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How will the military orders support themselves?

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Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri
Nov 24, 2000
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If the orders such as those of Calatrava and Hospitalers and Templars are run (by the AI with player influence) like a dynasty how will they support themselves? Aside from (perhaps) controlling a few counties in the Holy Land etc. is there going to be enough income from other sources to keep them afloat? While they all had plenty of land throughout Europe, none of it was enough in any one place to say that they owned a county. Pretty sure that monetary donations could be given to them but what about counties? Even if counties are donated, will there be enough income?

Of course all of this is predecated on the fact that they have to operate like any other dynasty in the game - a fact not yet established.:)
 
I suppose that you cannot play an order but rather try as a dynasty to interact with them (they can for example provide you with "missions") or even to control them.

And a good way to gain influence is to give them donations or award them priviledgdes... which provide ressources for the orders.
 
Originally posted by Sonny
If the orders such as those of Calatrava and Hospitalers and Templars are run (by the AI with player influence) like a dynasty how will they support themselves? Aside from (perhaps) controlling a few counties in the Holy Land etc. is there going to be enough income from other sources to keep them afloat? While they all had plenty of land throughout Europe, none of it was enough in any one place to say that they owned a county. Pretty sure that monetary donations could be given to them but what about counties? Even if counties are donated, will there be enough income?

Of course all of this is predecated on the fact that they have to operate like any other dynasty in the game - a fact not yet established.:)
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oh yeah they could for example templars were some of the leading bankers in europe during the time of their exsistence and also hospitalers and templars had a right to be exempted from church tithes and indeed they could claim local church tithe for themselves...also they got money from acting as military advisors for the europeam monarchs.
 
It would make sense to me if the income for the orders was based on their influence with various "states" or dynasties in the game. If they had a lot of land in Germany, then their income could be based on their relations with the princes in Germany.

Just a thought.
 
Re: Re: How will the military orders support themselves?

Originally posted by khurjan


oh yeah they could for example templars were some of the leading bankers in europe during the time of their exsistence and also hospitalers and templars had a right to be exempted from church tithes and indeed they could claim local church tithe for themselves...also they got money from acting as military advisors for the europeam monarchs.
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There might be a way to simulate the fact that all those young nobles who joined various knightly orders also brought along considerable real estate to the organizations... The Templars in particular held an impressive array of land throughtout Europe: the total "worth" of the order, in today's terms, made it the richest "corporation" in history ;)
 
Originally posted by cato
maybe they could organize a raffle or have a bake sale to raise money :D
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lol just as i thought someone has to throw a monkey wrench into the spanners lol :D



it will be interesting how will they classify the workings of these orders becuase as i can see all these small features adds up in complications of programming if they leave out somme features i wont mind as we got to appluade them sergei (my fav rotten tomato target) and his team as they pulling off something that alot of bigger studios are afraid to do
 
Since the orders are not playable (and not even hinted at being playable like the Muslims) there could be special rules as some have suggested here where prestige or something similar from which their income is derived. Or perhaps they do not function like dynasties and can recruit men and get supplies for free just as a hard-coded part of the game.

As far as gaining $$$ from church tithes etc. - well, not all militant orders were monastic - so that would not work for them.

:)
 
Originally posted by Sonny
Since the orders are not playable (and not even hinted at being playable like the Muslims) there could be special rules as some have suggested here where prestige or something similar from which their income is derived. Or perhaps they do not function like dynasties and can recruit men and get supplies for free just as a hard-coded part of the game.

As far as gaining $$$ from church tithes etc. - well, not all militant orders were monastic - so that would not work for them.

:)
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well not all military orders were powerful :) it worked only for those orders which were issued papal bull for it
 
Hmm, I wonder if sponsoring an order would give one a bonus to piety, papal favor, and such? On the other hand, should one get tired of the mooching freeloaders and evict them (in other words the "French Treatment" to the Templars ;) ), would one get an increase in economy and perhaps a negative applied to piety, etc.?
 
This is a difficult question. Does anybdy have any numbers on their strength so one can get some view on how much they could need? I mean if they were very few in numbers some special abstracted income might be enough but if they are big enough to form armies that might not be sufficient.
 
Originally posted by Idiotboy
This is a difficult question. Does anybdy have any numbers on their strength so one can get some view on how much they could need? I mean if they were very few in numbers some special abstracted income might be enough but if they are big enough to form armies that might not be sufficient.
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Not sure about the Iberian orders. They were pretty large but not army size IIRC. The Templars, Hospitalers and Teutonic Knights (in the Levant) were not army size but were the backbone of the mounted men in most of the armies in the Holy Land. The Teutonic Knights grew a lot when they moved north but I'n not sure they got to be army size (although someone will surely tell us the numbers).

Guess it would also depend on what one would consider army size. There were lots of small battles that the Hospitalers and Templars fought on their own. However, any major campaign included men from the other parts of the Holy Land and/or from Europe.:)

EDIT: Oops forgot this one. The 230 Templars killed at Hattin plus the 60 or so killed a few months earlier at the Springs of Cresson made up the majority of the Templars in the Holy Land. So there were not very many but they (and the Hospitalers) were the elite of the battlefield.
 
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Hmmmm....

.... just give them a monthly amount which keep their size reasonable. This amount would simulate donations, bazars, taxes or what ever they got their money from. Must be plenty of historical records to make the level reasonable accurate.... Could even change over time with small events.....
 
The Templars wielded authority second only to the Pope. Their income was enormous. Not only had their knights taken a vow of poverty, and thereby turned over their estates and earthly possessions to the Order (which would be returned if the knight left the Order), but since they were exempt of all taxes and could indeed tax themselves, they became exceedingly wealthy.

So the military orders should have no problem supporting themselves. Consider how their pious ways also made them eat less etc. Also consider the phrase "to drink and swear like a Templar"... ;)
 
Originally posted by Norgesvenn
The Templars wielded authority second only to the Pope. Their income was enormous. Not only had their knights taken a vow of poverty, and thereby turned over their estates and earthly possessions to the Order (which would be returned if the knight left the Order), but since they were exempt of all taxes and could indeed tax themselves, they became exceedingly wealthy.

So the military orders should have no problem supporting themselves. Consider how their pious ways also made them eat less etc. Also consider the phrase "to drink and swear like a Templar"... ;)
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As you pointed out there were many donations of land from those who joined the orders as well as those who did not. But how will this be implemented in CK if the orders have to maintain themselves just as a dynasty has to maintain themselves? As the head of the Capetian dynasty are you going to donate an entire province to any of the orders? Will other dynasties do the same?

The other alternative of course is what has been mentioned above - since the orders are not playable perhaps they will be hard coded or event driven to receive $$$ automatically/randomly for their use in building castles and hiring mercenaries etc.:)
 
hmmm....i think sergei will find it easy to hard-code the orders you dont want players donating too much to orders and wakeup one morning and find a templar controlled europe do you ?
 
Originally posted by khurjan
hmmm....i think sergei will find it easy to hard-code the orders you dont want players donating too much to orders and wakeup one morning and find a templar controlled europe do you ?
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Sure - if I control the Templars!:D
 
Great Event possibilities with the Orders...

For example, a land which was held by an Order is taken by an Islamic prince.

Despite your "No Solicitors!" sign at the castle door, a young knight with a white tunic bearing a black cross emblem asks to stay indefinately in your realm.

a. Yes! We welcome "has beens" who just got their butt kicked from their old realm.

b. Tell the dead beat to head next door to the French lands. They'll love him there. ;)

c. Tell them to come on in for a barbecue. ;) :D
 
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