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Kerham

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Mar 13, 2011
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If they can take in a single war all the land marked in blue when they had claims only on the western 3 territories marked with pink.
And then they immediately go to war with my neighbour which will probably get fully annexed.

Is impossible to have that expansionism controlled (from the p.o.v. of stability) via innovations in 511, they barely got a whole 1 tech since the beginning of the game.

I know it sounds like a meme but is literally unplayable otherwise than migratory (which is an exploit in itself, re sustainability of armies).
(Secod image for context).
 

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They will inevitably face rebellious provinces that they won't be able to pacify due to AE and wrong religion/culture

That's what I will watch for, not much left to do in this game (as that small blue patch there ^^). I recognize a behaviour from EU4 where AI will do anything possible to destroy the player, without a concern for own agenda/future/stability etc. But since here we lack the coalition mechanic, only a region-wide revolt of provinces could mean something, a civil war in Rome, from what I witnessed so far, is just a change of leadership, it lets the country unscathed.
 
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And no, they didn't. I was clicking various provinces and two times already they got a buff accross the board of 30-40 loyalty. This one province jumped that much in 4-5 months while I was clicking other provinces. In 530 or so was at 9 loyalty, then a new governor changed policy to harsh, went to 11, few months later 50+ then dropping again.

All of them been for 36 years on increased autonomy/harsh treatment, even so with a monthly tick from -0.1 to -0.4, yet every time they reached under 10 they would jump miraculously.
 

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It feels like Rome's buffs are supposed to make it into a sort of endgame boss if you or another AI don't squash them early or mid-game.
But it's kind of frustrating that they can expand QUITE so quickly.
 
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They will inevitably face rebellious provinces that they won't be able to pacify due to AE and wrong religion/culture

And no, they didn't. I was clicking various provinces and two times already they got a buff accross the board of 30-40 loyalty. This one province jumped that much in 4-5 months while I was clicking other provinces. In 530 or so was at 9 loyalty, then a new governor changed policy to harsh, went to 11, few months later 50+ then dropping again.
@Kerham is correct here, though that magic buff is no Rome special. All AIs get in v2.02 a +30 loyalty boost (was even +35 for 2.0 and 2.01) for every other province right in the moment one revolts - leading to only occasional revolts of single provinces that even AIs crack down without any trouble (as the rebels rarely have a significant number of troops, the AI is to inefficient with the mercs it hires and not even a fortified rebel capital is guaranteed)

For the entire discussion about this (from side of the community here) not so-beloved-AI-boost go here:

 
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Pfew thanks I wasn't aware and I spent a couple of hours checking if I didn't got mad or something.

Then frankly that kind of cuts it for me for awhile, will go play something else. What's the point of espionage actions like "inspire disloyalty" or that one with rebels then?
 

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They will inevitably face rebellious provinces that they won't be able to pacify due to AE and wrong religion/culture
No. Because whenever one province rebel, all other provinces get +35 loyalty.
 
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Pfew thanks I wasn't aware and I spent a couple of hours checking if I didn't got mad or something.

Then frankly that kind of cuts it for me for awhile, will go play something else. What's the point of espionage actions like "inspire disloyalty" or that one with rebels then?
You could also use that tiny mod which just takes away that bonus :)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2412911176

I'm currently trying it out as well, as it can be activated for ongoing saves. I have only played a few years since then, so I can't give a full report on how it plays out. But I'm quite optimistic that the result will be a positive one. Even if it should make the AIs a tad too unstable, I prefer a rise and fall of empires over inevitable snowballing.
 
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It feels like Rome's buffs are supposed to make it into a sort of endgame boss if you or another AI don't squash them early or mid-game.
But it's kind of frustrating that they can expand QUITE so quickly.

I agree. I think Rome's early expansion is too rapid (and so is everyone else's for that matter, if they put their ai minds to it), and too slow later in the game.
 
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If they can take in a single war all the land marked in blue when they had claims only on the western 3 territories marked with pink.
And then they immediately go to war with my neighbour which will probably get fully annexed.

Is impossible to have that expansionism controlled (from the p.o.v. of stability) via innovations in 511, they barely got a whole 1 tech since the beginning of the game.

I know it sounds like a meme but is literally unplayable otherwise than migratory (which is an exploit in itself, re sustainability of armies).
(Secod image for context).
The tribal tech is a real problem. I think a neighbor bonus should be added for Tribals. If they are located next to advanced nations, they get an increased research bonus like if "Behind Times". If the advanced nation is a subject, the tribal gets another boost to research via "Sharing". This would encourage tribals to vassalize city states instead of conquering them (which had historical pretext).
 
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I agree. I think Rome's early expansion is too rapid (and so is everyone else's for that matter, if they put their ai minds to it), and too slow later in the game.
Early game claims are just thrown at Rome, completely covering Italia, Illyria, and Greece. Later, Rome just quietly snakes its way into Anatolia, Egypt, and Levant. But mostly it just declares on small tribals and avoids Carthage (and vice versa).
 
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What's the point of espionage actions like "inspire disloyalty" or that one with rebels then?
The rebels one is pointless, but inspire disloyalty is amazing. Combined with the AI's disregard of AE hits to stability and happiness, you can take huge swaths of territory by corrupting governors. I took all of Magna Graecia off Rome that way in a previous game.
 
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The tribal tech is a real problem. I think a neighbor bonus should be added for Tribals. If they are located next to advanced nations, they get an increased research bonus like if "Behind Times". If the advanced nation is a subject, the tribal gets another boost to research via "Sharing". This would encourage tribals to vassalize city states instead of conquering them (which had historical pretext).

Imo the problem is not the tech (or only marginal), is pops, and here is where Rome's buffs are insane, even if is not direct, but a consequence. In regards to pop growth, except some super-minmax and surgically choosing a few territories ingame, you're looking at a pop growth rate of 0.25 to 0.4 or so. That means one extra pop per territory in 20ish to 30ish years. If in this time Rome is getting for free the whole Italy, is also getting this first wave of pop growth, which is an exponential growth for the tag itself. And then it only snowballs from there. If afterwards in 30 years it goes from 3k something pops to 7k, is irrelevant if the new 4k are wrong culture and wrong religion (because as seen above this has no effect on Rome). And after other 30 years or so, they will be right culture and religion pops, with even more newly generated pops, with their levies, manpower and income just snowballing.

The devs purposedly balanced pop growth in 2.0 exactly to not have this snowballing effect, but they let it be for a few selected AIs, with the other hand, via expansion.

Hence to counter this, or rather to stand a chance when the time comes, the only viable strat is to gain territories extremely fast, so even with a modest tribal growth you'd stand a chance to create a reasonable pool, which later to be specialized with cities. Which means colonizing as a migrant tribe, due to the forced culturalization and conversion of the settlers. And not only to get territories and pop for yourself, but also to block Rome. So you need to cement somewhere either in Illyria or close to it, speaking from an eastern perspective, respectively +- Provence from a western one. Surely you can also conquer, but again as a migrant, and rather in a limited manner, since you need to somehow contain all the AE, WE etc.

And is simply a bad mechanic if migratory is the only choice for all tribals bordering Rome or being in close range, and it has zero connection with how actual history went. Neither Gauls, neither Dacians, neither Germanic tribes were a pushover for Rome and this is not reflected at all ingame. And is making the whole centralization path redundant as a choice of gameplay, its only merit is to be an appendix for migratory gameplay.

They really need to have those claims toned down, AI's stability needs to be toned down, there must be revolts and AI must be able to take in account how many provinces would be able to control afterwards. There need to exist some sort of coring costs, some budgeting of all these actions, otherwise as it stands now, AI Rome (and Egypt and Maurya) are not actually playing themselves I:R, but some sort of point and click.

If some players need more challenge, then just make a hardcore setting, which to combine the AI buffs to stability etc with whatever "hard" brings and make it a choice at the start of the game. But as it stands now, with AI free to expand at literally no cost, this is not "normal" level.
 
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Imo the problem is not the tech (or only marginal), is pops, and here is where Rome's buffs are insane, even if is not direct, but a consequence. In regards to pop growth, except some super-minmax and surgically choosing a few territories ingame, you're looking at a pop growth rate of 0.25 to 0.4 or so. That means one extra pop per territory in 20ish to 30ish years. If in this time Rome is getting for free the whole Italy, is also getting this first wave of pop growth, which is an exponential growth for the tag itself. And then it only snowballs from there. If afterwards in 30 years it goes from 3k something pops to 7k, is irrelevant if the new 4k are wrong culture and wrong religion (because as seen above this has no effect on Rome). And after other 30 years or so, they will be right culture and religion pops, with even more newly generated pops, with their levies, manpower and income just snowballing.
The early pop growth of Rome is also affected by the warmth period event (which happens in every game). It only lasts 10 years, but within that time frame each month the pop growth in increased by 2.0% (no typo - each territory gets +2.4 pops over that time span!). Again, this is no special Rome trick (other tags can profit as well, provided their geographical location fits; someone more code-affine might bring up the details), but it likely fuels their early performance further.
 
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I agree. I think Rome's early expansion is too rapid (and so is everyone else's for that matter, if they put their ai minds to it), and too slow later in the game.

Thats one way to put it. If you play syracuse for example you wont even get half way through your first mission tree before Rome takes over all of southern italy making your magna graecia mission tree pointless as there are no more greek city states left there. Same is true for Epirus and their magna graecia mission tree.
 
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For me, the main issue with Rome's current buffs (and the aggressive AI in general) is that their relative strength and stability is forcing the player to adopt an aggressive and expansionist playstyle as well in order to survive into the mid or late game, depending on where you start. It's quite difficult to enjoy a more peaceful or tall game when Rome and every other large AI empire is almost guaranteed to succeed and never breaks apart.

It would be nice to have an option to disable the antagonist tag at the start of the game, and we need a balancing pass to ensure larger AI empires will occasionally fail.
 
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