I hope that the clan leaders of the CK3 nomadic regime can be replaced, appointed, and inherited into two clans, similar to the Mongol Empire and the Turkic Khanate in history, rather than randomly generating clans like CK2
- 1
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Government:
Nomads didn't just randomly move their armies, as was mentioned above. The system for nomads is related to migration. You see, one tribe controls, let's say, a kingdom (e.g Kimek/Kimek). The tribe is dominant and is named after the tribe like (Tatars, Kipchaks, Oghuz, etc) in turn, they have subordinated other tribes with different origins mostly, like Mongols/Kirgiz etc. Within the realm, they have migrations to feed their stock/cattle. They cannot stay long in one place since cattle will eat crops and they have to move to the next place, or the cattle will die without food. Also, steppes are incredibly harsh, naturally, no trees are growing so the winds will blow hard on you to freezing, which makes these nomads stick closer to mountains like Altai during winter or other green places; otherwise, you die from cold. Also, nomads didn't just wander around; as it happens, there are always trade centers. These are places where nobility lived, and the places were also full of slavery trades. Literally currency for steppes is cattle; without cattle you die, and these provide you everything. Steppe guys made composite bows from bones and clay from cattle; they have traditional games with bones of the cattle; they literally have symbols given to these cattle for any Turkic/Mongolic folks and nature (Tengrism) and lastly it of course provides food.
Taxation:
As mentioned above, if you are for instance subordinate tribe like Cuman to Kimek Khan. After a certain period of migrations, you ought to provide your khan with cattle and warriors. However, the latter is during clashes with other tribes or perhaps to upkeep a personal army for khan. Nomads were not 'free' they had their own liege.
War:
Normally it had to do with drought or harsh weather conditions (steppes are almost a desert), so let's say your territories don't provide many crops so you are forced to go to neighboring territory in hopes of fruitful lands for your cattle. This normally causes conflicts since neighbours don't want to feed your cattle as they have their own.
The other reason is pillaging and getting slaves for trade.
Workshops:
Apart from slave trades in cities, nomads were way ahead with metallurgy, this can be added as a slot in settlements.
The end:
To put it into two words, if you integrate an already existing winter system, stocks, with migration, slavery + something about cattle, it would make it look unique.
Nomads didn't just randomly move their armies, as was mentioned above. The system for nomads is related to migration. You see, one tribe controls, let's say, a kingdom (e.g Kimek/Kimek). The tribe is dominant and is named after the tribe like (Tatars, Kipchaks, Oghuz, etc) in turn, they have subordinated other tribes with different origins mostly, like Mongols/Kirgiz etc. Within the realm, they have migrations to feed their stock/cattle. They cannot stay long in one place since cattle will eat crops and they have to move to the next place, or the cattle will die without food. Also, steppes are incredibly harsh, naturally, no trees are growing so the winds will blow hard on you to freezing, which makes these nomads stick closer to mountains like Altai during winter or other green places; otherwise, you die from cold. Also, nomads didn't just wander around; as it happens, there are always trade centers. These are places where nobility lived, and the places were also full of slavery trades. Literally currency for steppes is cattle; without cattle you die, and these provide you everything. Steppe guys made composite bows from bones and clay from cattle; they have traditional games with bones of the cattle; they literally have symbols given to these cattle for any Turkic/Mongolic folks and nature (Tengrism) and lastly it of course provides food.
Taxation:
As mentioned above, if you are for instance subordinate tribe like Cuman to Kimek Khan. After a certain period of migrations, you ought to provide your khan with cattle and warriors. However, the latter is during clashes with other tribes or perhaps to upkeep a personal army for khan. Nomads were not 'free' they had their own liege.
War:
Normally it had to do with drought or harsh weather conditions (steppes are almost a desert), so let's say your territories don't provide many crops so you are forced to go to neighboring territory in hopes of fruitful lands for your cattle. This normally causes conflicts since neighbours don't want to feed your cattle as they have their own.
The other reason is pillaging and getting slaves for trade.
Workshops:
Apart from slave trades in cities, nomads were way ahead with metallurgy, this can be added as a slot in settlements.
The end:
To put it into two words, if you integrate an already existing winter system, stocks, with migration, slavery + something about cattle, it would make it look unique.
Last edited:
- 5
- 2
In the Steppe there were periods of drought and there were harvests.
During the harvest period, the Uyghur Khaganate flourished, which was distinguished by the fact that it built many cities (over 10!) in the future Mongolia. The Uyghur Khaganate was destroyed due to drought and snowy winters, when horses could not get food from under the deep snow. The Uyghur Khaganate and its population were finished off by the invading Kyrgyz, who then did not settle in the Central Asian steppe. Long years of prosperity have taken their toll on people. That is, long-term prosperity contributes to the emergence of weak people, therefore, for nomadic countries, a well-fed life is destructive, it relaxes. The remnants of the Uighurs and related tribes fled in 3 directions to the south. Then, after a long drought and lack of people, the region began to be settled by Mongols from the banks of the Amur River in the X century. At first it was the Khitan. The Mongol tribes, unlike the Uyghurs, did not build cities, with the exception of the capital - Karakorum.
The Turkic Khaganate was a despotic state that fought numerous wars, in which the Göktürks were an ethnic minority.
The Uyghur Khaganate was a confederal state in which greater freedom could lead to unrest due to the lack of a strong central government.
The late Khazar Khaganate was an ethnic chimera ruled by Jews. After the campaign of the Russian prince Sfendoslav to Itil in 969, this Jewish elite was destroyed.
The Mongol Empire was torn apart from the very beginning by civil strife between the grandchildren of Genghis Khan.
At the time of the game in 867, the population of Mongolia changed several times. The causes are periodic great droughts and unsuccessful wars.
The first population change occurred in the 170s BC, when the Indo-European tribes were driven out - the Yuezhi from Gansu, Central and Western Mongolia due to the Xiongnu uprising.
The second change occurred in the II-V centuries AD, when the Turks drove the Rourans into Europe, where they became known as the Avars. Change of the R-speaking Turkic population to the Z-speaking Turkic population.
The third change occurred between 850-920 AD, when the Uyghurs were exterminated in Mongolia. With each population change, the level of Mongoloid characteristics increased.
The extermination of the Göktürks by the Uyghurs in 744 did not lead to a change in the racial, cultural and linguistic composition of the population of the earth where Mongolia would arise in the future, since the Gokturks were small in number, but extremely ambitious, arrogant and warlike.
During the harvest period, the Uyghur Khaganate flourished, which was distinguished by the fact that it built many cities (over 10!) in the future Mongolia. The Uyghur Khaganate was destroyed due to drought and snowy winters, when horses could not get food from under the deep snow. The Uyghur Khaganate and its population were finished off by the invading Kyrgyz, who then did not settle in the Central Asian steppe. Long years of prosperity have taken their toll on people. That is, long-term prosperity contributes to the emergence of weak people, therefore, for nomadic countries, a well-fed life is destructive, it relaxes. The remnants of the Uighurs and related tribes fled in 3 directions to the south. Then, after a long drought and lack of people, the region began to be settled by Mongols from the banks of the Amur River in the X century. At first it was the Khitan. The Mongol tribes, unlike the Uyghurs, did not build cities, with the exception of the capital - Karakorum.
The Turkic Khaganate was a despotic state that fought numerous wars, in which the Göktürks were an ethnic minority.
The Uyghur Khaganate was a confederal state in which greater freedom could lead to unrest due to the lack of a strong central government.
The late Khazar Khaganate was an ethnic chimera ruled by Jews. After the campaign of the Russian prince Sfendoslav to Itil in 969, this Jewish elite was destroyed.
The Mongol Empire was torn apart from the very beginning by civil strife between the grandchildren of Genghis Khan.
At the time of the game in 867, the population of Mongolia changed several times. The causes are periodic great droughts and unsuccessful wars.
The first population change occurred in the 170s BC, when the Indo-European tribes were driven out - the Yuezhi from Gansu, Central and Western Mongolia due to the Xiongnu uprising.
The second change occurred in the II-V centuries AD, when the Turks drove the Rourans into Europe, where they became known as the Avars. Change of the R-speaking Turkic population to the Z-speaking Turkic population.
The third change occurred between 850-920 AD, when the Uyghurs were exterminated in Mongolia. With each population change, the level of Mongoloid characteristics increased.
The extermination of the Göktürks by the Uyghurs in 744 did not lead to a change in the racial, cultural and linguistic composition of the population of the earth where Mongolia would arise in the future, since the Gokturks were small in number, but extremely ambitious, arrogant and warlike.
Last edited:
- 4
- 2
- 1
Can we avoid the 19th century pop-history junk?
This stuff belongs in crappy political memes, not history.
- 12
- 3
- 1
I mean you say that, but ck2s muslim dlc was called "sword of islam" and then followed ibn khalduns Asabiyyah with decadent muslims being replaced by more pious ones. Ck3 also has superior and inferior cultures, where tribal peoples are intended to always be poorer until they become pious christians/muslims
- 3
- 2
- 1
.png){kind=avatar}
Tribal government with the updated Horse Lords tradition does a lot of the heavy lifting right there. The big thing is that we're missing a good migration mechanic.
It would be something like Varangian Adventure, only available in the Tribal era, but with the side effect that you're causing your culture to replace the existing culture in tribal lands (or perhaps lands where the Development is less than 5). The land you leave behind, if its Development is less than 5, loses 1 Development (0 minimum) and has no controller; the first troops to arrive can claim the land for themselves and it immediately turns into their culture as Tribal land. There would need to be some mechanic for "abandoned" land.
Something like this?
It would be something like Varangian Adventure, only available in the Tribal era, but with the side effect that you're causing your culture to replace the existing culture in tribal lands (or perhaps lands where the Development is less than 5). The land you leave behind, if its Development is less than 5, loses 1 Development (0 minimum) and has no controller; the first troops to arrive can claim the land for themselves and it immediately turns into their culture as Tribal land. There would need to be some mechanic for "abandoned" land.
Something like this?
- 2
The impact of stuff like the medieval warming period and the little ice age had a big impact on the steppe. Should things like those be scripted or have climate mechanics?
- 1
They should be included, but if you make them too big an effect, you're a climate determinist historian, so a balance would have to be struck.
Increasing steppe characters boldness and ambition could be cool, but then mediveal warming period had a global effect, e.g. Basil I's expansionist campaigns may have in part be started due to secure good farmland after anatolia was becoming too hot and dry
How would you overhaul nomads?
With a swifter horse! Train your warhorse wisely.- 1
- 1
I would make all nomads take up only one county per tribe with all other steppe tiles completely empty (but available for grazing*) with extremely high attrition for feudal and tribal armies.
*One idea that I thought might be interesting is, similar to Raid stance, having to raise and move your nomadic troops into grasslands to "graze" in order to recover manpower and strength. This would incentivize them to spread out from other nomads across the steppe, while creating natural tension if the steppe becomes too crowded. Alternatively, it could be a Marshal function to assign them to an empty steppe county, but triggering an issue if you step (pun intended) into another tribe's territory.
I would make steppe tiles such that they may be "settled" by tribals, but that nomads are allowed the raid them out of existence and that is the risk you take trying to claim the steppe lands. If the tribals are able to overwhelm a particular nomadic power then that nomadic power may have to adopt tribal ways, and it might trigger another nomad from the east identifying it as either a conquest or tributary target.
*One idea that I thought might be interesting is, similar to Raid stance, having to raise and move your nomadic troops into grasslands to "graze" in order to recover manpower and strength. This would incentivize them to spread out from other nomads across the steppe, while creating natural tension if the steppe becomes too crowded. Alternatively, it could be a Marshal function to assign them to an empty steppe county, but triggering an issue if you step (pun intended) into another tribe's territory.
I would make steppe tiles such that they may be "settled" by tribals, but that nomads are allowed the raid them out of existence and that is the risk you take trying to claim the steppe lands. If the tribals are able to overwhelm a particular nomadic power then that nomadic power may have to adopt tribal ways, and it might trigger another nomad from the east identifying it as either a conquest or tributary target.
- 1
There is no evidence to suggest that Rouran is related to the Avars, and Avars did not find any Turkic or Mongolian elements, but increasingly found their Iranian language elements. In history, conversations among the Byzantine and Turkic Khanates regarding the identity of the Avars have been recorded, and it is clearly recorded that the so-called Avars were called the Var-chonnites and belonged to the Hephthalite dynasty's ethnic group. Avar is the Greek incorrect name for Abaroi in the Var-chonnite region. In fact, according to Chinese historical documents such as the Book of Wei, it is indicated that Hephthalite was a dynasty name, and their ethnic group and capital (Kunduz in the Bactria Basin, formerly known as War-Walliz in Persian before the 13th century), as well as the early recorded country names, were all Uar/Var/Hua in Chinese.
Last edited:
- 1
Da Tan (? -429), also known as "Da Dan" or "tartar", was the tenth Khan of Rouran. She Lun Ji's father is the son of Pu Hun.
He is the greatest and most famous Khan of the Rouran Khanate, so the descendants and remnants of Rouran use his name as the name of their tribe and the name of their tribal alliance
The whereabouts of Rouran are recorded in Chinese historical books such as the Book of Song. After the collapse of the Rouran Khanate, they migrated eastward to the Shiwei Union， where they became the most powerful tribe among the Shiwei Union, known as the Da Shiwei or Tatar Shiwei. In a narrow sense, the Nine Tatar tribes mentioned in the Kul tegin Service inscription, later became the enemy of the Mongols, the Tatar tribe. And don't forget that during the rise of the Uyghur khanate, a Tatar tribe and some of the Tatars who were defeated by the Uyghur khanate moved to the west of the Altay Mount together with the Kimaks in the Erqi River basin. This part is the Tartar tribe of the Cumans
Last edited:
There is only one area that the nomads lost in Crusader Kings III - the Budjak Steppe, when the dynastic crisis caused chaos in the Horde. In the 1360s, the Wallachians invaded there, creating the future Wallachia and Moldavia, but even in 1444 the process of colonization was just beginning.
Iranian and Turkic elements make up the bulk of the Avars, but the top Avars were clearly newcomers from Manchuria. The Avars spoke a R-Turkic (Oghur) language, heavily Iranianized, related to Chuvash.
The Hephthalites descend from the Lesser Yuezhi, that is, the Indo-Europeans of Mongolia, according to the Russian researcher Klyashtorny, who relies on the Chinese chronicle. Probably, under pressure from the Xiongnu, they could change their language to the R-Turkic-Oghur language, but there was clearly not enough time for assimilation, about 200 years.
Kipchaks, or Cumans in European languages, come from Xueyntuo, from the Tele, or Gaogyui, confederationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xueyantuo, according to Klyashtorny, who relies on some evidence. They and the Oghuz already spoke a single Z-Turkic (Oghuz) language. The Z-lingual Türks could not understand the R-lingual Türks without an interpreter.
- 1
Sheep & horses were more important than cattle (among the Bedouin peoples too) iirc and I think the "nomadic" nature of these cultures is generally overstated
For the purposes of ck3 I think it can be modelled by just having vertical duchies. Winter/summer pasturage would be cool but unless you have every nomadic character travel twice a year (in a game with no campaigning seasons) there wouldn't be any gameplay implications
Last edited:
- 1
By cattle is meant a group of domesticated animals, not the specific type of cow.
- 3
In human molecular biology, it has been found that the core group of the Avar people is composed of Ana elements from northeastern Asia. However, this element is present in the Turkic people who migrated westward during the same period, as well as in earlier Xiongnu tribes who migrated westward. Some Xiongnu and Turkic tribes also maintain the same human element. It is not surprising that medieval nomads completed such migration or even earlier. Then it was first recorded in China that Yan Da belonged to the Uar kingdom of Gaochetiele, but it was only later that the Chinese people began to doubt their identity and origin because Yan Da was local in Bactria, which led to the claim that Yan Da was a descendant of the YueZ
zhi/Kushan。And besides the discovery of Iranian elements from the Avars, there are no Turkic or Ogur Turkic elements, and those Turkic words only appear in the Bulgarian tribes that depend on the Avars
It is evident from the new perspectives and doubts in Chinese literature that the Yanda people and their descendants, the Avars, have become Iranianized. Moreover, in the early Middle Ages and the late classical era, there were very conservative Turkic or Hun tribes who also migrated to the grassland area in the west of Mount Taishan and kept intermarriage. So this does not necessarily mean that the Avars originated in Manchuria, which is a very narrow perspective