
Small administration
Medium administration
Large administration
Tax allowed
No tax
Tax tours
Tax collection
Fixed tax
Vassal limit
+50
+100
+200
Gold
-5
-10
-20
Succession types
Confederate partition
(High) Partition
Single heir
Elective/acclamation
Theocratic
Appointment
Kurultai
Clan
Gender law
Same as vanilla.
Religious law
No realm faith
Disallows ask conversion
Preferred realm faith
Allows ask conversion
Realm faith
Allows ask conversion
Introduces state faith
War policy
Everyone
Frontier and naval
No one
House/dynasty mechanics
To still have significant flavour I propose to separate dynasty interactions from realm interaction. Where house head can select how they want to manage their house.
House
Allows cadet branches
Clan
Unlocks house unity
Does not allow cadet branches
Unlocks clan succession
Unlocked by multiple spouses
Bureaucratic/merchant
Enables domicile
Enables influence
Does not allow cadet branches.
I developed this mod concept to address several issues I encountered while playing (and was partly inspired by a video from OneProudBavarian). These issues include:
Rough transitions between government types
The current system has abrupt transitions from tribal to feudal/clan and from feudal/clan to administrative, lacking any gradual or nuanced progression. This is demonstrated by game rules that allow for certain realms to become administrative, implying that these realms sit somewhere between feudal/clan and administrative in terms of structure. Also, centralization currently operates as a one-way street always going tribal -> feudal/clan -> admin. (Although IMO , the clan government is positioned between feudal and administrative systems in terms of centralization). This makes it impossible to organically replicate the decentralization. For example, historically, the early caliphates inherited the administrative systems of the Sassanid Empire but later experienced decentralization, much like the Carolingian and Roman systems, but the latter experienced it even worse. On the other hand, administrative realms—cough, cough Byzantines—become overwhelmingly powerful and permanently stable, never truly experiencing moments of weakness or fragmentation. Hopefully with this proposal, there will be more flexibility between government types.
Flavour unnecessarily locked
Some flavour is limited to specific situations. For instance, transitioning to an administrative government as Persia results in the loss of the Dehqan tax decree. Why can’t Dehqan be used in an administrative realm? Also, this proposal enables regional flavour by adding vassal contract types and rights unique to certain cultures, religions, and dynasty legacies.
Compatibility issues
Currently, the interactions between government types are a bit strange. For example, when I transition to an administrative realm as clan, I can still assign administrative vassal to a tax decree. On the other hand, I can’t assign Christian feudal vassal to a Jizya tax decree even if this make the most sense. Now it should also be possible to add the Tulunids as vassal to the Abbasid caliphate, just with low taxation obligation. And more generally allow realm with a centralized core and a more decentralized periphery.
DLC features
Ideally a modular government will be directly implemented. However, paradox still needs DLCs. Therefore, to make this DLC compatible, the highest taxation and administration law levels, acclamation and appointments, dynasty mechanics, and flavour can be locked behind the Roads to power and upcoming Khans of the steppe DLC. On the other hand, as I don’t know how the nomadic government will work out, it could make more sense to have two government types: sedentary and nomadic.
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