MattyG said:
We rename 'Confucian' to 'Mahayana' and 'Buddhist' to 'Theravada', and reallocate provinces accordingly (the biggest changes would be making Vietnam and probably Tibet Mahayana, I suppose).
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
We rename 'Confucian' to 'Mahayana' and 'Buddhist' to 'Theravada', and reallocate provinces accordingly (the biggest changes would be making Vietnam and probably Tibet Mahayana, I suppose).
Incompetent said:
What he said. We take out Confucian altogether to make room for Mahayana.
Hey everyone,
Wow lots of activity, lets hope I can keep up eh? Sorry for being gone for so long. Like I said before I have the worst timing in history, and we have had a mouse crises in my house the last few days. This is going to be long and span some posts.
Okay on the Japanese religious issue and I apologize before hand if I am being nitpicky and pedantic:
First off one of the reasons Japan has been resistant to foreign religions has been exactly because the country is, still to this today, largely homogeneous. Not because of so-called 'isolationism'. It is one of those traits of Japan that make it such an oddity in the modern world.
Another thing is about Buddhism. I know this mean seem confusing but the Japanese never accepted continental, that is Chinese, Buddhism. When it landed on Japanese shores the religion was immediately rejected because it wasn't Japanese, and this was far before the Sakoku, the 'Nation in Chains' policy that most people think when they think Japan. What happened was that the Soga clan, one of the greatest noble families in those days, took Buddhism and modified it to fit Shinto beliefs. As a result it was no longer recognizable to the Chinese Buddhists. This is one of the most important things about the Japanese religious world: No religion has ever been accepted in Japan unless it adapts to Shinto. If it will not then, in the Japanese mindset, it is not worth the time to believe in. This was a big problem when Christianity arrived and every convert made was a struggle that cost many lives. Even to this day it is still a struggle. Christianity only managed to survive because the Japanese Church went underground and hid from government authorities until 1946 when SCAP assured them protection. Islam never made any converts. In fact some Muslim merchants did land in Japan during the Sengoku but were decapitated by a group of samurai when they tried to preach their religion. This incident repeated a few times over before the Muslims decided it wasn't worth it anymore. After that Islam has stayed well away from Japan, even to this day.
Anyway what I am trying to point out is that the matter of religion in Japan is very complicated. There was no one state religion because until Meiji Tenno passed a decree creating kokka-shintō or State Shinto which incidentally also banned all non-native religions including Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism (all made concessions to Shinto). However for the purposes of gameplay I think making Mahayana Buddhism the state religion is the best solution. Though I think a note to the player should be included explaining how Japanese Buddhism is unique because of it's syncretic nature with Shinto. Basically it is not really Mahayana Buddhism but the Japanese branches all originally came from it.
This is not say that Japan was never open to new ideas, in fact what most people think of as being Japanese was originally Chinese (like tea ceremony, language, court protocol, and so on). Its just that Japan has always been very big on syncretism and making everything fit the Japanese mold, not Japan adapting to somebody else's mold. Still with me? That's okay I get confused by all of this too.
Continued on Post 2
Wow lots of activity, lets hope I can keep up eh? Sorry for being gone for so long. Like I said before I have the worst timing in history, and we have had a mouse crises in my house the last few days. This is going to be long and span some posts.
Okay on the Japanese religious issue and I apologize before hand if I am being nitpicky and pedantic:
First off one of the reasons Japan has been resistant to foreign religions has been exactly because the country is, still to this today, largely homogeneous. Not because of so-called 'isolationism'. It is one of those traits of Japan that make it such an oddity in the modern world.
Another thing is about Buddhism. I know this mean seem confusing but the Japanese never accepted continental, that is Chinese, Buddhism. When it landed on Japanese shores the religion was immediately rejected because it wasn't Japanese, and this was far before the Sakoku, the 'Nation in Chains' policy that most people think when they think Japan. What happened was that the Soga clan, one of the greatest noble families in those days, took Buddhism and modified it to fit Shinto beliefs. As a result it was no longer recognizable to the Chinese Buddhists. This is one of the most important things about the Japanese religious world: No religion has ever been accepted in Japan unless it adapts to Shinto. If it will not then, in the Japanese mindset, it is not worth the time to believe in. This was a big problem when Christianity arrived and every convert made was a struggle that cost many lives. Even to this day it is still a struggle. Christianity only managed to survive because the Japanese Church went underground and hid from government authorities until 1946 when SCAP assured them protection. Islam never made any converts. In fact some Muslim merchants did land in Japan during the Sengoku but were decapitated by a group of samurai when they tried to preach their religion. This incident repeated a few times over before the Muslims decided it wasn't worth it anymore. After that Islam has stayed well away from Japan, even to this day.
Anyway what I am trying to point out is that the matter of religion in Japan is very complicated. There was no one state religion because until Meiji Tenno passed a decree creating kokka-shintō or State Shinto which incidentally also banned all non-native religions including Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism (all made concessions to Shinto). However for the purposes of gameplay I think making Mahayana Buddhism the state religion is the best solution. Though I think a note to the player should be included explaining how Japanese Buddhism is unique because of it's syncretic nature with Shinto. Basically it is not really Mahayana Buddhism but the Japanese branches all originally came from it.
This is not say that Japan was never open to new ideas, in fact what most people think of as being Japanese was originally Chinese (like tea ceremony, language, court protocol, and so on). Its just that Japan has always been very big on syncretism and making everything fit the Japanese mold, not Japan adapting to somebody else's mold. Still with me? That's okay I get confused by all of this too.
Continued on Post 2
Last edited:
Post 2!
On the replies to my first post:
Yes exactly what I meant Specialist290!
Shimazu is a western clan not eastern. Historically the great western clans like Shimazu, has always been different from neighbors, being more open. For that they were excluded from the government during the Tokugawa years. One of the main reason the western clans supported the Meiji Restoration. But I wander....
Anyway I do agree with you on most points and to note I contributed to the Sengoku Biographical Dictionary. I really like your ideas on the Three Unifiers, even though I don't like Akechi Mitsuhide that much. But to the point there was no gurantees that Hideyoshi would succeed in defeating him. Of course now if 'Monkey' failed then Tokugawa would have defeated Akechi, possibly in alliance with Meada Toshiie. I like your suggestions regarding him too, 'Dog' is one of my favorite Oda generals.
See above. But the reason I wanted to quote this was because I wanted to voice my approval for your second, milder, proposal. I like it and it is plausible and fun.
On the Imperial Succession storyline:
Hoo..... This is certainly an area in which I feel strongly. To start....
Okay while the reign of Koken Tenno was scandalous it didn't actually do any damage to the prospect of female rule in Japan. The way Imperial Succession worked is actually a little a bit complicated before the modern era but to simplify there was no difference made for the sex of the succeeding Tenno. Male or Female it didn't actually matter. However despite this many times in Japanese history a female was chosen for the express purpose of avoiding succession disputes. Suiko Tenno, the first female ruler, was chosen exactly for that reason. What happened with Koken Tenno was that her reign was so wild that Kammu Tenno, her nephew, remarked on whether or not women should rule. This didn't become law, this was just an open-air remark. In fact there was a further two female Tenno after Koken several centuries later. They both inherited by special decree of their fathers'. These were Meisho Tenno (17th Century) and Go-Sakuramachi Tenno (18th and 19th Century). A further note on Go-Sakuramachi is that she was actually the closest Japan came to having a Empress Dowager. She continued to exert power through the time honored use of retirement and then ruling as a Daijo (Retired) Tenno, exerting power over several of her successors.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that despite this precedent during the reign of Meiji Tenno he passed the decree Kōshitsu Tempan in 1889 which officially forbade women from ever inheriting again.
I realize that from the above it appears that I have more say on this matter, but I want to lay that aside for another post. Right now I just wanted to clear up the whole female succession thing.
Thank you for your time.
On the replies to my first post:
Yes exactly what I meant Specialist290!
Shimazu is a western clan not eastern. Historically the great western clans like Shimazu, has always been different from neighbors, being more open. For that they were excluded from the government during the Tokugawa years. One of the main reason the western clans supported the Meiji Restoration. But I wander....
Anyway I do agree with you on most points and to note I contributed to the Sengoku Biographical Dictionary. I really like your ideas on the Three Unifiers, even though I don't like Akechi Mitsuhide that much. But to the point there was no gurantees that Hideyoshi would succeed in defeating him. Of course now if 'Monkey' failed then Tokugawa would have defeated Akechi, possibly in alliance with Meada Toshiie. I like your suggestions regarding him too, 'Dog' is one of my favorite Oda generals.
See above. But the reason I wanted to quote this was because I wanted to voice my approval for your second, milder, proposal. I like it and it is plausible and fun.
On the Imperial Succession storyline:
Hoo..... This is certainly an area in which I feel strongly. To start....
Okay while the reign of Koken Tenno was scandalous it didn't actually do any damage to the prospect of female rule in Japan. The way Imperial Succession worked is actually a little a bit complicated before the modern era but to simplify there was no difference made for the sex of the succeeding Tenno. Male or Female it didn't actually matter. However despite this many times in Japanese history a female was chosen for the express purpose of avoiding succession disputes. Suiko Tenno, the first female ruler, was chosen exactly for that reason. What happened with Koken Tenno was that her reign was so wild that Kammu Tenno, her nephew, remarked on whether or not women should rule. This didn't become law, this was just an open-air remark. In fact there was a further two female Tenno after Koken several centuries later. They both inherited by special decree of their fathers'. These were Meisho Tenno (17th Century) and Go-Sakuramachi Tenno (18th and 19th Century). A further note on Go-Sakuramachi is that she was actually the closest Japan came to having a Empress Dowager. She continued to exert power through the time honored use of retirement and then ruling as a Daijo (Retired) Tenno, exerting power over several of her successors.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that despite this precedent during the reign of Meiji Tenno he passed the decree Kōshitsu Tempan in 1889 which officially forbade women from ever inheriting again.
I realize that from the above it appears that I have more say on this matter, but I want to lay that aside for another post. Right now I just wanted to clear up the whole female succession thing.
Thank you for your time.
Last edited:
Shogun 144 said:
Well Buddhism in China didn't exactly have a monolithic hold on people's beliefs either. The provincereligion model of EU2 works well for the Abrahamic religions, where people generally do follow one of these religions exclusively, but falls down spectacularly for the Eastern ones, so we just have to do the best we can and indicate the 'world religion' that has most influence.
Syncretism is hardly unique to the East, though. Look at the religious beliefs of much of modern-day Africa, for example, even in areas where Christianity or Islam predominates. Is it far-fetched to imagine some Japanese adopting a version of some Western religion that incorporates aspects of Shinto?
Incompetent,
Exactly! Chinese Buddhism had its own unique flavor but for the most part it retained much of its original nature and structure from India. Chinese Buddhism never had to undergo as much radical change as much as it did in Japan. While in the Japanese case Buddhism was not accepted until it forced into a 'marriage' with Shinto in the Chinese case Buddhism was accepted quite easily and changed over time, melding with Confucianism and Daoism in different parts of China as part of natural course. Of course it would be incorrect to say it was all peaceful. The Confucian gentry actively fought the Buddhists for instance.
Syncretism is of course not specific to the East, I am well aware of that. There were several syncretic denominations within the Church that date even within 50 years of John the Apostle's death. These were all condemned as heresy in later years by both decree of Ecumenical Council and by the individual leaders within the Church. Most of them no longer survive. Syncretism is worldwide, I never said that it was a Eastern thing specifically.
On some Japanese taking a western religion and melding it to Shinto.... I don't know really. It was attempted in the early years of the missionary work in Japan but when it came to the status of the Tenno it all broke down. Basically there was (and still is) no way that Christianity could accept a man as divine. Jesus, the God-Man, was the only one and on that matter it broke down. They were willing to go as far as equate the Saints to Kami but on that matter no one budged. The Tokugawa Bakufu then freaked out and drove the few Christians in Japan underground for centuries.
Sorry for being incommunicado for a few days--was visiting a friend. I'll probably respond in a bit more detail later, but for now:
Another reason why I shouldn't post late at night--I get my compass directions mixed up :wacko:
Thanks for enlightening me in this regard.
Hmm... That gives me another idea. I'll work on it a little more later, but I figured I'd throw it out for now to get some preliminary feedback.
In essence, we broaden out the succession to include a female ruler, who could be called Candidate C, as a compromise between our two male candidates. The breakdown would go something like this:
--The less controversial of the two males (Candidate A) will become something of a militarist, and the "focus" of his reign will be to strengthen the defense of the nation against foreign nations (good Military stats, mediocre Admin and Diplomacy) (one-time large Land tech bonus + modest Naval bonus; more centralized, more aristocratic, professional forces (+ Quality))
--The more controversial (Candidate B) will be a bit more outward-looking (in a matter of speaking); the "focus" of his reign will be on extending Japanese influence outward, possibly north into Kamchatka (good Admin, average Diplomacy and Military) (more revolts at start of reign; one-time Trade and Naval bonus; less centralized, slightly more oligarchic; one short-lived Explorer / Conquistador pair, w/ the possibility for more of the latter if southern Kamchatka is settled by Japan)
--Finally, we have the female Candidate C. The "focus" of her reign will be more on internal improvement of the country, w/ the possibility of triggering a "Japanese Renaissance" depending on the choices made during the early part of her reign (excellent Admin, good Diplo, poor Military) (one-time Infra bonus; possibility for higher tech slot (?) )
Each ruler would have at least one "mid-reign crisis," the handling of which would determine the ultimate "outcome" of their reign (certain options would activate or close certain bonuses at certain times). Could probably be handled best through the use of event flags.
Shogun 144 said:
Another reason why I shouldn't post late at night--I get my compass directions mixed up :wacko:
Thanks for enlightening me in this regard.
Hmm... That gives me another idea. I'll work on it a little more later, but I figured I'd throw it out for now to get some preliminary feedback.
In essence, we broaden out the succession to include a female ruler, who could be called Candidate C, as a compromise between our two male candidates. The breakdown would go something like this:
--The less controversial of the two males (Candidate A) will become something of a militarist, and the "focus" of his reign will be to strengthen the defense of the nation against foreign nations (good Military stats, mediocre Admin and Diplomacy) (one-time large Land tech bonus + modest Naval bonus; more centralized, more aristocratic, professional forces (+ Quality))
--The more controversial (Candidate B) will be a bit more outward-looking (in a matter of speaking); the "focus" of his reign will be on extending Japanese influence outward, possibly north into Kamchatka (good Admin, average Diplomacy and Military) (more revolts at start of reign; one-time Trade and Naval bonus; less centralized, slightly more oligarchic; one short-lived Explorer / Conquistador pair, w/ the possibility for more of the latter if southern Kamchatka is settled by Japan)
--Finally, we have the female Candidate C. The "focus" of her reign will be more on internal improvement of the country, w/ the possibility of triggering a "Japanese Renaissance" depending on the choices made during the early part of her reign (excellent Admin, good Diplo, poor Military) (one-time Infra bonus; possibility for higher tech slot (?) )
Each ruler would have at least one "mid-reign crisis," the handling of which would determine the ultimate "outcome" of their reign (certain options would activate or close certain bonuses at certain times). Could probably be handled best through the use of event flags.
Excellent.
Especially that you have picked up that the important element of these dynastic choice is not the ruler poer se but what they represent in terms of the nation you are playing and the direction it takes. It gives not only the strategic game-play structure but also the feel of role playing.
Especially that you have picked up that the important element of these dynastic choice is not the ruler poer se but what they represent in terms of the nation you are playing and the direction it takes. It gives not only the strategic game-play structure but also the feel of role playing.