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Ideas for Reformed in the Alternate Reformation

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Trick is, what do we do with Zwingli and Calvin? Prominent members of the Protestant faith?

And, having accepted this religion, is it's tenents similatr to those of the Reformd Church IRL? Is Reformed still the best religion for Hansa and Scotland, etc...

Perhaps Calvin is the thorn in the side of the Lutheran catholic church, insisting on ever stricter interpretations of the bible. He thus becomes the straw that finally leads the Wittelsbachs to start a pure catholic church with their own Pope.

Then de Carcassone.

Meaty.
 
mikl said:
Trick is, what do we do with Zwingli and Calvin? Prominent members of the Protestant faith?

And, having accepted this religion, is it's tenents similatr to those of the Reformd Church IRL? Is Reformed still the best religion for Hansa and Scotland, etc...

Perhaps Calvin is the thorn in the side of the Lutheran catholic church, insisting on ever stricter interpretations of the bible. He thus becomes the straw that finally leads the Wittelsbachs to start a pure catholic church with their own Pope.

Then de Carcassone.

Meaty.
Click to expand...


So, the Calvin and Zwingli thing will come during the period of Luther as Pope, yes? Pressure on the Church to rform even further? Is Calvin brought in by the Pope as his special advisor, elevated from the priesthood to be Prelate of the Chapel of the Incarnation of the Visitation of the Whateverthethingwasabout?
 
Mmmm...

What I am writing at the moment is the following:

Regardless of whether Luther becomes Pope or not, Calvins ideas create a new civic movement across germany and europe. This is depicted in province-specific events which add some infra and trade add some instability, and an option of the province (only) going reformed.

If Luther is pope, and dies, then the onwer of 399 gets a choice between a conservative italian, or an even more radical frenchman - Jean Calvin.

If the choice is Calvin then the Wittelsbachs go banana and form an anti-pope, but protestantism is alive. Zwingli is dead by now, so we can forget him.
 
Shortly after this posting, mikl and I spoke on the phone for about an hour and nutted out what we refer to as the Final Plan. This Final Plan is the final plan we will make about the Alternative Reformation, at least until we work out a Final Final Plan.

Here we go:

After many years of edging the bishops,cardinals and theologians toward reform within the church, the reformists have 'won', with Luther elected as Pope and protestantism (as we know it) condemned to the dustbin of history.

During Luther's Papacy, however, other ideas emerge, springing from a pastor called jean calvin. Thanks to the printing press and Calvin's home in a mercantile free city like Lubeck, the ideas spread swiftly. A somewhat different form of Calvinism (as we know it) emerges, and spreads to the towns and cities of Europe. This only fuels the ire of the conservatives, who see this as a direct result of these "wiffly, waffly, feel-good reformists". [Reformed religion tag is set, many provinces may convert ...]

So the conservatives begin their campaign to unseat the reformist clique once Luther dies. Closer to the event it become clear that they do not have the numbers, by maybe two votes. They decide to meet instead in Worms and elect their own Pope, condeming the papal election in Rome. The Schism begins.

So, we have Reformed happening before the Protestant tag becomes active (even though here Protestant is just a game name for Reformist Catholic).

Not sure yet how we will handle the Edict of Tolerance ....
 
You should also put out a set of events if a protestant captures the seat of catholic papacy (worms) and if the catholics capture the seat of protestant papacy(rome, obviously) not sure what should happen, but something should happen.
 
This is complicated.

It's a challenge, because the same has been true in the past of "What happens if someone captures Rome or Mecca?" The game parameters don't permit us to easily model 'exceptional' circumstances'.

Quite frankly, I don't want the Schism shut down because certain provinces are owned. We have to accept that, if muslims capture Rome, that the Pope simply relocates somewhere else. I think that, while we use the terms Rome and Worms, that in fact they are simply always somewhere safe, and that whichever countries may or may not exist, there will be a home for the Conservative forces, as well as for the Reformist ones. In the past people have suggested that we sort-of officially relocate where the Pope is, but this creates a potentially ong series of what-if situations with thousands of causational events that give me no joy to consider coding.

I think it better that we just accept that province 399 is representational of wherever that Pope is, whether we're talking about the normal old Pope or the Reformist one.

Did you have something in mind?
 
Well I think it might be appropriate for a side to "win" the schism, this mightn't mean all the countries switch to the other religion, but it could mean that either side becomes more legitimate, and borderline countries might switch sides
 
Don_Quigleone said:
Well I think it might be appropriate for a side to "win" the schism, this mightn't mean all the countries switch to the other religion, but it could mean that either side becomes more legitimate, and borderline countries might switch sides
Click to expand...

I see what you mean. But that, surely, would be true of the standard reformation as well. If the Catholics had won in Germany, that would have left Spain, France, Germany and Italy as Catholic. Would the Dutch, English and Scandinavians have caved in an converted? Or would they have fought for their faith to the last man? Either way, the game does not model that possibility.

That said, this IS a little different. I will give some thought as to how it could be modelled without requiring a lot of events. The trouble is that the triggers don't include the following:

country_religion = { tag = XXX data = YYY }

such that a single event could check to see if there are any Catholics or Protestants remaining amoung the major European states.


It could, however, be done via provinces, as events can check for provincereligion. It could be based that certain provinces (Bayern, Ansbach and Brandenburg) are ALL converted, plus about 5 out of another 10 key capitals. Then the event Defeat of the Conservatives triggers, and all Catholic-tag nations are basically pressured to convert via event (action_a convert, action_b bugger you ). Players, of course, could chose action_b.

Then a mirror event for the Conservative victory.

OK, I'll make it happen. :D
 
Ahmed writes:

"These alternative reformation topics may be is the only ones which I do not read carefully.

But still -

When there is happening some such changes then neiborghood uses them. So may be orthodox and on less scale muslim power uses that haoss, unrest and
uncertainty.
Like supporting some heretics to weaken somebody (some bonus they should get - may be better diplo rating - lower BB?+ some trade +?) May be thay get some refugies (as bonus) if their supported country fails. May be just some failed monarchs them run to them (with some cash)? I do not know - but some bonus should for giving some troops or money...

May be somebody would use this chaoss to invide, like consideration of some
litle deconqista if case or some orthodox would claim some cores for some
specific reasons.

I just think that they would not just sit and not use situation for something..."
 
Hmm, you might be right about it leaving it to the game engine, however it might be suitable to have a set of events to dissolve the antipope if rome is converted back to catholicism, the remaining protestants could then just declare themselves standard protestants
 
OK, here are the three events that can 'conclude' the Schism.

One is generic random, one is located in Bayern province, essentially for whomever conquers Bavaria. The third is a random for any of the Catholic nations which fulfill the requirements.

Note that each of the two victory events then bring into force random events that basically convert most other countries to the triumphant church.

Code: 
# Version 1, through reconciliation


event = {
	id = 203
	random = yes
	trigger = {
		NOT = { event = 851900 }
		NOT = { event = 851950 }
		event = 200
	}
	name = "The Assembly of Cardinals at Amsterdam"
	desc = "With war having characterising the previous century of unresolved dispute between the two sides of the schism, the majority of cardinals, and many archbishops, met in Amsterdam following a decade of ongoing debate over reconciliation. Despite the goodwill which brought the hierarchy of the two churches together, a true recnciliation could not be acheived. Liturgically, they had grown too far apart, and the matter of the Papacy saw no common ground, other than the desire that each side's candidate was the true pope. Unwilling to come from the Assembly empty-handed and genuinely desiring to see the conflict abate, both popes issued an Edict of Tolerance, which enforced within their churches the acceptance of intermarriage, and denounced conflict based on religious grounds."

	action_a = {
		name = "I feel all warm and fuzzy"
		command = { type = flag which = 4 }
	}
}

# Version 2, the Catholics surrender

event = {
	id = 851900
	random = no
	province = 349
	trigger = {
		event = 200
		flag = altref
		religion = protestant
		NOT = { exists = BAY }
		NOT = { exists = BRA }
		countrysize = 10
		atwar = no
		stability = 0
		NOT = { event = 851950 }
	}
	name = "The Capitulation of the False Pope"
	desc = "With the fall of the Wittelsbachs, even the righteousness of the Teutonic Order was not enough to sustain the conservative cardinals and their false papacy. Their elected head (for we cannot refer to him as 'pope') has conceded to the Holy Father and urged all good Catholics to return to the true faith."
	date = { year = 1553 }
	offset = 100
	deathdate = { year = 1820 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Excellent"
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 360 }
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 240 }
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 120 }
		command = { type = ADM which = 1 value = 360 }
		command = { type = MIL which = 1 value = 360 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 349 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 348 }
		command = { type = stability value = 3 }
		command = { type = inflation value = -2 }
	}
}

# Version 3, the surrender of the Reformists

event = {
	id = 851950
	random = yes
	trigger = {
		event = 200
		flag = altref
		religion = catholic
		NOT = { exists = PAP }
		OR = {
			provincereligion = { province = 399 data = catholic }
			AND = {
				provincereligion = { province = 399 data = protestant }
				control = { province = 399 data = -1 }
			}
		}
		OR = {
                        six of ten major capitals are catholic, Mecklenburg, Morbihan, Svealand, Liguria, Savoie, Ulster, Bourgogne, Magyar, Sicily, Lothian.
                }
		countrysize = 10
		NOT = { event = 851900 }
	}
	name = "The Capture of the False Pope"
	desc = "With the fall of the Wittelsbachs, even the righteousness of the Teutonic Order was not enough to sustain the conservative cardinals and their false papacy. Their elected head (for we cannot refer to him as 'pope') has conceded to the Holy Father and urged all good Catholics to return to the true faith."
	date = { year = 1553 }
	offset = 100
	deathdate = { year = 1820 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Excellent"
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 360 }
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 240 }
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 120 }
		command = { type = ADM which = 1 value = 360 }
		command = { type = MIL which = 1 value = 360 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 399 }
		command = { type = stability value = 3 }
		command = { type = inflation value = -2 }
	}
}
 
that seems good, best to keep it simple, also maybe some protestant countries should go reformed in the case of a catholic victory (not sure if catholics should in any way go reformed in a protestant victory)
 
Don_Quigleone said:
that seems good, best to keep it simple, also maybe some protestant countries should go reformed in the case of a catholic victory (not sure if catholics should in any way go reformed in a protestant victory)
Click to expand...

Maybe, but mikl's ideas for Reformed might not work that way. But if they do, then I think we can modify these events.
 
Mikl's ideas for the reformation of the reformed church? Change daily.

However, this is where I think we should be going, for the Reformed Church, for whatever direction the Protestant reformation takes.

Jean Calvin's teachings start at a provincial level, and then rise to take the state. Rather than a series of events which change nations, I would argue for a series of events which change provinces. Players have a chance to change religions too, and the ai must be given a chance to change state religions to Reformed is the capital is Reformed.


event = {
id = 880301
trigger = {
religion = protestant
event = 101
}
random = no
province = 422 #Languedoc
name = "The Reformed Teachings"
desc = "Pastors have been speaking the words of Jean Calvin from the pulpit. They preach an interpretation of the bible that is stricter than even the reformists of Rome, and pay little respect to the Papal leadersip. They also preach the running of local affairs of state, in addition to the affairs of men. This is increasingly accepted by the people and some nobles. What shall we do?"
date = { day = 1 month = october year = 1527 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = october year = 1535 }

action_a = {
name = " This is too far, discourage these priests "
command = { type = revolt which = 422 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 12 value = 1 }
}
action_b = {
name = " Allow their teachings "
command = { type = provincereligion which = 422 value = reformed }
command = { type = DIP which = -1 value = 24 }
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
}
}
event = {
id = 880351
trigger = {
religion = catholic
event = 101
}
random = no
province = 422 #Languedoc
name = "The Reformed Teachings"
desc = "Pastors have been speaking the words of Jean Calvin from the pulpit. They preach an interpretation of the bible that is stricter than even the insidious reformists of Rome. They also preach the running of local affairs of state, in addition to the affairs of men. This is increasingly accepted by the people and some nobles. What shall we do?"
date = { day = 1 month = october year = 1527 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = october year = 1535 }

action_a = {
name = " These are dangerous people, kill these priests "
command = { type = revolt which = 422 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 12 value = 2 }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
}
action_b = {
name = " This is too far, discourage these priests "
command = { type = revolt which = 422 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 12 value = 1 }
}
action_c = {
name = " Allow their teachings "
command = { type = provincereligion which = 422 value = reformed }
command = { type = DIP which = -1 value = 24 }
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
}
}
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Then, for the ai only, a choice to change the state religion to reformed.

Is this enough to leave it random, with these conditions, or do we have to write an event for every state?


event = {
id = 880401
trigger = {
ai = yes
event = 101
provincereligion = { province = -1 data = reformed }
NOT = { religion = reformed }
}
random = yes
name = "The Reformists rule the city "
desc = "Pastors have been speaking the words of Jean Calvin from the pulpit. They have taken over control of the city councils, and the people have welcomed this interpretation of the bible into their homes. The politik choice would be to follow suit"
date = { day = 1 month = october year = 1530 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = october year = 1600 }

action_a = {
name = " Declare for the Reformed Church "
command = { type = religion which = reformed }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
}
action_b = {
name = " This is too far, discourage these priests "
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 12 value = 1 }
}
}
Click to expand...
 
So what does reformed connote? Is it any old western rite christian faith that isn't aligned to the protestant pope or catholic conservatives; or is it a 3rd fully fledged faith led by the followers of jean calvin; or some mix of the two? I'm kinda confused on this point, personally i'd favour the first alternative, mostky because it's more versatile
 
Don_Quigleone said:
So what does reformed connote? Is it any old western rite christian faith that isn't aligned to the protestant pope or catholic conservatives; or is it a 3rd fully fledged faith led by the followers of jean calvin; or some mix of the two? I'm kinda confused on this point, personally i'd favour the first alternative, mostky because it's more versatile
Click to expand...

I might be missing some recent dialogue about this, but my intention is that that 'reformed' means the Reformed church of Jean Calvin IRL, and the Reformed Church of EU2 vanilla. Dead straight.
 
MattyG said:
This is complicated.

It's a challenge, because the same has been true in the past of "What happens if someone captures Rome or Mecca?"....I think that, while we use the terms Rome and Worms, that in fact they are simply always somewhere safe...
Click to expand...

This is a good idea.. I remember a few years ago doing course work reading someone from the 13th Century (not Petrarch but someone he didn't like) talking about how Rome was where the Pope was even if it wasn't actually the city Rome. As a result during the period there are some accounts of Avignon where it is discussed as 'Rome' not 'Avignon' because it was the papal residence. Short story long, we can keep this tradition around for the simplicity of coding without worrying who actually owns Rome.
 
mikl said:
I might be missing some recent dialogue about this, but my intention is that that 'reformed' means the Reformed church of Jean Calvin IRL, and the Reformed Church of EU2 vanilla. Dead straight.
Click to expand...


You are forgetting my ideas about the Free Church movement that started this thread. I think that Don Quig wonders how it works with your events. But we have abandoned the Free Church bit.
 
MattyG said:
You are forgetting my ideas about the Free Church movement that started this thread. I think that Don Quig wonders how it works with your events. But we have abandoned the Free Church bit.
Click to expand...

I thought we had abandoned this Free Church event, but retained it's name. I am half way through doing the Free Church events for every province in Europe. Cut paste, cut paste. Big job. Not sure where MattyG got the time to do the Protestant events. Massive.

Generally, provinces within areas of states like Hansa and Genoa get Reformed as action_a, the rest get it as action_b. The movement originates in Savoy/Occitane, and they will generally all go reformed, as well.

Swabian provinces generally ardent protestant. Bavarian and most eastern provinces ardent catholics.
 
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