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Demetrios

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Apr 22, 2001
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IU was going to post this to the 1520 thread, because I knew that Louis/Lajos/Ludvik was king of both Hungary and Bohemia in 1520 (six years later both kingdoms were inherited by his brother-in-law Ferdinand of Austria). But then, looking things up, I found out that both had been united under the same king since 1490. Should we do something to indicate this state of affairs in the IGC?
 
Maybe we should reverse things then. Make Bohemia-Hungary a major and have them add Austria on later. In a way, this is actually what happened; Ferdinand von Habsburg inherited Hungary and Bohemia in 1526 upon the death of his brother-in-law Louis II at the battle of Mohacs against the Turks. Later, when his brother Karl V abdicated, he inherited Austria as his part of the split of the Habsburg lands. And after all, for a long time Prague was as important, if not more important, than Vienna in the Habsburg lands. Moreover, Bohemia nd Hungary were kingdoms, while Austria was merely a grand duchy (Maria Theresia was refered to as the Queen of Hungary, not the Archduchess of Austria, during the War of the Austrian Succession).
 
As the kings of Bohemia and Hungary were almost always Habsburgs after 1526, It wouldn't make much difference.

Actually, the I was pondering the whole situation in Bohemia and Hungary in EU last night, and I realized that the game really needs some reworking in this area. Here are the problems and my suggestions on what could be done:

1. As I stated before, from 1490 to 1526 (and even after, although the throne of Hungary was in dispute after the Turkish invasion), Bohemia and Hungary were united under the same king. This can be simulated in the game in three ways: a) Bohemia and Hungary are united. As Vladislas/Ulaszlo was king of Bohemia first (from 1471), the game should simulate that Bohemia had recently annexed Hungary. Thus the only national provinces for Bohemia-Hungary should be on the Bohemian territories, and Hungary should have residual nationalism, as any nation conquered/annexed two years previously would have (which is quite historically accurate; Ulaszlo faced continual dissatisfaction among the nobles who elected him, and there was a major peasant revolt in 1514), and may break free at a later time under its own kings (as it did to a point after 1526). b) Bohemia and Hungary are separate, but Hungary is Bohemia's vassal. This option would make it easier for Austria to eventually annex either or both of these countries, and would also allow Hungary to become completely independent later (as part of it did after 1526 under the Princes of Transylvania). c) Bohemia and Hungary are separate, and only allied to each other hand have a mutual royal marriage. An OK idea, but I don't think it would do justice to the situation.

2. Vladislas was a member of Poland's royal family; in fact, he was the placed upon the throne of Bohemia by his father Kazimierz IV, who died in 1492. Thus the thrones of Bohemia and Poland were closely allied; this should be indicated in the game by at least a royal marriage and quite possibly as an alliance.

3. Bohemia's religious situation was unique in Europe in 1492. Early in the 1400s, the Bohemian Jan Hus preached the Catholic Church was in need of reform, made proposals about said reforms (many of which anticipated later Protestant ideas), and was burned at the stake in 1415 for his troubles. However, his ideas caught on in Bohemia, and for all intents and purposes Bohemia was a Protestant state after 1415. Later Catholic kings would attempt to bring the Bohemians back into line with Rome, but the best that could ever be done (until the Counter-Reformation, that is) were temporary compromises. Bohemia even elected a Hussite king, George Podiebrad, in defiance of the Catholics; he died only in 1471. Thus, in my opinion, the national provinces of Bohemia (excepting Silesia) should start the game as Protestant. Of course, no ruler at the beginning of the game can be tolerant of Protestants, meaning that Bohemia will be difficult to rule effectively. This too reflects history; Bohemia was notoriously hard to manage and was the scene of many notable revolts, most due to Catholic rulers trying to suppress the Hussite movement.
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
IU was going to post this to the 1520 thread, because I knew that Louis/Lajos/Ludvik was king of both Hungary and Bohemia in 1520 (six years later both kingdoms were inherited by his brother-in-law Ferdinand of Austria). But then, looking things up, I found out that both had been united under the same king since 1490. Should we do something to indicate this state of affairs in the IGC?

I'vebeen pointing this out a few times before without getting any response. I'm glad someone else brought it up.
Most people tend to be concerned with Austria NOT always getting Hungary & Bohemia easily, which they think is very unhistroical.
I would say that the probablility in 1492 that Austria should rise to Power and swallow BOH & HUN is even less likely then BOH & HUN swallowing Austria. Though noone have thus far complained about this reverse event never happening. Guess it would upset their view of the Europena scene a bit too much I guess =).
 
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Since the game really hasn't a good way of representing dual kingdoms I would suggest b or c. Option a however would clearly be wrong and remove a lot of the complexity in the region...

Originally posted by Demetrios 2. Vladislas was a member of Poland's royal family; in fact, he was the placed upon the throne of Bohemia by his father Kazimierz IV, who died in 1492. Thus the thrones of Bohemia and Poland were closely allied; this should be indicated in the game by at least a royal marriage and quite possibly as an alliance.


Don't leave out Hungary from this mix. They where also VERY closely related to Poland.
In fact the Hungarian king Lajos/Louis I/Ludwik in 1370 became the king also of Poland (his mother was Polish ...).

Since he died without any male heirs his two daughters inheritance split up the country again and respectively they married Jagiello (from Lituania) and Sigismund/Zsigmond/Zikmund (from Luxemburg).
Sigismund, King of Hungary, btw also became king of Bohemia in 1419 ...

Anyway, the close connections between HUN, BOH, POL & HAB is very ill represented in the game except for predestined wish for HAB to take over HUN & BOH. In reality, this was much more of a fluke then anything else and definitly NOT a given thing in 1492.

Thus, in my opinion, the national provinces of Bohemia (excepting Silesia) should start the game as Protestant.

Due to game engine limitations no state can effectivly be protetstant before the reformation.
 
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I have been bothered by this a lot myself, but I think in option B, with Hungary as a Bohemian vassal is the first viable solution I have heard. The biggest problem in all of this is that Austria's eventual leading role has the appearance of being a total stroke of luck. Though I would never count out the Habsburg dynasty's careful planning in all this.
 
Originally posted by Demetrios 2. Vladislas was a member of Poland's royal family; in fact, he was the placed upon the throne of Bohemia by his father Kazimierz IV, who died in 1492. Thus the thrones of Bohemia and Poland were closely allied; this should be indicated in the game by at least a royal marriage and quite possibly as an alliance.
Don't leave out Hungary from this mix. They where also VERY closely related to Poland.
Anyway, the close connections between HUN, BOH, POL & HAB is very ill represented in the game except for predestined wish for HAB to take over HUN & BOH. In reality, this was much more of a fluke then anything else and definitly NOT a given thing in 1492.
[/B]

In the 1520 IGC start scenario, POL, HUN, BOH all have royal marriages with each other. HAB has them with HUN, BOH. In the majority of my games from there I have seen Hungary attacked by Turkey, and then Austria pick up the pieces as was historical. The HAB taking over HUN, BOH is still not a given thing in the 1520 start, but it is much less of a fluke in that time frame.
I do agree that adding marriages between POL, HUN, BOH in 1492 is a good idea.
 
Originally posted by John Meixner
I have been bothered by this a lot myself, but I think in option B, with Hungary as a Bohemian vassal is the first viable solution I have heard. The biggest problem in all of this is that Austria's eventual leading role has the appearance of being a total stroke of luck. Though I would never count out the Habsburg dynasty's careful planning in all this.

Obviously there was carefull planing by the Habsburgs behind the scences. But so was there in every other noble family of the time. The Habsburgs just happend to have the right guys die at the right time for them to inherit things =).

IMO what is really missing is a few special inheritance events for some of the early HAB monarchs. That way you could give the posibility of the Austrian empire to become strong in the same manner it did in reality while not having to mess up the entire dipolmatic relations/power arena in the area.

Of course, Transylvania should probably be thrown in there to further mess up the area diplomatically. I think it would really make for a better representation of how it looked like then how it is currently implemented.
 
Inheritance evens/dynastic model would inderdeed be great.

If u make Hungary a vassal of Bohemia in the game and Bohemia a vassal of and in alliance with Austria then maybe Austria diplo annexes Bohemia soon which frees up Hungary, unallied as its a vassal and its overlord is caught up, prolly eaten up a bit bu Turkey already, to be diplo annexed by Austria.

Or vice versa with Bohemia a vassal of Hungary. U lot should know the situation better than me :D

This would make the initial connection quite big but still give Austria a chance to get things going.
 
Originally posted by Huszics

Due to game engine limitations no state can effectivly be protetstant before the reformation.

Sigh. It was a good idea. Maybe Bohemia should suffer from 3% nationalist revolt risk to simulate the religious differences. This revolt risk should last until the time the Reformation actually rolls around and the religious differences can actually be portrayed in the game.
 
Originally posted by Huszics

Don't leave out Hungary from this mix. They where also VERY closely related to Poland.
In fact the Hungarian king Lajos/Louis I/Ludwik in 1370 became the king also of Poland (his mother was Polish ...).

Since he died without any male heirs his two daughters inheritance split up the country again and respectively they married Jagiello (from Lituania) and Sigismund/Zsigmond/Zikmund (from Luxemburg).
Sigismund, King of Hungary, btw also became king of Bohemia in 1419 ...

Anyway, the close connections between HUN, BOH, POL & HAB is very ill represented in the game except for predestined wish for HAB to take over HUN & BOH. In reality, this was much more of a fluke then anything else and definitly NOT a given thing in 1492.

I wasn't ignoring the Hungarian-Polish connection; as Vladislas/Ulaszlo was king of Boehmia before he was king of Hungary, I merely said Bohemia for the sake of brevity. He certainly didn't cease to be a Polish prince simply because he was elected to the throne of Hungary!

By the way, Sigismund may have inherited Bohemia in 1419, but the Hussites wouldn't let him into the kingdom. It wasn't until 1436, when he reached an uneasy accomodation with the Hussites, that he was allowed to enter Bohemia and be crowned king. Yet another example of why Bohemia was so hard to govern in this time period...
 
Originally posted by Demetrios


I wasn't ignoring the Hungarian-Polish connection;

Sorry, my intention was not contradict you but rather to bring more pieces of the situation into the light for the backgrond setting of the area.
The aim beeing to make it more visable for people how complex the situation in this area was in reality, though basicly non if it appears in the game (which seems extreemly streamlined for an Habsburgian overtake of all soruonding nations).