Human USA at game start poll

[unmerged(74599)]

Its an old debate but here we go anyway.

I have set up a poll for MP players at Lord Ederon's about the issue of how games end with human USA at start, both in the 38 and 36 GC.

There are two polls, one for Human USA at start (USA poll) , and one for No Human USA at start .

Thanks!

 

[son of liberty]

I vote for a ROLEPLAYED USA in the 36 and 38 scenarios.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

I hear you there, but then not everyone can be counted on doing so. In the last MEM game I played as USA I set up a cozy deal with Japan based on a 1942 war entry date. Unfortunately neither of us realized that the event system was structured so that if Japan conquered Australia USA basicly had to enter the war be event.

I would have fought the Pacific Campaign to conclusion, but I was preassured into providing an army for the war in Europe by my team mates. Can't let the side down can we?

 

[son of liberty]

Again it comes to roleplaying. FDR went against the wishes of the american people with his europe first policy. Most people wanted japan dealt with first. Then again, the way for usa to be "kept in check" is to actually fight both theaters at the same time. If the USA concentrates it's entire force on only one theater, then yes the war will end too quickly. If the game I played with anders and company had panned out, I was going to do just that. 2 desperate struggles, instead of one easy one.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

No it was forced. Axis gang-bang of SU made it necessary for Allies to invade Europe. It was either that or lose.

 

[son of liberty]

No it was forced. Axis gang-bang of SU made it necessary for Allies to invade Europe. It was either that or lose.

Or, it could have been a long desperate struggle on 2 fronts, as the usa desperately tries to hang on in the pacific while supporting england in africa.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

My issue was containing Japan. We did this for long enough for me to create an army to invade Europe. It's relatively simple to contain Japan using airpower and well garrisoned Islands. Each Island takes at least three months to reduce, even when Japan has sea superiority. It was quite desperate at times.

In the Vanilla game, its easy for Japan both to gangbang SU and invade all of Asia and the Pacific, on multiple fronts because it has the Chinese puppet.

And again, it was forced otherwise we would have lost.

 

[son of liberty]

Well, in your mod a gang bang like that should not be an issue. Same thing with aussie rules. So I would say that part is covered.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

And the thing is that it is possible to actually emulate the Aussie USA war entry date by modifying the USA interventionism slider, so that they can not enter the war until they have had sufficient provocation, tuned to events in the game.

So for example, USA gets positive slider moves if Spain is allied by Axis or attacked by Axis or Gibraltar falls, or if Axis attacks Turkey or Suez falls, or Japan invades Netherlands before it is attacked by Germany and it is still not an Allied country. Nor does the USA get positive interventionism slider moves if USSR is belligerent, or if it is allied with Brazil (in fact it gets a negative slider move if this is the case).

Furthermore, the system accounts for a-historical reactions that are more in keeping with the reality, and proper game-play balance. So for example, if SU "Brings Socialism" to Finland, Sweden does not become pro-Allied, as it is in Vanilla, but pro-Axis.

The idea is rather than having "house rules" that are inevitably points of in-game arguement, the "rules" are built into the game system itself, just like the rules that P-Dox inserted in the game, such as the "Anchlaus" rule, which is still a rule. You see all the events are actually rules that direct the action in the game.

The primary reason it was designed with no Human USA was because with a nerfed Japan, and a Human USA, USA can simply Zerg build units from day one, and do gamey stuff like make Guam impenetrable, and Phillipines impossible. In fact the USA should start the war back on its heals, and become a force after that.

I tuned the ai so that it builds sufficient force to defend, but not to zerg defend or even go on the offensive against the more historically realistic capacity of Japan, without a China puppet.

 

[son of liberty]

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

I am not sure why it is a disagreement. There are numerous ways to set up this game. I identified some problems, and attempted to come up with some solutions. I am sure there would be ways of making it possible for Axis to last beyond 1942 with human USA at start. You would just have to design the game differently.

I appreciate all the systems. Really there is no "better" system, just different ones. I am really just explaining why I did what I did.

First of all the parameter I set was that the fewer rules the better, and the game flow should come from the game programing. Second the game should has the potential to be a long game, which roughly emulates the historical trajectory of the war. Third the game should cause the players to make decisions based on similar strategic equations that confronted the powers during the war.

I think I have achieved much of this with the new version of the mod.

 

[son of liberty]

I think that at the very least, you should have a "trading with the enemy" style event for the usa and the fascists.
However, as I have noted before, my biggest concern is ai research. The ai research is crap. Why research early hospital as usa? Your manpower pool is huge. You dont need hospital techs until much later, and you can get the bp from uk(who does need hospital tech, badly).
Here is an idea. It is even fair. Let the game run "hands off" until the year you want all majors to be human. That would prevent all gaminess.

 

[Cyprian]

I think that at the very least, you should have a "trading with the enemy" style event for the usa and the fascists.
However, as I have noted before, my biggest concern is ai research. The ai research is crap. Why research early hospital as usa? Your manpower pool is huge. You dont need hospital techs until much later, and you can get the bp from uk(who does need hospital tech, badly).
Here is an idea. It is even fair. Let the game run "hands off" until the year you want all majors to be human. That would prevent all gaminess.

I like to play the US but agree it can get very powerful. However that was true to life. In WWII the US outproduced all other major belligerents(Germany, Japan, UK--and all its lands, France, Italy, Russia)combined in steel despite coming into the war over 2 years after it started. Those are crazy numbers!! Had the war continued the US would have put to sea in 1946 20(yes 20) mainline aircraft carriers. So I guess the way to really have the US played(from 36') is by someone who is open to other ideas, or to have the axis beat the heck out of everyone before the US gets in.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

I think that at the very least, you should have a "trading with the enemy" style event for the usa and the fascists.
However, as I have noted before, my biggest concern is ai research. The ai research is crap. Why research early hospital as usa? Your manpower pool is huge. You dont need hospital techs until much later, and you can get the bp from uk(who does need hospital tech, badly).
Here is an idea. It is even fair. Let the game run "hands off" until the year you want all majors to be human. That would prevent all gaminess.

I totally agree on the AI research and build. I changed it so that it researches naval doctrines, and should be reasearching or have researched Deep Sea Operations Doctrine, by mid 1940, so it is two steps above what the vanilla ai is researching. It also is tuned to build a substantial number of garrisons for island defence prior to war, and also to focus on fighter producution as much as interceptor production, and of course I put in a line of CV's so it will have at least six by war, possibly more.

I ran it through about a dozen times and it is a far superior ai build than vanilla for an MP game.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

My issue was containing Japan. We did this for long enough for me to create an army to invade Europe. It's relatively simple to contain Japan using airpower and well garrisoned Islands. Each Island takes at least three months to reduce, even when Japan has sea superiority. It was quite desperate at times.

In the Vanilla game, its easy for Japan both to gangbang SU and invade all of Asia and the Pacific, on multiple fronts because it has the Chinese puppet.

And again, it was forced otherwise we would have lost.

in hindsight we would have not lost even if you chose to keep containing japan.
1) Germanys summer offensive went down the drain
2) Japan was wasting units guarding for an attack on some of its turf that could not be reached as it had sea and air sup
3) Italy was in shambles and never picked up
4) It was the first time we played with the new move IC events which forced me to defend right at the start and cost me/Russia/ way more than usual.
5) Overall if Italy hadnt messed up as it did landing there would have been much harder.

I would say Russias pleas were in line with RL .

 

[unmerged(74599)]

I never thought we were going to lose. I thought SU might crumble in 41, but not after you made it too winter. It was still "best play."

As for the IC events, I have a similar system that you might want to look at. It moves industry in groups, and with a little adjustment might work for you. Basicly USSR is insured that it well get a large portion of their industry out, but also encourages forward defence. But, in defence of Durruti's system, I will say you did lose much industry and were still able to pull it together after a hair-raising 41.

41 should be hair-raising for SU I think.

I should also note that I thought the MEM set up for USA is very well suited to the MEM system, and a very succesful modding, IMO. Very smooth and realistic, but not without serious challenges.

 

[aphrochine]

I couldnt vote.

WPO's last game saw some weirdness with the USA and has really changed my opinion about the US and their power to bring war.


Human US as '36 can be (if well played) can be a huge imbalance to the game and in our experience nearly always ends the game prior '42. Whether playing a 2 front war or not. If the Alliance has a really good UK and a good US, early success is guaranteed. We have moved away from '36 starts and are trying our hand at '38 starts.


The issue I have with the US is its IC. In RL, the US had to ramp up its production. In the game, the US has full IC from day one it goes to war and begins by adding massive serials of fairly modern tech units (given it has great tech teams and 5 slots from game start). My thoughts here is to set the US's base IC extremely low, maybe even low enough to only afford 4 tech slots. The peace time modifer would need to be greatly reduced or removed. Then through event, add IC to provinces. The IC gain would be phased over 2 years. US production really did not get into any real swing until '43, and its effects where not fully felt and major offensives realised until '44. The US IC should reflect this. This is the only way to guarantee the Allies do not roll the Axis by '42.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

Could not vote. SOL had this problem at one point. Then he was could for some reason. Try again!

I ended up basicly saying this on another thread:

Making USA ai at start makes the USA essentially a neutral power until 1940, and this is biggest advantage of having the USA played by the AI, until the point in time when it historically began to actively support the Allies against the Axis.

USA will not be able to use its power, say through mass supplying the Allied powers or the Soviet Union in an attempt to end the game prematurely, nor will it be preventing Japan and Germany from trading for essential raw materials they need to prosecute the war, based on the foreknowledge that it will be engaged in a war with Axis sometime in 41/42. Nor can it create fortress Guam, nor can it zerg defend Phillipines. Nor will it be making itself Paternal Autocrat so that the US player can entertain themselves with conquering South America in the run up to the war.

I'd rather this than having to set up a list of rules the length of my forearm to properly guide the US in its behaviour in the run-up to the war.