Hybridisation of Cultures

[Nortrix]

And what is English language?
AngloSaxon mixed with Norse as a foundation, then the rest a 50/50 French/ Latin mix.
Being such a mix, makes it a ideal second language for most indo european languages.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

I mean the game already tracks the culture of every pop it's one of their base attributes

Fugg meant language

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

That explains everything...

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Yeah so the 1800s on your map only show basically the planted Scotish pops in Ulster speaking English. The massive decline we see in Irish speaking is after the famine. The only difference between the people before and after is the language that was spoken culturally they did not change.

I don't think Ulster used to be so big that it stretch from Antrim to Wexford and Kilkenny

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For someone quoting "cold hard logic" you haven't actually described how Irish people or Gaels assimilated into English culture whatsoever.

Having a tiny minority speak irish, and having most education and the state be in english, shows assimilation and appropriation of parts of english culture, whilst not becoming english themselves

And infact I don't think any historian would ever claim that either.

A historian designing the game would certainly want an irish-gael, anglo-irish, old english, and new english culture for ireland and its pops

So this is some phenomenon that you yourself have made up and yes Gaels/Irish people do take offence to people trying to undermine our culture especially with someone with a British ancestry.

Not to mention am I culturally different from my Father? I can speak both English and Irish/Gaeilge but he can only speak English and we both have 100% Gaelic ancestry. You would say culturally we are different, and we are meant to be taking you seriously?

In a generation its not going to change that much, in 800 years itll change a good chunk

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"AS A BRIT" just lmao

you have the time to make your own memes, but not the time to read irish history and see how its people changed across time?

 

[livebythecreed77]

I don't think Ulster used to be so big that it stretch from Antrim to Wexford and Kilkenny

Yeah I know it doesn't, I was specifically speaking about the English spoken in Ulster. And I do believe there were English plantations of those areas down south as well but not as heavily as Ulster.

Having a tiny minority speak irish, and having most education and the state be in english, shows assimilation and appropriation of parts of english culture, whilst not becoming english themselves

A historian designing the game would certainly want an irish-gael, anglo-irish, old english, and new english culture for ireland and its pops

Whilst not quoting any historian stating there was change in the culture other than speaking English you are just assuming you are right? Irish music has barely changed over time neither has our sports, (handball, roadball, football and hurling) dancing, way of life/values being a much more community driven rather than individualistic. Up until very recently (last 15 years) an extremely Catholic and religious society as a whole part of our identity which never changed. Our food that we would have ate and made (only really changed with the introduction of the potatoe and that doesn't make us more culturallyEnglish) The clothing that was made or even the alcohol brewed did not change. Largely speaking there was little change culturally. But yet here you are speaking as if you are right.

you have the time to make your own memes, but not the time to read irish history and see how its people changed across time?

I know my history pretty well but you have just made vague statements on how there was just a change or that there has to be change or something without actually quantifying it. And out of the other aspects of culture that I listed above you clearly are talking out of your ass and actually have not a clue what you are talking about.

 

[Inzano]

If English only began to spread in Ireland after 1800, it makes no sense to have another Irish culture available, one that speaks English with characteristics of "Old Irish" culture. Hybrid cultures should only be available where the native culture and the colonial culture are very different in development. As far as I know, the Irish were no less developed than the English culture.

So, for example, the Aztecs could not be hybridized by the Spanish, but only assimilated, and later, as the system allows, separate the culture with the newly formed state (Mexico). For example, a tribe living at a lower level of civilization could be hybridized without any problems, for example in the area of Brazil. But I always wonder how to do this, because the localization of names is tied to the language, which means that the language would also have to hybridize.

 

[P.Quirinius]

Yeah so the 1800s on your map only show basically the planted Scotish pops in Ulster speaking English. The massive decline we see in Irish speaking is after the famine. The only difference between the people before and after is the language that was spoken culturally they did not change.

For someone quoting "cold hard logic" you haven't actually described how Irish people or Gaels assimilated into English culture whatsoever. And infact I don't think any historian would ever claim that either. So this is some phenomenon that you yourself have made up and yes Gaels/Irish people do take offence to people trying to undermine our culture especially with someone with a British ancestry.

Not to mention am I culturally different from my Father? I can speak both English and Irish/Gaeilge but he can only speak English and we both have 100% Gaelic ancestry. You would say culturally we are different, and we are meant to be taking you seriously?



View attachment 1337512

"AS A BRIT" just lmao

The British ruled Ireland for much of the game’s time frame so it is up to Brits to decide what culture is there. Irish peasants who did not even manage to unify Ireland have no say in this. (Just joking to be clear)

 

[livebythecreed77]

The British ruled Ireland for much of the game’s time frame so it is up to Brits to decide what culture is there. Irish peasants who did not even manage to unify Ireland have no say in this. (Just joking to be clear)

We were close, too close

 

[DiabloDeVille]

If English only began to spread in Ireland after 1800, it makes no sense to have another Irish culture available, one that speaks English with characteristics of "Old Irish" culture.

But the language had spread widely before 1800, thats how it could hug so much of the eastern seaboard in 1800. Its not like settlement, plantation, assimilation, and hybridisation happened only after 1800

Hybrid cultures should only be available where the native culture and the colonial culture are very different in development. As far as I know, the Irish were no less developed than the English culture.

You are aware of the vast differences in the level of urbanism between England and Ireland at game start right? Of how decentralised Ireland was at the time, with a clan like system for much of ireland, rather than feudal governance?

So, for example, the Aztecs could not be hybridized by the Spanish, but only assimilated, and later, as the system allows, separate the culture with the newly formed state (Mexico). For example, a tribe living at a lower level of civilization could be hybridized without any problems, for example in the area of Brazil. But I always wonder how to do this, because the localization of names is tied to the language, which means that the language would also have to hybridize.

Why would you want the aztecs to remain a fully seperate culture from the mid 1500s to the early 1800s? Given much had assimilated into a mestizo population?

We were close, too close

View attachment 1337654View attachment 1337655

O'Neil will always be an ironic character to me, with how he was educated to advance English interests, only to rebel, but then having lost his rebellion, being the cause for the plantation of Northern Ireland.

Yeah I know it doesn't, I was specifically speaking about the English spoken in Ulster. And I do believe there were English plantations of those areas down south as well but not as heavily as Ulster.

No you said

Yeah so the 1800s on your map only show basically the planted Scotish pops in Ulster speaking English. The massive decline we see in Irish speaking is after the famine. The only difference between the people before and after is the language that was spoken culturally they did not change.

Which is you talking about Irish vs English speaking as a whole

Whilst not quoting any historian stating there was change in the culture other than speaking English you are just assuming you are right?

I mean an irish person saying almost all aspects of the modern irish state being in english certainly points to a change no? Its clearly broken from the old irish culture which wouldnt let english dominate all aspects of governance sans the name for the PM

Irish music has barely changed over time neither has our sports, (handball, roadball, football and hurling)

Football? Really dude?

dancing, way of life/values being a much more community driven rather than individualistic

Leaving for the new world en masse as the rest of the isles did is more individualistic than community driven, given you leave behind your community to their fate

. Up until very recently (last 15 years) an extremely Catholic and religious society as a whole part of our identity which never changed. Our food that we would have ate and made (only really changed with the introduction of the potatoe and that doesn't make us more culturallyEnglish) The clothing that was made or even the alcohol brewed did not change

Whiskey certainly changed over the time period, with English advancements in distillation, with Rum introduced too. A shift away from a beef diet as more of the country was drained and brought under cultivation too

. Largely speaking there was little change culturally. But yet here you are speaking as if you are right.



I know my history pretty well but you have just made vague statements on how there was just a change or that there has to be change or something without actually quantifying it. And out of the other aspects of culture that I listed above you clearly are talking out of your ass and actually have not a clue what you are talking about.

And this aspect of modern day ireland, 100 years after independence? Which has its seeds in the game period?

And those Irish-speaking areas are Gaeltacht, places where Gaelic is the only language on road signs (since 2005) and where education is done through Gaelic. English tends to dominate because English is a lingua franca, making it useful for just about every industry, most Irish people who left the island (we were still net emigration for decades after independence) tended to emigrate to Britain, America, Canada and Australia where English was spoken (and in most cases the only official language), and crucially, most of the Gaeltacht are rural, meaning the population is older (as young people are more likely to migrate, there's no third-level institution on the level of the English-medium ones for example and work is harder to find in local communities) and generally on the decline.

There's also the issue of English-medium schools not teaching enough Gaelic for people to converse in it regularly (we pretty much didn't learn Gaelic until 4th or 5th Class in my primary school, and although my secondary school had a Gaelcholáiste (a Gaelic-medium secondary school) attached to it, we were mixed in 5th and 6th Year, meaning that they only did Gaelic and a couple of option subjects through Gaelic in the classroom for their Leaving Certificate (and even then, they could still choose to do the Leaving Cert through English, but the incentive for GC students to do the exams through Irish is getting a portion of the marks they missed - I can't remember the exact figures (I remember my Maths teacher explaining it to a GC student who sat behind me) but if you got 60% right, you'd be entitled to a portion of the 40% you got wrong as an incentive to do the exam through Gaelic).

A summary/tldr: English is a lingua franca, most people who leave/left went to English-speaking countries, a lot of the infrastructure aimed at preserving the language (Irish-language colleges - which are more like summer camps than actual universities, as they usually last three weeks during the summer and mainly involve immersing attendees in the language through sport, music and other activities) are mainly rural - though more Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáistí are being opened across the country since 2000 (iirc the Gaelcholáiste attached to the secondary school I attended opened in 2001). Third-level education institutions are mostly done through English, and the ones that are done through Gaelic mostly offer degrees relating to the language (i.e. diplomas in Gaelic, translation, language studies, communications, a few media and arts-related ones) while the English-language ones offer degrees for everything (i.e. medicine, business).

 

[Vlad123]

The word "assimilation" might be causing some consternation here. Obviously the change in first language from gaelic to English didn't turn Irish people into English people on all cultural levels but it's also pretty clear that a meaningful change occured as a result of a long period of colonial rule imposing English as the language of administration and education. And again while it would be foolish to say that means Irish people are English, the shared language makes cultural blending and exchange much more common in both directions.

Does EU5 have the ability to track a pop's language separately from their culture? Historically getting everyone to speak the same language was much more achievable than actually forcibly changing their cultural identity and was probably more relevant to the ease of administering a group of people. It was also a pretty critical prerequisite for cases of assimilation that did occur, so I can see how tracking language separately from culture might be a very useful tool.

OK,OK! Why is ok the Borg assimilation and not is ok the cultural assimilation! Come on guys! Assimilated to borg withouth your consent is ok? And culturally by economic incentives etc,no?

 

[Knarraldin]

OK,OK! Why is ok the Borg assimilation and not is ok the cultural assimilation! Come on guys! Assimilated to borg withouth your consent is ok? And culturally by economic incentives etc,no?

I don't think anybody is particularly positive towards Borg assimilation save the Borg themselves, given the massive wars of self preservation against them in Star Trek.

 

[strattonthebard]

I wasn't necessarily expecting this to come up in this thread but I am willing to take a stand and say that I think the Borg's process of biomechanical assimilation is unethical

 

[Inzano]

You are aware of the vast differences in the level of urbanism between England and Ireland at game start right? Of how decentralised Ireland was at the time, with a clan like system for much of ireland, rather than feudal governance?

Urbanization is not a measure of the level of culture, it does not mean that if you have a city with 5,000 inhabitants and 50,000, the buildings are built differently, have different equipment, etc.

The development of culture is reflected in the way buildings are constructed, the method of obtaining food (hunting, gathering, herding, etc.), the use of materials for tools, the level of literary development, etc. And there wasn't a big gap between the Irish and the English in these areas.

The way of ruling also does not define you as having a more developed culture. You can have a monarchy and the culture is more developed than the neighboring republic. For example, the Principality of Bavaria was a hereditary monarchy, like the Principality of Carantania was an electoral monarchy. According to modern logic, I would say that Carantania had a more developed culture, but realistically, both cultures were on the same level.

Why would you want the aztecs to remain a fully seperate culture from the mid 1500s to the early 1800s? Given much had assimilated into a mestizo population?

Aztec culture (Nahuatl) was at the same level of development as European, in some respects even more (aqueducts, sewage, etc.), in some less (they did not have cannons, guns, etc.). Their culture has even survived to this day (it has approx. 2.6 million members), while the rest were assimilated into Mexican culture.

Creole languages are actually an expression of the mixing of cultures between less developed and more developed cultures, which also leads to a different identity, and these mostly appeared in tribes of lower civilization development.

Mestizo is not a culture, but a term for mixtures between Spaniards and other American and Austronesian natives, who are of different cultures.

 

[Knarraldin]

I wasn't necessarily expecting this to come up in this thread but I am willing to take a stand and say that I think the Borg's process of biomechanical assimilation is unethical

If I'm honest, I wasn't really expecting it either, but I couldn't exactly leave such a question unanswered

 

[livebythecreed77]

But the language had spread widely before 1800, thats how it could hug so much of the eastern seaboard in 1800. Its not like settlement, plantation, assimilation, and hybridisation happened only after 1800

In a generation its not going to change that much, in 800 years itll change a good chunk

Yeah so the vast majority of people who lived in Ireland didnt speak English and this only changed in a generation so using your own "cold hard logic" this is a nonsense new culture needed

O'Neil will always be an ironic character to me, with how he was educated to advance English interests, only to rebel, but then having lost his rebellion, being the cause for the plantation of Northern Ireland.

Yeah wow he was educated in England and then did his best to free Ireland from English control ultimately lost because when he wiped out the English army in Ireland the English then sent 14,000 more troops while the help he received was 2000 troops from Spain in a isolated town in Cork away from the power base of O'Neill and O'Donell. Thanks Spain.

No you said

Which is you talking about Irish vs English speaking as a whole

I mean an irish person saying almost all aspects of the modern irish state being in english certainly points to a change no? Its clearly broken from the old irish culture which wouldnt let english dominate all aspects of governance sans the name for the PM

Again this just shows your ignorance and that you are so full of shit your eyes are brown, the parliament is called Dáil Éireann the representatives are called Teachta Dála, With Ceann Comhairle being the speaker if you will. The President being Uachtarán na hÉireann. You are right we don't to this day have the Tainstry system or Ard-Rí therefore its a assimilated english culture or something

Football? Really dude?

Yeah again how ignorant you are speaking on my culture of course, Gaelic football or as most people here refer to it football is a unique sport to Ireland among the others listed. Funny that with all of these things that we retain to this day unlike some cultures like having unique sports, dancing, music that has barely changed you somehow believe that culturally we are different?

Leaving for the new world en masse as the rest of the isles did is more individualistic than community driven, given you leave behind your community to their fate

Wow yeah some people left the vast majority didn't. And that still does not detract from the fact that in 1 harrowing instance caused mostly by your ancestors as Ireland was a net exporter of food at the time does not change the fact that Ireland (Even to this day) is a communitarian country.

Whiskey certainly changed over the time period, with English advancements in distillation, with Rum introduced too. A shift away from a beef diet as more of the country was drained and brought under cultivation too

The big Irish whiskey producers in the late 1800s tried to stop whiskey made using the non traditional method of whiskey (Coffey still) but sure keep talking about stuff you are just objectively wrong about. And even then you also have poitín as well that has been produced throughout the ages.

And this aspect of modern day ireland, 100 years after independence? Which has its seeds in the game period?

You are just simply put a moron.

 

[Sithodox2286]

We have culture, language, court-language and religion to represent diversity. 99% of time, so-called hybrid-cultures are just different combination of these things than what they were.

Long story short, I'll support a detailed checking of whether X people should speak Y language and follow Z faith. And that should determine the difficulty to handle pops, rather than push everything to "culture". In Vicky 3, they don't have a language system and faith is under-used. At late game vic3, spaming hybrid-cultures would eventually crush your gameplay performance.

CK3 also under-used language system, but at least it would influence NPC attitudes along with what "culture" they belong.

 

[strattonthebard]

We have culture, language, court-language and religion to represent diversity. 99% of time, so-called hybrid-cultures are just different combination of these things than what they were.

Long story short, I'll support a detailed checking of whether X people should speak Y language and follow Z faith. In Vicky 3, they don't have a language system and faith is under-used. At late game vic3, spaming hybrid-cultures would eventually crush your gameplay performance.

CK3 also under-used language system, but at least it would influence NPC attitudes along with what "culture" they belong.

Is it possible for a pop to have a different language status than the language assigned to their culture by default? Or do we not know either way?

 

[Inzano]

Is it possible for a pop to have a different language status than the language assigned to their culture by default? Or do we not know either way?

As far as I know, pops all have the same language as their culture, so that their only attribute is culture, and this culture has the attribute language/dialect.

Besides, what would be the point of assigning a language to a culture, and then having all members of the culture speak a different language?

 

[livebythecreed77]

Is it possible for a pop to have a different language status than the language assigned to their culture by default? Or do we not know either way?

Maybe not a pop but certainly characters yeah. And especially when French became the lingua Franca throughout all european courts the rulers culture should stay intact

 

[Inzano]

Maybe not a pop but certainly characters yeah. And especially when French became the lingua Franca throughout all european courts the rulers culture should stay intact

Characters can probably learn languages (and may know more) as in CK3. For example, to more easily engage in diplomatic cooperation with a foreign country or to more easily communicate with subjects of different languages.

The Counts of Cilli must know Slovenian and German in the game, because they communicated in both languages in IRL.