How to quickly explain HRE to 12-13 years old kids ?

[Pelthis]

Everything is in the title. I'm actually doing my first steps as a history teacher, under the overseing of an actual teacher. And my issue is the following one :

The class I have to teach to is made of 12-13 years old kids. Most of them seems pretty smart (they're not the annoying dumbass kind of kids) but their historic knowledge seems to be... approximate for the less. As we're in Switzerland, the main topic I have to teach them about are the origins of Switzerland. But I feel like I can't really explain the origins of Switzerland if the kids haven't the slightest grap on what exactly HRE is. I remind from my own histroy classes when I was their age, teachers thought HRE was too complicated to teach about so they basically give up on this. So in the end of my school years, even though I already liked hsitory, the only thing I knew about HRE was "These are some funny letter to talk about something german in the middle ages". So I don't want to reproduce this sad narrative with the class I'm supposed to teach to.
But of course it's a very dense and complex topic and as it's not even the main thing in the program, but only some background I want to give them to allow them to understand better where the fuck Switzerland came from and why the fuck they were fighting Austrians. Knowing that I definitely haven't many hours to properly explain them everything.

I'm already thinking about how I could deal with it but it's hard to know where to start, given that half of the kids seems to not understand the difference between HRE and actual Roman Empire.

So any hint idea, map, document or idk what else is welcome.

Thanks in advance

 

[Abdul Goatherd]

Start with Charlemagne.

constructs vast Frankish kingdom + granted imperial title by Pope in Rome 800.

Frankish kingdom breaks up into four kingdoms: France, Burgundy, Germany & Italy, with Papal States spun off as separate entity.
Otto becomes king of both Germany & Italy.
Conrad adds Burgundy.
Pope crowns them emperors in Rome, thus also giving them authority in Papal States.
Starts being called "Holy Roman Empire" during Conrad's reign.

So HRE = dominions of four crowns = 3 ex-Frankish kingdoms + 1 imperial feather.

What is now Switzerland was then part of the ex-Frankish Kingdom of Burgundy, ruled by Burgundian lords.

In theory, the lords & barons of each ex-Frankish kingdom separately elected & crowned their own king. But from Conrad onwards, the assemblies of lords of the three kingdoms (Germans, Burgundians, Italians) routinely elected ("acclaimed") the same one guy. And the pope chose and crowned the emperor, which was also routinely the same guy.

So same one guy required four separate elections & coronations in Aachen (Germany), Arles (Burgundy), Pavia (Italy) and St. Peter's in Rome (Imperial) to become "Holy Roman Emperor".

As the Middle Ages advanced, elections were streamlined and Burgundian coronation conflated into ceremony of German coronation, but Italy & Rome still require separate coronations.
Then much later Italian coronation became conflated into German-Burgundian ceremony.
So now three crowns in one go - guy is no longer called "King of Germany and Burgundy and Italy" but simply "King of the Romans" (for short) or even more simply "Emperor-elect".
But still require separate imperial coronation in Rome to be "Holy Roman Emperor" proper.

From Golden Bull of 1356 elections simplified into seven electors: the three Archbishops of Cologne, Trier & Mainz, the Count Palatine of the Rhine, the Margrave of Brandenburg, the Duke of Saxony and the Duke/King of Bohemia. The seven alone, rather than all lords of the three kingdoms, chose the "Emperor-elect".

Royal institutions for the three kingdoms over time also became conflated, so there emerged only one council, one chancery, one assembly, one court system, etc. for all three kingdoms, so the three kingdoms become gradually merged into one state ("the Empire"). But these central institutions are very weak, and so the state is not very centralized. Sub-units (Duchies, Margraviates, Counties, Bishoprics, etc.) are practically independent.

Again, throughout all this, to become "Holy Roman Emperor" proper still requires imperial coronation by Pope in Rome. From the 16th C., HR Emperor stopped bothering to go to Rome to get crowned by the pope (too much trouble). So, technically, there is no more "Holy Roman Emperors" after that but only "Holy Roman Emperors-elect". But everyone just calls them "HR Emperors" for simplicity.

Too much?

 

[Pelthis]

Thank you very much ! That already gives me a good point to start with because I think every kid has at least heard once the name of Charlemagne. Then maybe there is too much details for them especially given the short timelapse I have to tell them about this, but for me it's never too much, it really helps me a lot.
Thank you again my kind sir

 

[Sarmatia1871]

It depends what the context of the lesson is and what historical period you're talking about. If it's a whole lesson on medieval or early-modern Germany, the Papal-Imperial conflict, or the Thirty Years War, you might have to explain it in some depth.

If it's fairly tangential to the main theme of the class, then something along the lines of "In this period, in roughly what's now Germany (but also including <<Main territories outside of current Germany the HRE includes at that particular point, as this obviously changes a bit over time>>) there's a fairly loose collection of states under the authority of an emperor - this is called 'The Holy Roman Empire'" will be enough.

One really important thing to learn when teaching is that students don't have to know everything, and trying to teach them too much or going off on too many tangents just becomes confusing, overwhelming or distracting. They just need enough relevant context so that the main big thing you're trying to teach them makes sense.

 

[Abdul Goatherd]

It depends what the context of the lesson is and what historical period you're talking about. If it's a whole lesson on medieval or early-modern Germany, the Papal-Imperial conflict, or the Thirty Years War, you might have to explain it in some depth.

If it's fairly tangential to the main theme of the class, then something along the lines of "In this period, in roughly what's now Germany (but also including <<Main territories outside of current Germany the HRE includes at that particular point, as this obviously changes a bit over time>>) there's a fairly loose collection of states under the authority of an emperor - this is called 'The Holy Roman Empire'" will be enough.

One really important thing to learn when teaching is that students don't have to know everything, and trying to teach them too much or going off on too many tangents just becomes confusing, overwhelming or distracting. They just need enough relevant context so that the main big thing you're trying to teach them makes sense.

Changes a bit over time? The geographic boundaries of the HRE were quite well defined from the outset by Conrad. Didn't change much since.

Calling HRE = "Germany plus some" is mischievous, and affronts non-Germans (esp. Italians). It was the union of three kingdoms.

That's like calling the UK = "England plus some".

Particularly if you're doing the history of Switzerland, it is worth emphasizing it was originally part of Burgundy, not Germany. Swiss patriots need to resist German imperialism.

 

[Sarmatia1871]

Changes a bit over time? The geographic boundaries of the HRE were quite well defined from the outset by Conrad. Didn't change much since.

Calling HRE = "Germany plus some" is mischievous, and affronts non-Germans (esp. Italians). It was the union of three kingdoms.

That's like calling the UK = "England plus some".

Particularly if you're doing the history of Switzerland, it is worth emphasizing it was originally part of Burgundy, not Germany. Swiss patriots need to resist German imperialism.

Yes, if you are discussing the Holy Roman Empire on an internet forum populated by dedicated history nerds, these are potential things to debate.

If you're attempting to explain it to a bunch of 12 year olds who've never heard of it before, things need to be on a different level.

 

[Pelthis]

It depends what the context of the lesson is and what historical period you're talking about. If it's a whole lesson on medieval or early-modern Germany, the Papal-Imperial conflict, or the Thirty Years War, you might have to explain it in some depth.

As the first lesson will be about Switzerland's "birth" the period I'l lfocus on will be late XIIIth century, early XIVth.

I know I have to avoid confusing the kids, but I feel like that if I don't give them proper background for the topic they'll be studying, it will be more confusing on the long run. I mean, for now we're only talking about Switzerland, but the whole schedule for histroy classes of middle school is about european politics. And I feel like you can't really understand middle ages / Renaissance era european events without knowing at least the generics about HRE.

 

[Eusebio]

To cover the HRE to the depth Abdul wants without confusing your 12 year olds any further you'd probably have to spend an entire lesson plus on the nature of Medieval kingship and politics in general in the Middle Ages. Like, I doubt your students would know why a coronation is important and what it is supposed to symbolise and how it specifically confers legitimacy, what it means for a locality to to be part of a kingdom in this period or know anything about the interaction between barons and the monarchy etc. so I wouldn't think that telling them about these political concepts is really going to improve their understanding of Swiss history.

I mean, ultimately all history is "turtles all the way down" anyway. Even world-leading experts in a field, if they drill down far enough, reach a point of micro detail where their knowledge is abstracted.

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

The HRE is not for children. it should be rated 18+ like cigarettes and porn.

 

[Easy-Kill]

The HRE is not for children. it should be rated 18+ like cigarettes and porn.

Not sure ... i had more interest in those when I was 13 than I do now!

 

[Avernite]

To cover the HRE to the depth Abdul wants without confusing your 12 year olds any further you'd probably have to spend an entire lesson plus on the nature of Medieval kingship and politics in general in the Middle Ages. Like, I doubt your students would know why a coronation is important and what it is supposed to symbolise and how it specifically confers legitimacy, what it means for a locality to to be part of a kingdom in this period or know anything about the interaction between barons and the monarchy etc. so I wouldn't think that telling them about these political concepts is really going to improve their understanding of Swiss history.

I mean, ultimately all history is "turtles all the way down" anyway. Even world-leading experts in a field, if they drill down far enough, reach a point of micro detail where their knowledge is abstracted.

Tangential to this thread, but I would be interested in you expounding on all these points

As to the HRE, in the Netherlands this issue is wholely folded into a simplified 'us vs the Spanish' storyline; would it not be simpler, for Switzerland, to make it simply 'us vs the Habsburgs and assorted other lords in the area, with those Habsburgs trying to curtail our independence'? It doesn't really matter if the ruler limiting local rights is a vaguely elected monarch like most HREmperors, a truly elected one like the Polish, a hereditary monarch like the kings of Spain, or an absolutist monarch like the British Georges - the story remains mostly the same.

 

[diegosimeone]

That's like calling the UK = "England plus some".

That's what it is, no?
At least that's what everyone else in the world thinks.

 

[pithorr]

I thought it's pretty easy... HRE was not Holy nor Roman and definetly not an Empire.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

and Voltaires brainfart again. Its the equivalent of a Goodwin. It is guaranteed to come up if someone mentions the HRE.

 

[pithorr]

and Voltaires brainfart again. Its the equivalent of a Goodwin. It is guaranteed to come up if someone mentions the HRE.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

You did this on purpose ?
Be my champion today

 

[Fluffy_Fishy]

On a slightly more serious note I bought this book a few years back that gives a basic but decent oversight over the empire, probably around the right level for classroom too, saying that I haven't read or even looked at it for years but I was pretty happy with it when I read it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1494728958/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Pelthis]

Thanks again for your help, I should be ready for tomorrow. I'll poke the kids a bit and depending on how they react I'll go deeper or not, but still trying to make it quick.
God. reading this sentence again makes it sound so wrong, but as it wasn't on purpose I'll let it as it is.

 

[Henry IX]

OK, advice from an experienced teacher here:

1. Get a map showing the rough boundaries of the HRE without countries marked. Explain this the empire Charlemagne set up. Get the students to name as many of the modern countries as they can covered by the Empire.

2. Tell them that the empire changed a lot over the next couple of hundred years and that it was very chaotic with lots of the bits of the Empire fighting each other.

3. Start talking about the specific details that triggered the formation of Switzerland.

Total time for parts 1 and 2: less than 15 mins.

Focus on what you want them to learn. If it is simply setting the scene keep it simple. What do they NEED to know to understand the origins of Switzerland? What is the most efficient way to make sure most of them will get this information?

Everything you do flows from what you want them to learn.

 

[Pelthis]

Thanks. When I compared what you said to what I planned, I figured out that I was up for countless losses of time, so I shall definitely take example from what you wrote. This last minute idea will probably save me a lot of trouble. So I don't regret my insomnia.