Ideas for Japan

[Specialist290]

I'll be posting a few ideas I've had for Japan (as well as related events for other countries involved) in this thread. For this first post, I'll just sketch out a few general ideas without delving too deep into specifics: Details as to event setups, leaders, etc. will probably be worked out in future posts by myself or anyone else willing to offer input.

I'm using the backstory developed in this post as a backdrop on which to develop my own ideas. Kudos to Shogun 144

My ideas do not involve any real changes to the 1419 starting setup.

A. Korean Intervention
From the period around 1419 to 1430, the southern Japanese provinces remain restless and divisive even under nominal Korean rule, simulated in-game by increasing revolt risk in the three affected provinces (Kansai, Kyushu, Shikoku). (The revolt risk will be subsequently reduced once this particular sequence has run its course, regardless of the ultimate outcome.) In 1430 the rebellious Japanese daimyo of the southern provinces appeal to the Tenno for support, giving him the choice of either backing down (with appropriate consequences) or supporting their cause (which results in war w/ Korea). Close to the beginning of the war a border lord, "Great Fictional Japanese General," (I'm not really good w/ Oriental names), should be able to spawn for either side (but not both at the same time!). Our Great Fictional Japanese General would have very good stats (particularly a siege bonus), since it's my intention that whoever gets him should "win" the war.

If the Koreans still control territory in Japan by 1500, or if they manage to capture Edo before then, then they are "victorious" and acquire cores on any of the provinces they still control, possibly with events for converting the provinces to Korean culture later on (c. 1700-1750?; possibly lose cores if Japan has reconquered them in this time). (In the case of the "Capture Edo" scenario, the Koreans could additionally also vassalize Japan.) If the Japanese manage to retake the provinces from the Koreans, then the revolt risk should be reduced when the province passes back into Japanese hands; after 1700 or so, Japan loses its cores on any provinces not in its hands.

(Possible secondary consideration: If Japan (or Japanese clans; see "Sengoku" below) no longer exists and Korea controls at least one province in the isles, it gets cores on the whole island.)

B. Sengoku
Should be reasonably simple to model--one independent faction per Japanese province, representing six major daimyo clans. The split starts ~1520-1530, and the player should be able to pick whichever clan he wishes to support. If one clan manages to control all five "heartland" provinces (all Japanese provinces minus Ezochi) before 1600, or any clan that controls three of the five at that time, inherits the others and reforms Japan proper. (It might be appropriate to associate each clan w/ a particular "ideology" vis-a-vis innovativeness (primarily Southern clans) vs. traditionalism (primarily Northern clans), which would have effects on the course of future events after reunification.)

(Might not happen in the case of a Korean victory in the south, or might experience a "watered-down" version w/ lots of random revolts and revolt risk. Also might not happen if Japan is united under a strong Kotei emperor.)

C. Foreign Influences
This chain might not even come into play in every game--if the province of Luzon is Christian or Muslim between 1550 or 1580 (i.e. implying settlement by a Christian / Muslim power), then it would trigger a conversion of Kyushu to that particular religion. Also, between 1560 and 1590, if Kyushu is controlled by one of the "innovative" southern clans, that clan should have the option of converting to that religion (and possibly going on to form Japan under it). I'm not sure how close Japan historically came to becoming a Christian nation, but I think that this would be one of those "what-if" situations that makes Interregnum so interesting.

(Will probably cover the remaining period later...)

 

[MattyG]

Korean Intervention

I had been thinking about some of these issues myself and one of the things we have never resolved here is whether we can justify that one culture is more 'assimilable' than another. My gut feeling is that the Japanese and their strong cultural insularity and xenophobia would prevent anyone but a Japanese-based country to get that culture group. But then maybe it would just take more time. I feel that 1500 might be a little early for gaining cores and or culture group.

Or, in this case, converting them to Korean culture. I think that, given that the Korean population there at the time is essentially less than 1%, it would require a LOT of forced migration.

Please refute.

However, I like the basic premise of the early revolt events.

I also think that the Japanese provinces ought to have a special series of revolt randoms, reflecting the independence of province/family/regional Japan.

Which leads me to the second item ...

Sengoku

This is intriguing. It will be juicier with the new map, too. As you say, it needs to happen later and only if certain things have (or have not) happened with Korea. I think that if Korea has been kicked off the island (victorious emperor, resulting centralization of authority), or has come to really dominate it (too few spoils to fight over), then this would not occur. But a stubbornly have-sized Japan would be subject to this, probably something fed by the Koreans, too.


Foreign Influences

Foreign religions still have little impact in Japan. I think it should be very difficult for any religion to flourish there. In fact, I would ask that each province has an event to reverse the first successful conversion.



Now to coding etc

In your other thread Incompetent had already responded to encourage you to contribute.

To make things easier, I can do all of the coding. Coding is fast for me. What takes a long time os planning the storylines and writing text. Oh, and finding all the connections to other countries, that can take time too. But anyway, the short version of this is that if you send the text descriptions, dates/date periods and an idea of relative outcomes, I can code up for you/us.

Matty

 

[Rhodz]

I know I've gone off the radar for a bit, and that's mostly because I'm waiting for the new map, but I have all my Korea stuff written down on a pad next to me that I'll probably post in the next few days as where I see Korea going. Just so we can work out the points of convergence and whatnot. I'm happy to change parts, but first I'll just post it all. After my last exam (3 days away)

Hopefully we can get Shogun back, too.

 

[Specialist290]

Thanks for the responses, guys

Korean Intervention

I had been thinking about some of these issues myself and one of the things we have never resolved here is whether we can justify that one culture is more 'assimilable' than another. My gut feeling is that the Japanese and their strong cultural insularity and xenophobia would prevent anyone but a Japanese-based country to get that culture group. But then maybe it would just take more time. I feel that 1500 might be a little early for gaining cores and or culture group.

Or, in this case, converting them to Korean culture. I think that, given that the Korean population there at the time is essentially less than 1%, it would require a LOT of forced migration.

Please refute.

Hmm... On second thought, now that you've pointed these out, it does seem to make a lot more sense your way. The "early cores" was more something to give the Koreans a reason to "hang onto" what they have by that point, but the date could be pushed back (in fact, we could probably put it just after the Sengoku period--if the Koreans aren't kicked out by then, then it could be assumed that their rule has acquired a sort of legitimacy). However, w/ cultures, it's now making a lot more sense to me to just add Japanese as an accepted culture for Korea than to convert the provinces.

Of course, we could just leave the "cultural assimilation / acceptance" factor out entirely and keep this as a perpetually unstable area for Korea.

However, I like the basic premise of the early revolt events.

Thanks.

I also think that the Japanese provinces ought to have a special series of revolt randoms, reflecting the independence of province/family/regional Japan.

Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps our Hero General could be set up along those lines (only less random). We could have a "buffer" state revolt from either the Japanese or the Koreans, then set up a series of events to determine his alignment--he could ally with either the Japanese or Koreans, or simply try to make his own way by playing the two against each other (which, incidentally, would make an interesting possible transition to an early Sengoku...). If he allies w/ the Emperor, then he becomes a vassal of Japan who inherits it when he dies (similar to the Murcian Wolf King setup for Andalus). If he chooses to ally w/ Korea or go indie and then captures Edo, he could then overthrow the government (although not the Imperial line--I'm not going to try to deviate that unrealistically) and set himself up as Shogun (and in the case of the former, he'd also get a choice as to whether to remain loyal to his Korean "masters" or stab them in the back--just to make things interesting, we could even make the latter the more likely AI option ).

Actually, if we push Hero General back to 1450-1470, we'd have interesting possibilities for a smooth (in the relative sense of the word) transition between the early part of the game and the Sengoku and allow for some Korean meddling. He'd be strong enough to keep Japan united as long as he rules as Shogun, but on his death around ~1520, everything starts to fall apart...

Which leads me to the second item ...

Sengoku

This is intriguing. It will be juicier with the new map, too. As you say, it needs to happen later and only if certain things have (or have not) happened with Korea. I think that if Korea has been kicked off the island (victorious emperor, resulting centralization of authority), or has come to really dominate it (too few spoils to fight over), then this would not occur. But a stubbornly have-sized Japan would be subject to this, probably something fed by the Koreans, too.

From what I see from your post (as well as a few of the things I've added above), it looks like we could have three main possibilities up to this point:

--A. Strong (possibly Unified) Japan under Emperor, with at least most of the northern islands in his hands (i.e. Koreans held back in Shikoku and Kyshu, maybe also w/ a small foothold on Honshu). No Sengoku, as warlords have already bowed to the Emperor.
--B. Strong (possibly United) Japan under Hero General (same as above). Sengoku kicks off when he dies.
--C. Korean Dominance. Weak or nonexistent Japan. No Sengoku for obvious reasons.

The only real problem I'd see is how we'd manage the southern islands if the Koreans still held them, since obviously we couldn't release any nations there. Possibly we could have two separate events dependent on whether the Japanese had actually unified all Japan or simply contained the Koreans in the south and/or trigger separate "secession" events for Korea to allow the other states to participate, too. I'd probably opt for just the former, to keep things simple, and secede the remaining southern provinces to one or two of the remaining factions if Japan isn't fully reunited.

Foreign Influences

Foreign religions still have little impact in Japan. I think it should be very difficult for any religion to flourish there. In fact, I would ask that each province has an event to reverse the first successful conversion.

I was acutally planning to partially addressing this in my next post, but I somehow didn't get it typed up yesterday o

At any rate, I fully agree w/ you that it wouldn't have been very well received by most of the country. Christianity did make some progress in the southern islands (particularly Kyushu), so we could possibly make an exemption there, but I agree w/ the idea for "Conversion Resistance" events. It's an interesting possibility, and one that slipped my mind

Anyway, I was planning on Japan going through a good deal of turmoil ~1700 regardless of what path you ended up taking in-game. In the case of a Japanese Sultanate / Christian Kingdom, that would have entailed a massive Traditionalist uprising; basically, yet another scripted revolter, most northern provinces converting back to Konfucianism, etc. We could possibly handle this something like the Hussites for Bohemia--two separate factions, w/ the player picking which one he wants to lead.

(I'll probably elaborate on the other "1700s revolts" ideas in a later post--too tired to try to put it all down now )

Thanks for pointing out a few things that I missed That's part of why I posted these here in the first place.

Now to coding etc

In your other thread Incompetent had already responded to encourage you to contribute.

To make things easier, I can do all of the coding. Coding is fast for me. What takes a long time os planning the storylines and writing text. Oh, and finding all the connections to other countries, that can take time too. But anyway, the short version of this is that if you send the text descriptions, dates/date periods and an idea of relative outcomes, I can code up for you/us.

Matty

Sounds nifty I'm fairly decent at some of the basic stuff, but I haven't really tried anything major like several-event-long chains. I'll just keep working on things from the conceptual side of things and see how many holes in my ideas you guys can help me plug I've been known to drift a bit past the point of credibility when coming up w/ ahistorical situations, so if you guys see something that you think would obviously never work, don't be afraid to call me on it.

As far as the actual coding side of things goes, my biggest fear is that I might have been a little too overambitious as far as free country tags goes. Even if there are actually enough tags to fit in all of these different "revolters," I don't want to flood the game w/ (possibly) 20+ different tags for Japanese petty states if things could be streamlined a bit.

I know I've gone off the radar for a bit, and that's mostly because I'm waiting for the new map, but I have all my Korea stuff written down on a pad next to me that I'll probably post in the next few days as where I see Korea going. Just so we can work out the points of convergence and whatnot. I'm happy to change parts, but first I'll just post it all.

Sounds nifty I'll probably be working mostly from the Japanese end of things, since I know next to nothing about Korea, so it would be interesting to see how our ideas might mesh.

After my last exam (3 days away)

Lucky! We've practically just started school here... (back in August, and we don't get out 'til late May)

Hopefully we can get Shogun back, too.

Indeed. From what I've read of his posts, he certainly seemed to know his stuff.

 

[Specialist290]

All right, extending things out a tad:

D. "Kotei" Path - Succession War
This assumes that Japan has been successful in maintaining a state w/ a strong Emperor who serves as the guiding hand of the nation. Since under this path Japan has managed to avoid Sengoku, Japan would be about overdue for a little shaking up later in the game.

Let us say that around ~1700 the Emperor dies, leaving behind only daughters (and while female rulers weren't unheard of in Japan, the concept took a major blow after the rather scandalous reign of a certain Empress Koken). Two collateral branches of the Imperial family thus advance their own candidates: Candidate A, the more likely AI choice, tends to be more conservative-minded and a brilliant administrator, but rather lackluster in the other areas. Candidate B, on the other hand, has taken an interest in foreign lands and would be a little more receptive to outside ideas and customs and might even be open to the ideas of exploration and / or colonization; statswise, he'd be a bit of a more well-rounded type. Candidate A would have a closer relation to the ex-Emperor and thus have a better claim on the face of things, but Candidate B would have been the ex-Emperor's "favorite cousin."

Obviously, to keep the challenge aspect up, the penalties for choosing Candidate B would be a lot higher; greater revolt risk for the duration of Candidate A's life, as well as more preset revolts and the chance of being deposed in favor of Candidate A if the rebels take the capital. However, if he managed to survive the succession wars, he might be rewarded with the opportunity to recruit two or three new explorers (and possibly a conquistador; I'd probably cap it at 3E/2C, all appearing during his reign) as well as some large one-time tech investment bonuses in two categories of the player's choice (via event).

E. Tenno / Shogun Path (w/o Foreign Religion) - Tax Revolts and General Unrest
Nothing really major--just a period of higher revolt risk nationwide starting ~1700 and ending ~1750, with a possibility of lessening the effects (and adjusting some sliders) by a few events during that period. Probably could be fleshed out a little more.

F. Foreign Religion Path - Traditional Revolt
As discussed above, the old ways would probably have a very hard time dying out entirely in Japan if the ruling classes ever adopted a new religion. Therefore, to help simulate this, around 1700 or so, as the New Order begins to settle itself in and consolidate its hold, the northern daimyo, still holding onto the old ways, would pool their efforts and launch one last effort to reclaim Japan from "evil foreign influences." Most of the northern provinces would convert back to Confucianism (if converted by the new order), and Japan would be split into two factions--a southern "Loyalist" faction and a northern "Traditional" faction, a la the Hussite Wars in Bohemia.

Naturally, when both are controlled by the AI (or when the human player chooses the Loyalists), the Traditionalists should be given a bit of "help" in order to make it much more difficult for the Loyalists to hold onto power. If the Loyalists manage to defeat the Traditionalists (reduce them down to one province (on the standard map) or less than half of their original provinces (on the new map)), then they inherit them and reunify Japan (although they have to reconvert any "lost" provinces manually again). If the Traditionalists win (under the same conditions), then they inherit the opposing faction and convert most of the remaining provinces back to Confucianism (with the possible exception of Kyushu). If the war drags on long enough and neither side is a clear winner, then there should be the possibility of a "compromise" option to reunite the two under the same faith, but keep Kyushu <whatever> similar to the setup for the Lex Halica (although, again, any "wrong-religion" provinces elsewhere would have to be manually converted).

That should about do it. Feedback is most definitely appreciated.

 

[Shogun 144]

Did somebody ask for a SHOGUN?! *Poof!!!*


Okay all kidding aside I just noticed this thread and I must say that the words said about has touched my heart. I must apologize my extended absence but RL has a big tendency to creep up on me. Mostly because I have no sense of timing.

Anyway I'm going have to print out everything that has been proposed so far but from what I have seen from my once over I am impressed Specialist290 and my hat's off to you. Once I have read in depth I will give my full opinion.

 

[MattyG]

A couple of administrative points.

1. TAGS

There are lots of tags left. Thirty seven currently, and that doesn't include the seven or eight that have been notionally set aside for other eventualities. And if we start to run dry there a a number of tags whose current use is marginal, mostly revolting minors that I have never seen emerge, like Poitou. So, it is very feasible that Japan could have six or so tags assigned for various Daimyos and civil war sides.

2. NEW MAP

Currently stalled. Garbon's PM box is full and I haven't heard anything from him in a long time, despite efforts to contact him. Two months ago he said I'd have the sea zone list "by Friday." Now, obviously this is a big project and lots of things can have come up in his life, but his current silence tells me that the new map/Interregnum 2 might not ever see the light of day ....

Matty

 

[Rhodz]

Update. Last exam has been sat.

I'll post my ideas in a separate thread tomorrow.

 

[Shogun 144]

Okay here is my more indepth opinions on what has been proposed so far, and my own suggestions.


On Korean Intervention:

Well I think that, in keeping with what Rhodz and I were talking about in the last thread I think that Goryeo shouldn't control any land in Japan directly, per se, but through a Japanese puppet. A public face of the occupation if you will. This should be an Ashikaga Shikki (Regency) at game start led by Ashikaga Yoshimochi, the son of the first Shikken, the great Yoshimitsu. Naturally this is going to create some tension, since this is the Ashikaga we are talking about it and they are one ambitious bunch!

On what you proposed about a great rebellion, great idea! Let me propose some fleshing out for you. Okay historically about this time period there was still some lingering unrest in Western Japan. This was because many of the western lords had pledged support to the Southern Court during the Nanboku-cho Wars. Kyushu was a particular hot-zone. So let's focus on that!

Let's say that in this alternate history the Ashikaga are constantly plagued by rebellions in Kyushu, which are usually instigated by Kyoto. They send in Imagawa Sadayo. By game start he has for the most part completed his mission, but Imperial holdouts still remain and his lieutenants look to backstab him. They don't get a chance as he dies from old age in 1420 (at 94! ) and the Ashikaga get to choose between either Ouchi Yoshihiro and Otomo Chikayo. This choice should be the spark that reignites the war between Goryeo and Imperial Japan. Yoshihiro is the better general but he is also ambitious. Chikayo is the better politician, but is not the best general out there. Now in my mind the Ouchi are going to rebel no matter what, and when that happens they appeal to Kyoto. If they decided to help out the rebels then they send the Imperial Army west, led by Yamana Mochitoyo, the heir of the Yamana clan and a talented leader. I'll stop here now, as I have gone overboard.

On the war objectives: Hmm... Like MattyG I have to doubt that Goryeo would ever be able to assimilate Japan into its' culture. I think a better idea would be for Goryeo to gain Japanese culture alongside Korean, but to get to that point the player is going to have to suffer, big time. I also must question the importance of Edo as a war aim for Goryeo. Why Edo? It is nothing more then a tiny fishing village of no importance. Remember in history Edo never became important until Tokugawa Ieyasu made it into his center of operations. Kyoto makes much more sense.

On Sengoku: Hmm... now this is interesting. I think that for our alternative Sengoku we should try to avoid using any of the 'big name' clans from the historical period. Of course feel free to disagree. I would personally love to see the Miyoshi or the Saito as a Central faction, with the Chosokabe or Otomo for a Southern faction. I don't know for an Northern or Eastern faction, since I find I am too fond of the Uesugi and Date. What to do with the Three Unifiers is an interesting question. Ideas?

On Foreign Influence: I understand were you are coming from on this matter Specialist290, but I am not convinced about whether or not such a path is truly historically viable. I'll think about some more and come back to this point at a later time, at which I will also offer my thoughts on the proposed Succession War.

I hope that you find my contributions helpful.

 

[Specialist290]

A bit too much to respond to all at once right now (especially while I'm still trying to process Rhodz's stuff in my head), but regarding Edo: The main reason I suggested it isn't so much for its own importance as a city but rather because it seems to have somehow become the capital of Japan in Interregnum 1 (since Korea holds Kyoto on the standard map). The main idea behind that is that capturing the Tenno's palace would be a rather significant blow to the war effort. We could probably get by w/ changing the city name in that province to Kamakura, though, since I think it's in the same province on the standard map... For Interregnum 2, though, we'll probably need to suggest an alternate capital (again, possibly Kamakura).

I'll think about the rest of it and try to come up w/ a more comprehensive response later.

 

[Shogun 144]

A bit too much to respond to all at once right now (especially while I'm still trying to process Rhodz's stuff in my head), but regarding Edo: The main reason I suggested it isn't so much for its own importance as a city but rather because it seems to have somehow become the capital of Japan in Interregnum 1 (since Korea holds Kyoto on the standard map). The main idea behind that is that capturing the Tenno's palace would be a rather significant blow to the war effort. We could probably get by w/ changing the city name in that province to Kamakura, though, since I think it's in the same province on the standard map... For Interregnum 2, though, we'll probably need to suggest an alternate capital (again, possibly Kamakura).

I'll think about the rest of it and try to come up w/ a more comprehensive response later.

Specialist290,

I understand what the map shows but I have a map of Japan right in front of me here and Kansai Province in EU2 does not contain Kyoto. The Capital is in the EU2 Province of Kanto. The whole EU2 map is pretty badly designed and labeled in Asia. It looks to me that the main Imperial-Ashikaga/Goryeo frontline seems to come up to Harima-no kuni and pieces of Settsu and Tamba-no kuni. Very confusing.

 

[Specialist290]

Ah, thanks for informing me. Sorry about any confusion... To be honest, it's been a while since I've looked at an actual map of Japan that has Kyoto, although there's quite a few in some of the books I have.

 

[Shogun 144]

Oh glad to be of service Specialist290! I used a map of Japan divided along the kuni system that I found in H. Paul Varley's 'The Onin War'. On that subject the kuni system was the division of administration that lasted roughly from the Taiho Reforms in 701 till the 1590s when Toyotomi Hideyoshi abolished the system (a ceremonial gesture as the sengoku daimyo killed it years earlier). The more familiar han system took its place and was solidified by the Tokugawa Bakufu by 1620. It in turn lasted until 1871 when Meiji Tenno passed the decree of hanseki hokan (Return of the Domains) at the request of the hans of Satsuma, Choshu, Tosa, and Hizen.

 

[Specialist290]

Wow. I haven't even studied Japan in nearly that much detail. If I had a little more money, I'd be half-tempted to get that book...

...But I digress. On to discussion!

Well I think that, in keeping with what Rhodz and I were talking about in the last thread I think that Goryeo shouldn't control any land in Japan directly, per se, but through a Japanese puppet. A public face of the occupation if you will. This should be an Ashikaga Shikki (Regency) at game start led by Ashikaga Yoshimochi, the son of the first Shikken, the great Yoshimitsu. Naturally this is going to create some tension, since this is the Ashikaga we are talking about it and they are one ambitious bunch!

On what you proposed about a great rebellion, great idea! Let me propose some fleshing out for you. Okay historically about this time period there was still some lingering unrest in Western Japan. This was because many of the western lords had pledged support to the Southern Court during the Nanboku-cho Wars. Kyushu was a particular hot-zone. So let's focus on that!

Let's say that in this alternate history the Ashikaga are constantly plagued by rebellions in Kyushu, which are usually instigated by Kyoto. They send in Imagawa Sadayo. By game start he has for the most part completed his mission, but Imperial holdouts still remain and his lieutenants look to backstab him. They don't get a chance as he dies from old age in 1420 (at 94! ) and the Ashikaga get to choose between either Ouchi Yoshihiro and Otomo Chikayo. This choice should be the spark that reignites the war between Goryeo and Imperial Japan. Yoshihiro is the better general but he is also ambitious. Chikayo is the better politician, but is not the best general out there. Now in my mind the Ouchi are going to rebel no matter what, and when that happens they appeal to Kyoto. If they decided to help out the rebels then they send the Imperial Army west, led by Yamana Mochitoyo, the heir of the Yamana clan and a talented leader. I'll stop here now, as I have gone overboard.

If I understand it correctly, I think you're proposing something along the lines of this:

-On Imagawa's death, Ashikaga is offered a choice of two generals to replace him, Ouchi and Otomo.
-If Ouchi is chosen, the revolt is postponed for a short period but will be much worse when it does hit, since Ouchi has had time to prepare.
-If Otomo is chosen, Ouchi rebels anyway; smaller rebellion but possibly more dangerous (in that it could strike while the Ashikaga are "weak" and have a lesser general).
-Either way, once Ouchi rebels, he appeals to the Tenno for aid, and if aid is granted, then Yamana appears on the border between Ashikaga and Japan (more properly, the Imperial faction).

On the war objectives: Hmm... Like MattyG I have to doubt that Goryeo would ever be able to assimilate Japan into its' culture. I think a better idea would be for Goryeo to gain Japanese culture alongside Korean, but to get to that point the player is going to have to suffer, big time. I also must question the importance of Edo as a war aim for Goryeo. Why Edo? It is nothing more then a tiny fishing village of no importance. Remember in history Edo never became important until Tokugawa Ieyasu made it into his center of operations. Kyoto makes much more sense.

On Sengoku: Hmm... now this is interesting. I think that for our alternative Sengoku we should try to avoid using any of the 'big name' clans from the historical period. Of course feel free to disagree. I would personally love to see the Miyoshi or the Saito as a Central faction, with the Chosokabe or Otomo for a Southern faction. I don't know for an Northern or Eastern faction, since I find I am too fond of the Uesugi and Date. What to do with the Three Unifiers is an interesting question. Ideas?

No big names: I agree for the most part here. Personally I have a slight preference toward keeping the Shimazu for the Eastern faction, but that's mainly because they were the first faction I ever tried when I started playing Shogun: Total War However, barring that, I'd probably defer to your choices in the matter.

As for replacements for the Northern and Western clans, I haven't really studied much regarding specific clans during the time period, but I've been doing a little research using the Sengoku Biographical Dictionary since I read this post. I figured I'd link to it here in case you'd like to use it yourself.

Three Unifiers: To be honest, I had something fairly straightforward in mind here when I first proposed this--the winning clan (or one of its historical retainers) of the Sengoku would basically "take over" Japan as the new line of Shogun. If we're going to hold fairly strictly to the historical pattern, then I think that a possible interesting twist would be to keep Oda Nobunaga around, but have Akechi Mitsuhide hang on for considerably longer than thirteen days after the assassination If that situation is a little too "out of the ballpark" for the purposes of our history, though, another possibility I'd like to consider is putting Maeda Toshiie or one of his sons somewhere in the picture. Since he died IRL in 1599, which is fairly close to the 1600 end of the Sengoku event sequence, he or one of his sons could possibly take Tokugawa's place. Otherwise, again I don't really have very detailed knowledge about specific individuals during this time period...

On Foreign Influence: I understand were you are coming from on this matter Specialist290, but I am not convinced about whether or not such a path is truly historically viable. I'll think about some more and come back to this point at a later time, at which I will also offer my thoughts on the proposed Succession War.

I'm pretty much aware that this would be a very long-shot idea (and almost impossible for the AI to pull off on its own), but I thought that it would provide some interesting flavor for a player-controlled Japan who managed to pull it off. If it seems to be too improbable, though, we could drop it in favor of a much milder (and somewhat more historically-grounded) approach; instead of converting the faction, just convert the provinces of Kyushu (or at least the one containing Nagasaki), then create some events to increase revolt risk in the affected provinces to simulate "religious unrest" and some to lower the RR back again when the province is converted back (and maybe throw in a non-random revolt as well to keep things interesting).

Incidentally, this raises another point I'd like to discuss: In standard Interregnum, Japan is represented as being Confucian (probably a carryover from standard EU2 through Aberration). However, IRL, Japan was very much Buddhist. Should we change its state religion (and the religion of its provinces) accordingly in the mod?

I hope that you find my contributions helpful.

I appreciated them very much

 

[MattyG]

yes, Japan is Confucian because it was in Aberration and we have done very little with Japan. Changing it is fine with me.

I really like the idea that Korea would not control Japanese territory directly, but instead have a number of protectorate/vassal states that it exercised authority over. In fact, the premise of Korean involvement may have been that it took advantage of yet-another-civil-war and backed one family against another, effectively being 'invited' to Japan.

However, I think it would be more likely that there would be several such states, as they would be easier for the koreans to control. The new map has 21 provinces (not including Ezochi) for Japan. I initially gave 11 to Korea to control. Instead, lets say they start with just one province (a foothold to ensure they presence is not forgotten) and the remaining ten can be divided into three or four regional/family powers.

 

[Rhodz]

Interesting idea. But the more minors we put in, the more likely things will turnj out differently from the storyline we might be building. Has anyone read my thread yet? There's been no comments. Would be nice to figure out where we wanna go.

 

[Incompetent]

Incidentally, this raises another point I'd like to discuss: In standard Interregnum, Japan is represented as being Confucian (probably a carryover from standard EU2 through Aberration). However, IRL, Japan was very much Buddhist. Should we change its state religion (and the religion of its provinces) accordingly in the mod?

Well, there's the question of what we mean by Confucian, which is much wider than what to do with Japan. Personally, I remain to be convinced that this tag has a serious purpose and role in vanilla EU2, beyond 'screw over China to stop them conquering the world'. Well, that motivation is largely gone in Interregnum, so we should consider that it means. Some options:

1. China is genuinely unique from a religious perspective, and needs its own religion to represent this (though Confucian isn't necessarily the best label for province religion...)

2. Use the 'Buddhist' and 'Confucian' tags to represent 'Theravada Buddhism' and 'Mahayana Buddhism' respectively. (This is roughly how it's done in vanilla, with the exception of Vietnam, although the names are wrong.) There's some case for this, as the different divisions of Buddhism may have different political consequences (Mahayana more communitarian, Theravada more individualistic?).

3. There are various oddball countries with unusual religions, but which are sufficiently 'advanced' that we don't want to label them as Pagan (given the massive consequences this has for BB etc). These might be all over the place, eg lingering Zoroastrians in Persia, Shintoism in Japan, a Maya that reforms its own religion, or radicals in Europe creating a 'cult of reason'.

If we go for 1. or 2., we probably shouldn't give either tag any bonus missionaries, as these religions didn't have conversion of others as a state policy. BUT if a Buddhist/Confucian/Hindu state owns provinces in the same family of religions and has good stability etc, they should be able to convert those provinces by event. This is not to represent people actually converting necessarily, but to reflect the fact that these religious divisions weren't quite as life-or-death politically as Christianity vs Islam or Catholic vs Protestant, and eg a 'Confucian' country shouldn't suffer a massive stability penalty just because it has some Buddhist provinces (whereas Christian provinces could be a different matter).


Back to Japan, I don't think it has to be necessarily homogeneous or resistant to conversion. After all, Buddhism came from abroad, and in fact has come in several waves, so that different foreign-origin schools of Buddhism have been influential at different times. Japan has been resistant to outside religious control I think simply because it has remained politically independent for most of its history, and deliberately isolated for a significant part of the EU2 period; but none of this has to be the case in Interregnum. The picture I have is this:

- Traditional indigenous beliefs of the Ainu and perhaps the Japanese themselves, represented by Paganism. These had largely evolved or faded by 1419, so maybe only Hokkaido would be Pagan.

- Shintoism, largely an evolution of these native beliefs, but with a lot of influence from Buddhism and Chinese philosophy. In 1419 this still plays a big part in the lives of many Japanese, and some factions might want to turn it into a state religion to distinguish Japan from other countries.

- Mahayana Buddhism, which arrived in Japan in the 6th century or so. This is the most obvious religion to give the Japanese, but the Japanese are somewhat 'unorthodox' due to syncretism, and the various kinds of Mahayana, some Chinese-origin and some home-grown adaptations, are in any case quite different from the Theravada Buddhism of say Thailand.

- More recent arrivals of Western religions. In real history, this was principally Catholicism from Portuguese and Spanish missionaries. This didn't catch on in a huge way, but we have to remember that Christianity was opposed by authority figures and Japan had a long period of self-imposed isolation to prevent 'contamination' from foreign cultures, so this may reflect a successful attempt on the part of rulers to stamp out Christianity, rather than lack of interest on the part of the Japanese as a whole. Things could have been very different if the Jesuits or Dominicans had managed to convert a ruler, or if a weak and divided Japan had been unable to counteract foreign influences. In Interregnum, it needn't be Catholics who get to Japan first either - maybe Muslims will have some influence there?

I would like it to be possible (not necessarily likely, but in some sense 'supported' by events) for at least three religions to potentially become the state religion of Japan, especially as Interregnum is all about what-ifs - it's all very well to say the historical outcome was the most likely, but unless it was inevitable, we should think about how things could have been different.

 

[Specialist290]

I really like the idea that Korea would not control Japanese territory directly, but instead have a number of protectorate/vassal states that it exercised authority over. In fact, the premise of Korean involvement may have been that it took advantage of yet-another-civil-war and backed one family against another, effectively being 'invited' to Japan.

However, I think it would be more likely that there would be several such states, as they would be easier for the koreans to control. The new map has 21 provinces (not including Ezochi) for Japan. I initially gave 11 to Korea to control. Instead, lets say they start with just one province (a foothold to ensure they presence is not forgotten) and the remaining ten can be divided into three or four regional/family powers.

The Korean "foothold" seems like a nice idea (probably some crucial location in Kyushu--again, Nagasaki immediately pops into mind). However, I'd like to limit the number of factions to three or four at the most:

1. The Imperial faction, controlling the north
2. The Ashikaga faction, controlling most of the south (Shikoku, most of Kyushu, most of the part of Honshu immediately north of the Inland Sea (up to approx. modern day Hyogo Prefecture))
3. A small Korean foothold in Kyushu, around Nagasaki
4. (possibly) An Ouchi revolter that takes over Ashikaga-controlled Kyushu (which then gets absorbed into either the Ashikaga (if the revolt fails) or Japan (if the Ashikaga are crushed, OR after the Ashikaga take over Japan and crush the Ouchi))

Like Rhodz said, I think if we add too many minors at this stage, we run the risk of making things overly complex, especially when we get to putting together the event chains.

Well, there's the question of what we mean by Confucian, which is much wider than what to do with Japan. Personally, I remain to be convinced that this tag has a serious purpose and role in vanilla EU2, beyond 'screw over China to stop them conquering the world'. Well, that motivation is largely gone in Interregnum, so we should consider that it means. Some options:

1. China is genuinely unique from a religious perspective, and needs its own religion to represent this (though Confucian isn't necessarily the best label for province religion...)

2. Use the 'Buddhist' and 'Confucian' tags to represent 'Theravada Buddhism' and 'Mahayana Buddhism' respectively. (This is roughly how it's done in vanilla, with the exception of Vietnam, although the names are wrong.) There's some case for this, as the different divisions of Buddhism may have different political consequences (Mahayana more communitarian, Theravada more individualistic?).

3. There are various oddball countries with unusual religions, but which are sufficiently 'advanced' that we don't want to label them as Pagan (given the massive consequences this has for BB etc). These might be all over the place, eg lingering Zoroastrians in Persia, Shintoism in Japan, a Maya that reforms its own religion, or radicals in Europe creating a 'cult of reason'.

I'm personally inclined towards either 2 or 3.

Back to Japan, I don't think it has to be necessarily homogeneous or resistant to conversion. After all, Buddhism came from abroad, and in fact has come in several waves, so that different foreign-origin schools of Buddhism have been influential at different times. Japan has been resistant to outside religious control I think simply because it has remained politically independent for most of its history, and deliberately isolated for a significant part of the EU2 period; but none of this has to be the case in Interregnum. The picture I have is this:

- Traditional indigenous beliefs of the Ainu and perhaps the Japanese themselves, represented by Paganism. These had largely evolved or faded by 1419, so maybe only Hokkaido would be Pagan.

- Shintoism, largely an evolution of these native beliefs, but with a lot of influence from Buddhism and Chinese philosophy. In 1419 this still plays a big part in the lives of many Japanese, and some factions might want to turn it into a state religion to distinguish Japan from other countries.

- Mahayana Buddhism, which arrived in Japan in the 6th century or so. This is the most obvious religion to give the Japanese, but the Japanese are somewhat 'unorthodox' due to syncretism, and the various kinds of Mahayana, some Chinese-origin and some home-grown adaptations, are in any case quite different from the Theravada Buddhism of say Thailand.

- More recent arrivals of Western religions. In real history, this was principally Catholicism from Portuguese and Spanish missionaries. This didn't catch on in a huge way, but we have to remember that Christianity was opposed by authority figures and Japan had a long period of self-imposed isolation to prevent 'contamination' from foreign cultures, so this may reflect a successful attempt on the part of rulers to stamp out Christianity, rather than lack of interest on the part of the Japanese as a whole. Things could have been very different if the Jesuits or Dominicans had managed to convert a ruler, or if a weak and divided Japan had been unable to counteract foreign influences. In Interregnum, it needn't be Catholics who get to Japan first either - maybe Muslims will have some influence there?

I would like it to be possible (not necessarily likely, but in some sense 'supported' by events) for at least three religions to potentially become the state religion of Japan, especially as Interregnum is all about what-ifs - it's all very well to say the historical outcome was the most likely, but unless it was inevitable, we should think about how things could have been different.

My thoughts exactly (especially the bolded text). Thanks Incompetent.

 

[Rhodz]

I also believe that the Mahayana/Theravada split should be what characterises the two religions Confucian and Buddhist. I've seen it in other mods and it works quite well in preventing China from simply absorbing all of South East Asia. I don't really see any problems with it.

 

[MattyG]

I also believe that the Mahayana/Theravada split should be what characterises the two religions Confucian and Buddhist. I've seen it in other mods and it works quite well in preventing China from simply absorbing all of South East Asia. I don't really see any problems with it.

Not having played other mods, can you fill me in on how this is acheived without additional religious tags?