IGC 2.0f/Sweden/Vassalage

[Griffon]

Hello all,

quick and dirty question, how do you break/cancel your vassalage to Denmark in IGC 2.0f if you are Sweden?

I send a diplomat to Denmark, but the option is not there. Am I looking at the right place?

Thanks a mucho!

 

[BiB]

U can't declare war at -3 stability. Work up ur way up to -2 and declare war to end the vassalage.

Well, if that's the problem anyway

 

[Doomdark]

There has never been a diplomatic option to end vassalage I think. You have to declare war, which Sweden should be able to do since she starts with stability -2.

 

[Griffon]

got it! thanks guys. Figure it out yestersay. I find it strange though that the "vassalizer" can cancel vassalage but the "vassalee" cannot.

Me thinks that you should be able to and that would give a year CB against you.

jm2c

 

[Savant]

I've been reading about vassalage in a

medieval college history text (published circa 1930's) and to terminate a vassalage was an extraordinary thing - akin to waging active war more than just a "legitimate grudge." SoI think that the need to actually DoW on the granter of the benefice comes closer than a 1 year CB.

 

[Griffon]

cool. thanks

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Play Denmark

Why do all these people want to break the vassalage with Denmark. Play Denmark instead. Not only are your leaders 1/0/1/0 and your armycosts prohibitive, you also get the exceedingly ugly brown map colour on the political screen.... Fortunately, the pleasure of grinding the Swedish rebels into the dust sort of makes up for the shortcomings

To be serious for a moment I seem to detect a Swedish bias on the part of the Paradox-team. Once you have broken your vassalage and survived the initial onslought your excellent leaders, superior generic general stats, cheap armies, many provinces and good location will see the Danish and Russians steamrolled at your pleasure.

 

[juv95hrn]

I do agree that playing sweden seems a bit easy, at least at the "normal" difficulty level. But we do have to remember that historically the Danish never did better than the pre-existing state in 1492. many important statesmen from both nations, Sweden and Denmark, wanted to end the longlasting enmity an co-operate against other nations. Prejudice prevailed and the nations fought on for a long time, the danish picking the shorter straw more often than the swedes therefore, I guess, their more powerful military might in the game.

I incidently annexed Denmark as Sweden in the 1550s on normal difficulty and half of Russia up until 1610 in my first playing of the game since Betatesting it back in the 1900's. I thought it too easy back then and same feeling is here now. Im ready to go to harder settings...

 

[Doomdark]

Once you have broken your vassalage and survived the initial onslought your excellent leaders, superior generic general stats, cheap armies, many provinces and good location will see the Danish and Russians steamrolled at your pleasure.

Sweden only has slighly lower building costs than Denmark, whereas Russia pays virtually nothing for her infantry (and her cavarly is cheap too). The number of provinces is pretty accurate and Sweden's location is actually a strategic nightmare, sandwiched as she is between Russia and Denmark. Considering her low population and large territory, superior leadership is all she has to ensure a historical progress.

Remember that the difficulty a human has playing a country is irrelevant: what matters is that the AI performs historically in the average game. Indeed, developing the IGC we are constantly running "hands-off" games to determine game balance, and Sweden actually performs worse than she should is most games. To an even greater degree this is also true of Denmark, which provides us with an interesting array of choices: Strengthen both Sweden and Denmark, Weaken Russia and Sweden or Strengthen Denmark and weaken Russia.

 

[BiB]

What Doomdark said. Playing Sweden is very easy (any major is anyway) but I don't see the AI do well with Sweden a lot. Denmark does marginally better while Russia tends to be a powerhouse.

 

[unmerged(3310)]

I would have to concur with the previous sentiments in that the ability of a human player to succeed as any of the countries should not be an indicator of how "good" the country is or how powerful. We've all seen the AAR's where an unmentionable tiny country has taken over territory that they would never achieve in history under the guidance of a human player. The hands off games are the key.

 

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by BiB
What Doomdark said. Playing Sweden is very easy (any major is anyway) but I don't see the AI do well with Sweden a lot. Denmark does marginally better while Russia tends to be a powerhouse.

It is just a matter of knowing how to cripple the AI.. But the AI does not know how to cripple another AI.. Got it??

 

[BiB]

Evidently but someone suggested the AI had too good a material to its disposition.

 

[Tue]

Originally posted by Doomdark
Sweden actually performs worse than she should is most games. To an even greater degree this is also true of Denmark, which provides us with an interesting array of choices: Strengthen both Sweden and Denmark, Weaken Russia and Sweden or Strengthen Denmark and weaken Russia

Which route are you taking on this?

Tue

 

[Doomdark]

Which route are you taking on this?

Well, it is a tricky matter, and as seen from the response we have already garnered for IGC 2.0k it is also a very sensitive one...

IGC 2.0k essentially weakens Russia in relation to Sweden (even if Karelia is now Russian). There are now level 3 fortresses in Savolaks and Nyland, representing the pretty powerful historical castles at Viborg and Olofsborg. This, coupled with some leader adjustments seems to take care of the Russo-Swedish part of the problem. Unfortunately, the introduction of some new Swedish leaders could make matters worse for Denmark.

The Danish issues remain to solve. These are the main problems as I see them:

* Norway should be much harder to invade.

* Skåne should remain Danish for a century longer than is usually the case in the game.

* The Danish AI should be much less likely to offer Jylland in return for peace.

* The Danish AI should stop trying to garrison Gotland with 60k troops.

We actually tried adding level 3 fortresses to Östlandet and Trondheim to represent the difficulty of invasion, but this seemed to lead to a severe bleed of Swedish troops, making Russia even more likely to chop off eastern Sweden. The same was true for Skåne.

Since we can't really do anything about the AI, I can only think of the following solutions (which we will try out for IGC 2.1):

* More Danish generals for the first half of the game, especially 1492-1570.

* Improved Danish monarchs.

* Lowered Danish build costs.