Hs 129 and P-47 breaks the game

[dmdelor]

1. Early game you certainly can do that. Take an early game fighter-bomber, then you get the benefit of both defensive fighter cover and offensive bombing capability.

I initially liked this idea, but thinking about it some...

It doesn't really make sense as a pre-emptive buy that you bomb with until the AT plane shows up, because bombing with it significantly limits the plane's utility as an AT plane counter. It could easily be down for refuel/rearm when the AT plane shows up, if not shot down outright because they bought a fighter. Your opponent will see it in advance and can engineer these scenarios; maybe even just countering it without spending any points by flying out the AT plane when you've recently made a bombing run.

As a reaction buy, it could be useful, but so would a fighter. (assuming you've the points on hand to buy either, which is another big issue) A fighter's often cheaper, more survivable, still useful against ground targets, and way more useful against the rest of your opponent's air force than a multirole would be. Most decks don't have a ton of plane slots to spare, and the decks that bring out AT planes often have very good air sections that will put your ability to field fighters at a premium.

Something to keep in mind, though, I guess; some of my decks do have a phase A multirole and I should be mindful that I could be buying them when I see a lone AT plane flying out at me instead of buying a fighter. Bombs can be nice, and multiroles often fly a bit slower than their fighter counterpart so they might also do a better job shooting down a slow-moving AT plane.

In general, though, I'm not sure that it's a much better option for your slots and buys than just a fighter.

Are AT guns overpowered because they can destroy an armoured push?

That's not a good analogy. At AT gun can't cover the whole map. An AT gun is readily countered by units every opponent will have in droves. An AT gun can take return fire from enemy tanks; even fighting the unit they "counter" they can fairly easily be overwhelmed if the attacker achieves local force superiority.

There's a reason "AT planes are OP" is a perennial theme on these forums and "AT guns are OP" isn't, and that's because the two units don't really have a ton in common. In most regards excepting what they're designed to shoot at, they're opposites.

 

[Person012345]

I initially liked this idea, but thinking about it some...

It doesn't really make sense as a pre-emptive buy that you bomb with until the AT plane shows up, because bombing with it significantly limits the plane's utility as an AT plane counter. It could easily be down for refuel/rearm when the AT plane shows up, if not shot down outright because they bought a fighter. Your opponent will see it in advance and can engineer these scenarios; maybe even just countering it without spending any points by flying out the AT plane when you've recently made a bombing run.

As a reaction buy, it could be useful, but so would a fighter. (assuming you've the points on hand to buy either, which is another big issue) A fighter's often cheaper, more survivable, still useful against ground targets, and way more useful against the rest of your opponent's air force than a multirole would be. Most decks don't have a ton of plane slots to spare, and the decks that bring out AT planes often have very good air sections that will put your ability to field fighters at a premium.

Something to keep in mind, though, I guess; some of my decks do have a phase A multirole and I should be mindful that I could be buying them when I see a lone AT plane flying out at me instead of buying a fighter. Bombs can be nice, and multiroles often fly a bit slower than their fighter counterpart so they might also do a better job shooting down a slow-moving AT plane.

In general, though, I'm not sure that it's a much better option for your slots and buys than just a fighter.

Well, it could, or it could also not be. Yes, if your opponent plays intelligently, he'll avoid getting his plane shot down, but the mere existence of the fighter bomber severely limits the strategic utility of the attack aircraft. You have the initiative, he has to wait until you decide to use your plane before he can use his. If you use your plane sparingly, he wont have a lot of opportunities, and one crucial thing to remember - this thread is about these things being used to counter a push, where you have the full initiative and they are on the defensive. A fighter bomber can be called in to drop a bomb in the beginning of a push and can then hang back in the sky to prevent an enemy attack aircraft coming in. If you don't take the ground quickly enough then you'll suffer some armour casualties. If your entire game can be destroyed by a single attack aircraft, I don't care what it is, you're doing it wrong. Can a fighter do the same deterrence job? Sure, but it doesn't have the flexibility of any kind of ground attack beyond gun strafing. A fighter is a valid option of course, I just prefer an early fighter bomber for the flexibility, since it's not even guaranteed that your opponent will bring out an attack aircraft early on and the mere existence of a fighter might deter that buy in the first place. A fighter bomber can support a push no matter what and with even light ground AA it should be perfectly adequate unless your enemy has way over-invested in the air war.

That's not a good analogy. At AT gun can't cover the whole map. An AT gun is readily countered by units every opponent will have in droves. An AT gun can take return fire from enemy tanks; even fighting the unit they "counter" they can fairly easily be overwhelmed if the attacker achieves local force superiority.

There's a reason "AT planes are OP" is a perennial theme on these forums and "AT guns are OP" isn't, and that's because the two units don't really have a ton in common. In most regards excepting what they're designed to shoot at, they're opposites.

The point is that they can do nasty damage to an armoured push, which is the point of this thread. If you don't have air superiority, you will suffer at the hands of aircraft. This is a fact of the game and isn't specific to any specific kind of plane. If you do, or even if it's simply contested, then any attack plane can be countered and it's damage potential much limited. Yes, they're not the same thing, but I don't see how AT planes are supposed to be these uncounterable behemoths. If you're facing a deck that packs them, prepare for that possibility. If they don't bring it out then you haven't really lost anything, especially if you take a multirole that can help support in your ground efforts.

 

[Drang]

only issue (imo) is 3rd falls hs 129 in phase A i dont think they need it.

and u can reasonably defent against it easily with pancerna and 2e DB since they have cheap fighters. after first income tick u can pick up a fighter. for guards armoured its 2 income tick. 3AD is not as well off but has best AA and is a phase C division. ju 87 G is non issue.

Luftlande has a HS-129B3 in A

17th SS has a Ju-87G in A

3rd Fallschirmjager has a HS-129B1 in A

None of them belong in A; their presence is profoundly fun-killing, like all knee-jerk air, but worse, because you can reliably gut 2-120pt tanks with them (as opposed to just stunning said tank/killing a support asset). Allied player attempts to push a localized weakness? Better have an established ADN, or else you're losing your armoured assets.

Going "well just buy a fighter lol" is prescriptive nonsense. Not all decks have reasonable fighter choices at A, and you an hardy commit to a ground offensive with your limited A-Phase income, and buy a 120-160pt fighter or fighterbomber.

Germans? Push away; at worst, you'll lose soft targets or get your tanks stunned. You certainly aren't going to lose them to your enemy's 1-2 rocket strikes, unless they get a good side-shot on you.

This is reasonable in B-C, where fighters are available to all decks at reasonable avail/veterancy, but in A, it's fun-slaughtering cancer, which disproprortinately favours one side in the early game.

 

[fufubear]

U want allied air at you should wait for ptabs and not complain about Germany's natural superiority in weapon system development.......

What natural superiority? It's not like the Germans were the only nation to put big guns on aircraft and these aircraft are generally useless in contested airspaces but in this game they are great.

 

[IS-2]

Luftlande has a HS-129B3 in A

17th SS has a Ju-87G in A

3rd Fallschirmjager has a HS-129B1 in A

None of them belong in A; their presence is profoundly fun-killing, like all knee-jerk air, but worse, because you can reliably gut 2-120pt tanks with them (as opposed to just stunning said tank/killing a support asset). Allied player attempts to push a localized weakness? Better have an established ADN, or else you're losing your armoured assets.

Going "well just buy a fighter lol" is prescriptive nonsense. Not all decks have reasonable fighter choices at A, and you an hardy commit to a ground offensive with your limited A-Phase income, and buy a 120-160pt fighter or fighterbomber.

Germans? Push away; at worst, you'll lose soft targets or get your tanks stunned. You certainly aren't going to lose them to your enemy's 1-2 rocket strikes, unless they get a good side-shot on you.

This is reasonable in B-C, where fighters are available to all decks at reasonable avail/veterancy, but in A, it's fun-slaughtering cancer, which disproprortinately favours one side in the early game.

????? u dont need ADN. every allied deck have fighter in phase A. 1 hurricane (pancerna) or spitfire (blindee) is very easy to get and will instantly punish any of those aircraft. if he wants a chance he will need to bring 30-40% of his phase A income into the panzerknacker and fighter... which in turn will die to double spitfire/double hurricane. if u plan your start with guards armoured and 3AD u can get a fighter after the 2nd minute of the match. and luftlande definitely needs HS 129 in A they are a scum deck, and they dont evn have a fighter in A to protect it XD

this is not wargame. adn is not necessary, just a few token AA at most to provide area denial capability and make a safe zone for retreating strike aircraft and fighters. fighters should be your first response always to hs 129, and should be bought before hs 129 is even deployed. once u manage to do this consistently u will have little problem with hs 129. ju-87G as i already said is a joke, very easy to ward off even with a single AA and is like a recon plane in its vulnerability to fighters.

i 90% play 3AD/pancerna/2e DB as allies........ and like i said i only have a problem with 3 fallschirmjager phase A hs 129 because of how overall well rounded and effective that deck is. but i am still able to fight it.

u want 2 know what disproportionately favour one side in the early game? my cromwell CS blowing up all useless axis infantry and airborne decks from outside their range, my M10 doing the same, my .50 cal vehicles mowing down pak 38, my vetted phase A medium tanks munching through 35 point squads as my 15 point squads soak hits the list goes on..... if i am totally honest axis airborne and infantry deck (outside of 1v1) is complete and utter garbage and all of them except 3rd falls completely rely on this AT aircraft to fight allied medium tank (that are effectively 120 point panthers) in phase A. counterplay is so predictable and EASY.....

and allies have tank killer. look at 101st airborne p47 bomber that can 1 shot jpz IV, stugs, and panzer iv with 630 kmh speed.

 

[Drang]

Precisely: the allied player needs to buy a fighter to counter the aircraft; but the axis player doesn't need to buy the aircraft. Not balanced. End.

Also, yes, Luftlande is a trash deck. You're quite happy with several first-line Commonwealth formations being trash, so I'm bemused why a genuinely second-line German formation being trash is a problem.

Also, the P-47 can kill a Panzer IV platform reliably? (citation needed).

What's it's P(K)?

 

[I WUB PUGS]

He's talking about the 101st P-47 that drops two 500 lbers and a 1000 lber, not the "AT" rocket Jug.

Sooo... a 230 plane that only one division has access to and is largely useless against heavier targets.

 

[IS-2]

Precisely: the allied player needs to buy a fighter to counter the aircraft; but the axis player doesn't need to buy the aircraft. Not balanced. End.

Also, yes, Luftlande is a trash deck. You're quite happy with several first-line Commonwealth formations being trash, so I'm bemused why a genuinely second-line German formation being trash is a problem.

Also, the P-47 can kill a Panzer IV platform reliably? (citation needed).

What's it's P(K)?

hs 129 is an aircraft that cost more than the aircraft that hard counters it .. . . . .

i have no problem with current luftlande dek.

 

[Rojan]

He's talking about the 101st P-47 that drops two 500 lbers and a 1000 lber, not the "AT" rocket Jug.

Sooo... a 230 plane that only one division has access to and is largely useless against heavier targets.

Don't try to paint that plane in a bad light. It is hands down the best ground attack plane for allies because of its speed and payload.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

Don't try to paint that plane in a bad light. It is hands down the best ground attack plane for allies because of its speed and payload.

Did I say anything that was factually incorrect?

• It costs 230 points.
• It doesn't counter Panther D's or Tigers let alone better Panthers and KT's or Jagpanthers.
• It has a pretty long reload time like all bombers now.
• It comes in one deck. So unless you've got a 101st player on your team well it's completely irrelevant. Compare that to the prevalence of ducks and Ju-87G's which are actually cheaper than the P-47 in question and can reliably kill every single piece of Allied ground kit.

Edit: Just did some checking.

7 of 9 Axis decks have access to Ju-87G or some Duck model, or some mix of the 3. If you include the Ju-88 with 2000 pounds of HE (the same load as the P-47 in question) which costs 10 more points than the P-47, that goes up to 8 of 9 decks since 12th SS gets the heavy Ju-88.

Only Panzer Lehr is denied an airborne tank killer and 12th SS has to make due with a plane JUST AS GOOD AS THE P-47. Not that either of those decks has problems killing tanks.

So yeah "allies do have a tank killer" my ass. 101st has one, and it isn't remotely as good as the cheaper Axis options.

 

[Rojan]

Did I say anything that was factually incorrect?

• It costs 230 points.
• It doesn't counter Panther D's or Tigers let alone better Panthers and KT's or Jagpanthers.
• It has a pretty long reload time like all bombers now.
• It comes in one deck. So unless you've got a 101st player on your team well it's completely irrelevant. Compare that to the prevalence of ducks and Ju-87G's which are actually cheaper than the P-47 in question and can reliably kill every single piece of Allied ground kit.

Edit: Just did some checking.

7 of 9 Axis decks have access to Ju-87G or some Duck model, or some mix of the 3. If you include the Ju-88 with 2000 pounds of HE (the same load as the P-47 in question) which costs 10 more points than the P-47, that goes up to 8 of 9 decks since 12th SS gets the heavy Ju-88.

Only Panzer Lehr is denied an airborne tank killer and 12th SS has to make due with a plane JUST AS GOOD AS THE P-47. Not that either of those decks has problems killing tanks.

So yeah "allies do have a tank killer" my ass. 101st has one, and it isn't remotely as good as the cheaper Axis options.

What? I never said they have a tank killer. It is the best ground attack plane the allies have. That is the claim I made and am sticking by.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

What? I never said they have a tank killer. It is the best ground attack plane the allies have. That is the claim I made and am sticking by.

Great.

IS-2 said "Tank Killer".

Drang responded to IS-2.

I responded to Drang.

You jumped in and decided to call the plane IS-2 was talking about "a ground attack" plane.

So you basically did a quick strawman and I bit.

How deep.







The whole conversation on this page is about cancerous tank killers in Phase A, or are you not following?

 

[Rojan]

Great.

IS-2 said "Tank Killer".

I responded to IS-2.

You jumped in and decided to call the plane IS-2 was talking about "a ground attack" plane.

So you basically did a quick strawman and I bit.

How deep.

Dude chill out. I haven't been active in this thread for like five pages. I just was saying the plane is amazing and I agree it's only shortcoming is blowing up 280 point tanks.

My two cents on the whole phase A tank killer plane thing is just preemptively buy a phase A fighter if you feel the need to protect your phase A assets. Everyone knows it's coming and it isn't some big surprise. Get it on your first or second tick of income and get ready to kill it. Even if it kills a tank it is still a huge loss for the enemy fielding that plane.

 

[Person012345]

None of them belong in A; their presence is profoundly fun-killing, like all knee-jerk air, but worse, because you can reliably gut 2-120pt tanks with them (as opposed to just stunning said tank/killing a support asset). Allied player attempts to push a localized weakness? Better have an established ADN, or else you're losing your armoured assets.

Going "well just buy a fighter lol" is prescriptive nonsense. Not all decks have reasonable fighter choices at A, and you an hardy commit to a ground offensive with your limited A-Phase income, and buy a 120-160pt fighter or fighterbomber.

Germans? Push away; at worst, you'll lose soft targets or get your tanks stunned. You certainly aren't going to lose them to your enemy's 1-2 rocket strikes, unless they get a good side-shot on you.

This is reasonable in B-C, where fighters are available to all decks at reasonable avail/veterancy, but in A, it's fun-slaughtering cancer, which disproprortinately favours one side in the early game.

"Buy a fighter to counter attack aircraft" is prescriptive nonsense? Also, you contradict yourself here. You apparent can't buy a 120pt (edit: well, for an f-b it'd be 150 or so) air support unit for your push, and stillhave enough to push, yet the enemy can commit 180 points to an air support unit and just roll over you? Make up your mind.

You don't need a DECENT fighter to deter a 129 or Ju-87. You just need something with forward facing guns.All the better if it has a secondary role. And maybe some decks have nothing that can do the job - ok, then that is a weakness that you will have to play around. If this is the case, don't deploy 2 120 point tanks at the start of the game if you happen to be up against one of those decks. Or if you do, make sure they stay hidden. Though honestly, if a low vet 129 can kill 2 tanks before it has to go off and reload for 5 hours then the Germans are lucky. At least in my experience using it, it's lucky if it can kill 1. That's why I find the Ju-87 to be a better tool for the job.

"Germans push away"? Are you being deliberately dishonest? The 17th has 1 stug in phase A in terms of armour, which certainly isn't immune to frontal death by rocket and is quite killable with an AT gun ambush (especially if panicked by rockets), and then they're flat out of phase A armour. The Luftlande gets some panzer III's, but those are also very easily killed by AT guns, and they only get 4 tank slots - taking more than one phase A command tank is a big slot investment that will hurt them later on. They get lighter tanks, but those are terrible and are easily killed even by low grade AT. They also get the StuH which is a potent weapon. Though I'm not seeing all the calls for "luftlande OP please nerf" so I'll assume it's balanced. The 3rd FsJg again get light tanks that are super easy to kill with even light AT guns. So tell me, where is all this tremendous phase A armoured pushing power for these decks coming from?

 

[Person012345]

Precisely: the allied player needs to buy a fighter to counter the aircraft; but the axis player doesn't need to buy the aircraft. Not balanced. End.

Which is why I recommend buying a fighter bomber. That way you have insurance if they don't bring it out, you still have a unit that can bring the fight to the ground units. If you don't want to, then play a different strategy than "yolo my armour at them". Also, you only need to buy the fighter after the enemy plane has been spotted, these aren't mustangs we're taking about. Even then there's nothing wrong with buying a phase A fighter bomber if you use it right.

 

[Popeck]

Good luck with dodging it on phase A with Guards.

You have polsten and can have tempest in phase A with the guard, so yes you can dodge it.

 

[Harold Alexander]

You have polsten and can have tempest in phase A with the guard, so yes you can dodge it.

 

[Popeck]

Yes you can laughing, and i was too, before i tried the polstens. One polsten cost 40 points, Hs129 b1, 180. You can bring 4 of them to counter the Hs for the same cost, the Hs can't snipe it like the crusader, and you can use it as mg too.

 

[Harold Alexander]

Yes you can laughing, and i was too, before i tried the polstens. One polsten cost 40 points, Hs129 b1, 180. You can bring 6 of them to counter the Hs for the same cost, the Hs can't snipe it like the crusader, and you can use it as mg too.

fun fact: Polsten have ammo for 30 seconds of fire. Also Polsen have very short range and very low suppression, so you need battery at least of 3 Polstens to stun plane. Short rangeand low speed mean that you almost not able to support tank push, even more to save your tanks polstens need to be very close to frontline, even closer than your tanks. So to be actually effective and to cover 50% of frontline you need: 2 batteries x 3 polstens with supply trucks and also with commander for better effect. That's = 120 + 120 + 50 + 30 + 30 = 350 pts of A income to stop HS, sounds not very effective to stun 170 pts plane. also you need tempest to shut down HS, another 160 pts.

 

[core.-]

Triple Vet AA loves to chow on planes... but lets be fair, ain't too much of that to go around. Personally, remove the HS129s, JU 87s and all heavy bombers/napalm/nebelwerfers from A.