I think I like Astral Planes

[HFY]

This is a positive product review. It just doesn't start out that way because I was underwhelmed by some of the more obvious elements at first. But there's good stuff in there, and after playing a bit, I feel like I can talk about the whole DLC somewhat fairly.

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Astral Actions are mostly awful.

+% Physics because they added some Physics techs is what I see mods doing, based on the incorrect assumption that tech trees were balanced before the new techs got thrown in.

Paying threads to unlock a new Rift is basically demanding that I focus on that new system to pay for the privilege of focusing on that new system. It's disconnected from the rest of the game.

The new special building is just a Research Lab except cheaper. Not much to say except having a colony-unique required building feels bad for empires with limited building slots. It's not exciting unless I'm low on gas, in which case it's a bit power-creepy.

Locking a system is interesting but seems to be mis-used by the AI. I see a lot of irrelevant locks happening in the galaxy during peaceful times.

Tannhauser Trebuchet isn't terrible but it's not so good I would focus on it early enough for the AA to matter.

The Edicts are pretty good, or rather they would be good if I could get them early enough to matter. I'd move them up from last to 2nd or 3rd. By the time I get them, I'm usually set for encryption, and there's not much point in paying a high price for another +10% when I'm getting +30% from every colony's capital and +40% from every pop.​

If it were up to me, I'd move the Edicts earlier, and add some new Edicts -- like somehow pay threads to get visibility into every system with a rift, so some other empire going hard on rift purchases might have a security issue because of that. Do it early enough that you're not competing against your own Sentry Array. Or make that an early Astral Action which lasts for N years, early enough that it can shape your exploration.

In terms of singing the praises of Astral Actions, the 2nd Relic trigger is pretty great, and feels integrated with an element from outside the DLC itself -- that's good design. I don't use it often, but it feels great when I can.

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Error handling is poor, and corner-cases feel unfinished.

If I capture a dig site mid-excavation, I can take it over and get the reward. I have declared war specifically to take the Grand Herald, for example. There should be mechanics to do the same thing for a rift mid-exploration, or a way to pay to keep going in spite of losing the system if it's something I value enough to over-pay to finish.

If my scientist dies or gets stolen by an event mid-excavation, I know how to re-start a dig site. It's not clear how to resume a rift.

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The Rifts themselves are spotty.

Some of them are mostly boring, like the alien circus where I'm just clicking through "acts" which read like nonsense and then make a choice to buy a reward (which is static but undocumented in-game so it's a wiki-walk). The rewards are actually creative and some are useful for under-powered empires, but I don't like having to look things up to get the right reward, and I don't like clicking through the same static text across several games.

The desert ruins where you have to guess a color, number, and shape to move on are really dull. Again, wiki-walk because it's a meaningless static """choice""" which varies only by secret static criteria (scientist aquatic or toxoid). Boring and bad design, like a less-convenient dig site with extra steps.

But then there are the good ones, like the Baol Rift.

I've played the Baol Rift through with several different empires, and it's been satisfying every time. I really like being able to express my empire's personality through different choices as they relate to a precursor that I care about a bit. Every stage of the Baol Rift which offers a choice does so with enough information that I've never felt an urge to look something up on the wiki. I'm making informed choices each time. That matters so much because there are too many janky random guesses in the game already.

Zroni Rift looks like it also has some choices but I don't remember as many, and I haven't seen it yet when playing a Psionic empire (because it's the Machine Age so I'm not playing Psionic much).

But there are some good rifts like the Baol, which show how to do player interactions right:
- Several different paths which match how many different empires would naturally view the event
- Choices matter in that I can express my empire's personality and get an appropriate result for each action
- Fits into established lore rather than trying to create drama from a disconnected novelty
- Choices at every stage, with sufficient information that you don't need to guess what's appropriate for your empire (except maybe the first choice if you haven't seen the rift yet).

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I just did the Baol rift for the 5th time, with a different empire each time, and it was satisfying enough that I came here to basically write a love letter to that rift in particular.

This is good design. It's great to see that Paradox can write things like the Baol Rift.

It would be even better if all the rifts were that good, of course, but at least there's a really great example I can point at and say: "Do it like that, I know you can because you did."


Overall, I feel like Astral Planes feels like an 80% finished product, with some great stuff like the Baol Rift, some decent stuff like the few Astral Actions which I use often, and a bunch of place-holders which could be improved by better writing and stronger lore integration -- perhaps things Custodians can improve, in addition to fixing corner-cases like capturing or re-starting a Rift.

In general, I'm pretty satisfied with this product right now.



Anyone else played enouth Rifts to have changed your mind about the DLC? Or have a new opinion after playing it a bit?

 

[Methone]

I just don't like the concept of the DLC and refuse it on that principal. "We make Ancient Ruins, again. And charge you for it, again."

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

I like Astral Planes.

The concept is neat: explorable portals to the multiverse.

It does feel rough, though: the balance is questionable, there's missing QOL, and the mandatory wiki walk is annoying.

It also gets the well-deserved criticism that it's Ancient Relics except reskinned and with branching choice storylines, the latter of which is arguably a minus considering how it necessitates wiki walking. It would have been nice if there was some other gimmick to differentiate it from Ancient Relics: rifts are digsites and astral actions are relics you don't have to collect. I can see why people might be annoyed about that, especially for a game where each DLC is meant to have a distinct identity.

 

[Eladrin]

It also gets the well-deserved criticism that it's Ancient Relics except reskinned and with branching choice storylines

That was a major difference in our eyes. Most (if not all) of the Astral Rifts are significantly larger than Archaeology Sites due to the multiple endings and choices.

A common complaint about Ancient Relics was the lack of interactivity in the Archaeology Sites - "walking down a hallway" was the phrase that I think ASpec used. We attempted to address that with Astral Planes by giving you impactful choices and multiple endings.

I do think that we could have done a much better job showing the amount of variation in the Rifts - from a player's perspective in a single playthrough there's no different between a completely linear Arch Site and a branching Rift, since you're only going to see one path through during a session.

 

[Edorath]

it's not a bad DLC but it does need an urgent balance pass on some cases

 

[Evethor]

That was a major difference in our eyes. Most (if not all) of the Astral Rifts are significantly larger than Archaeology Sites due to the multiple endings and choices.

A common complaint about Ancient Relics was the lack of interactivity in the Archaeology Sites - "walking down a hallway" was the phrase that I think ASpec used. We attempted to address that with Astral Planes by giving you impactful choices and multiple endings.

I do think that we could have done a much better job showing the amount of variation in the Rifts - from a player's perspective in a single playthrough there's no different between a completely linear Arch Site and a branching Rift, since you're only going to see one path through during a session.

Is there really "multiple endings" when one of the endings is much better than the others?
I try to not sweatmax the game, but the minmaxer in me is an unruly beast.

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

That was a major difference in our eyes. Most (if not all) of the Astral Rifts are significantly larger than Archaeology Sites due to the multiple endings and choices.

A common complaint about Ancient Relics was the lack of interactivity in the Archaeology Sites - "walking down a hallway" was the phrase that I think ASpec used. We attempted to address that with Astral Planes by giving you impactful choices and multiple endings.

I do think that we could have done a much better job showing the amount of variation in the Rifts - from a player's perspective in a single playthrough there's no different between a completely linear Arch Site and a branching Rift, since you're only going to see one path through during a session.

For sure. To your guy’s credit, some of the rifts are really detailed and have top-tier stories.

Additionally, the branching outcomes does make you feel like you’re doing one of those Choose Your Own Adventure stories from the 80s and 90s.

Out of everything I mentioned, I’d say the wiki walking hurts the most. Even if you’re not trying to min-max desired outcomes, having the wiki open is preferable to losing a scientist for choosing the wrong outcome.

 

[Metallichydra]

I think, while most of the civics were kind of boring (Especially hyperspace speciality), the Dark Consortium civic is among the more fun civics in the game (Granted you have galactic paragons).

I just wish it had some unique dark matter technologies and cosmogenesis didn't give dark matter techs. That way it could really shine with its "Do I want to permanently lock my civic slot to gain some cool techs?"

 

[Harkinian's Dinner]

That was a major difference in our eyes. Most (if not all) of the Astral Rifts are significantly larger than Archaeology Sites due to the multiple endings and choices.

A common complaint about Ancient Relics was the lack of interactivity in the Archaeology Sites - "walking down a hallway" was the phrase that I think ASpec used. We attempted to address that with Astral Planes by giving you impactful choices and multiple endings.

I do think that we could have done a much better job showing the amount of variation in the Rifts - from a player's perspective in a single playthrough there's no different between a completely linear Arch Site and a branching Rift, since you're only going to see one path through during a session.

I love the rifts for their varied and extensive stories and I like the DLC in general, even as a pretty critical person. The reception really isn't all bad.

I think the main problem with the branching paths is that they mostly feel like a total gamble. Other than the extremely vague "difficulty" marker on them there's rarely any clue what the pros and cons of each choice are, and more importantly, what factors affect the difficulty. I never look up spoilers, so I have no idea if things like different traits on the scientist or different ethics affect the outcomes, but if they do I would like the game to tell me so I can make a more informed decision where it feels like my choices matter. I would NOT like the game to tell me what the reward is for each route though, that would ruin the mystery.

 

[HFY]

I think the main problem with the branching paths is that they mostly feel like a total gamble. Other than the extremely vague "difficulty" marker on them there's rarely any clue what the pros and cons of each choice are, and more importantly, what factors affect the difficulty. I never look up spoilers, so I have no idea if things like different traits on the scientist or different ethics affect the outcomes, but if they do I would like the game to tell me so I can make a more informed decision where it feels like my choices matter. I would NOT like the game to tell me what the reward is for each route though, that would ruin the mystery.

Yeah, when I ask for enough information to make a decision, I'm not asking to see the reward text in the first prompt.

What I like about the Baol Rift is that every stage allows me to make a decision which makes sense for my empire. I can RP the rift correctly. The decisions don't have a mechanical benefit but I know what each choice means. And then there are rewards which might be appropriate? I got flamethrower armies at one point but armies are meaningless so it felt like a decent RP choice but it didn't help because I only built Xenomorphs at that point in the game.

Spoiler: Flamethrower Army Rant

Basically, if I'm building armies after the early game, I have no idea what each one will do, because the only convenient way to build armies is to use the Starbase interface, and the Starbase interface hides all information about the strength / health / etc. of the armies. It also doesn't show me where the next army would be built so if I want to maximize speed of army completion -- which I very much do because I often forget to build them -- then what I want is an army I can build in parallel on every colony, and that's Xenomorphs. They're also decently strong.

So Xenomorph is what I click, every single time, and it works. Other strange things sometimes appear in the army list, but I can't see what they do from the starbase interface, so I don't bother with them.

Flamethrower armies feels like an appropriate benefit for a sadistic empire that sided with the Grunur, but it's just flavor to me. Good flavor, but it's unfortunate that the mechanics will never matter to me until the army building UX improves.

What I dislike about the Circus Rift is that there are no real choices until the end, at which point all there is to do is choose a reward, and I have to look up which reward is which. There's nothing about the rift which allows me to RP my empire. There are no choices where I can express the personality of the people I'm trying to portray. Give me enough info that I can remember which path means what reward, or better yet re-write the thing to not be just some static-text fever dreams and then guess-the-reward "choices".

Many other rifts fall somewhere in between, like there's the one where you find a dude and you can bring him onto your ship. If you do, he takes your crew member hostage. Deciding what to do about that situation is fun because I'm RP'ing my empire. Do we negotiate? Do we take a hard line? It's a good choice because it's something that different empires will answer in their own way.

The mechanics of the bonus at the end (if there was one) mattered much less to me than the ability to express my empire's personality through roleplay.

Baol Rift is extra-good because it ties well into the pre-existing lore AND lets me roleplay my empire.

 

[Thiend]

That was a major difference in our eyes. Most (if not all) of the Astral Rifts are significantly larger than Archaeology Sites due to the multiple endings and choices.

A common complaint about Ancient Relics was the lack of interactivity in the Archaeology Sites - "walking down a hallway" was the phrase that I think ASpec used. We attempted to address that with Astral Planes by giving you impactful choices and multiple endings.

I do think that we could have done a much better job showing the amount of variation in the Rifts - from a player's perspective in a single playthrough there's no different between a completely linear Arch Site and a branching Rift, since you're only going to see one path through during a session.

It is my personal opinion that the main issue with some of them is just imbalanced rewards. They have branching paths, but then some of those paths lead to far better rewards, so once I've found the best reward I'm strongly incentivized to never experience the other branches unless I forget how I got the good reward.

It occurs to me that it might make some degree of sense, although I imagine it would be quite a bit of work on your end, for rifts to occasionally be repeatable (basically allow the rift to 'open' twice or more, eventually). That might resolve all issues, as a player would then be able to experience more than one branch per playthrough and also obtain the better reward if their first chosen path(s) had a worse one.

 

[Dragatus]

My opinion on the Astral Planes DLC has gone down over time. I used to think it was quite nice, now I think it's merely okay.

1. The rifts themselves I like, though not all are made equal. I broadly agree with the opinion regarding specific rifts that have been brought up so far. But I also mostly don't care too much about missing out on the best reward. Except the one where it's fungus vs wind where I always side with the fungus because it's nice to have more exotic gases to fuel my science worlds.

2. The astral actions I dislike. They are very useful, but they feel tacked on, artificial and self-serving. I don't want DLC that makes my empire stronger, I want DLC that gives me more different ways to play the game. It's also annoying to get spammed by messages that I can use them when I don't want to. I think I'd prefer it if all the astral actions were on the same cooldown, just like all active effects of relics are.

3. I dislike the introduction of Astral Threads as a new resource. They again feel tacked on and self-serving. And I always eventually produce so many that I'm constantly pushing the capacity limit, but too few to activate the edicts without getting a monthly deficit. I would've preferred it if they went with Dark Matter as the resource that fuels astral actions (though not having astral actions at all would've been even better), because that already exists from before and it ties into the rest of the game.

4. I have a love/hate relationship with the Formless. They're so bad for the game and yet I can't keep away from them. The temptation of making all my leaders immortal is just too great. That's 4 species trait points freed up for non-lifespan stuff, which is huge. And a 75% chance to get a vassal that doubles how quickly you research physics technologies (including energy weapon repeatables, oh sweet energy weapon repeatables). And on the 25% chance that the Formless get uppity you still get the relic, but now you have a size 40 Gaia world to either convert into an ecumenopolis or use as a resort world. It's just way too good. And once you own the system you can fix the capitalization too.

5. The origin I used once. It was okay, but it's just a fast-track to explore the DLC content. The civics are nice. I particularly appreciate Sovreign Guardianship for a new take on militarist ethics.

So to sum up: I like the rifts & civics, but hate everything else. As far as fixing things goes, the worst thing is that getting a Luminarium subject also come with getting the relic that makes your leaders immortal. We should be forced to pick one. And the relic shouldn't passively make leaders immortal in the first place. That's stupidly good and not only does it not tie into existing mechanics, it actually invalidates all life-extension efforts in the game. Not to mention how it negates the downside of Overtuned traits. Overtuned origin + the Eternal Throne is just bonkers.

Perhaps the passive and active effects could be switched. You passively produce a lot more Astral Threads, but you can temporarily make your leaders immortal with the active effect. They would return to mortal once the effect runs out though. So you'd have the option to activate the relic to get 10 years in which to research techs that will extend the lifespan of that old leader you want to keep alive, but you wouldn't just invalidate a chunk of the game.

Lumanarium subject is also stupidly good. -50% physics technology cost is too much. It would still be evry strong even at half that value.

So to sum up my suggestions for how to make it better:
- swap passive and active effect on the Eternal Throne relic
- reduce Luminarium vassal effect from -50% physics technology cost to -25% physics technology cost

 

[HFY]

And once you own the system you can fix the capitalization too.

Truly the game favors conquest.

 

[hart30]

Hearing about the capitalization OCD kinda wants me to see more systems, maybe even a whole species name list with intentionally small capitalization. Triggering people for fun whenever they encounter an empire with that namelist

Yes, I am evil.

 

[HFY]

small capitalization

Do you mean non-capitalization, or do you mean poor people?

 

[Metallichydra]

5. The origin I used once. It was okay, but it's just a fast-track to explore the DLC content. The civics are nice. I particularly appreciate Sovreign Guardianship for a new take on militarist ethics.

Unfortunately origins like this seems to be the standard for now, considering the cosmic storms DLC will also have a storm-related origin that just seems to be "get-to-play-with-storms-faster"

We can also see this with Arc-welders and to a certain extent also cybernetic creed, whose story feels incredibly shallow and serves mostly as a fast-track to cybernetic ascension.

 

[Foxosaur]

I personally liked astral planes on release and reviewed it that way but I can understand why many didn't. I think there's a degree of cynicism of 'improved ancient relics' over and above itself as a DlC and it 'being re-sold'. Think I was just a sucker for how pweety it all is but I have genuinely enjoyed it.

Astral actions feel progressive the first few times you play imo and I don't know if I agree that they feel tacked on, maybe more that the UI and buttons are on the larger side and maybe don't fit in much with the games display.

I never bothered much with the disappearing of a fleet ability, the game didn't make it obvious where the, or what the bonus is that has been given and I've never easily found it. The interdimensional fleet is awesome in large and huge maps but your still significantly constrained by the time limit. If that time limit doesn't scale on map size, then it would be too much for those smaller ones and definitely too powerful.

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

size 40 Gaia world

Not related to Astral Planes specifically, but it’s crazy how planet size has crept higher over the years.

Back in the day, size 25 was considered amazing, then we got size 30, and now we have a size 40 world in the game.

 

[Metallichydra]

Not related to Astral Planes specifically, but it’s crazy how planet size has crept higher over the years.

Back in the day, size 25 was considered amazing, then we got size 30, and now we have a size 40 world in the game.

And not only bigger planets, but also more ways to get more districts on said planets.

Expand Planetary Sea
Orbital Rings
The new insight tech that gives +1 district on all non-artificial planets

 

[Rafss]

It lets you get Immortal Leaders AND Matter Disintegrators in every single game by late mid-game unless you actively avoid it. For every game you play, by late mid-game all leaders will ignore age mechanics regardless of Ascension Paths, and all ships can get a Crisis weapon before any Crisis happens (the Prethoryn are royally screwed).
I bet the same devs who outright killed the Worm event (which happened every game) would like to tweak that or the rewards, that's the only major balance issue I see, even though immortal leaders are quite convenient and the disintegrator pairs well with the earliest repeatables you often get: energy weapon buffs.