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The starting relations between England, France, and Spain seem a bit off. England and Spain are at -140, while France and Spain are only at -100. This gives Spain every incentive to bail out the moment France declares war on England.

Historically, this just didn't happen. Although both England and Spain proved willing to make separate peaces with France pretty quickly, they honored their alliance in this period. There wasn't any cause for English-Spanish tension until much later; I don't see any reason for English-Spanish relations to be much worse than neutral in 1492.

This would also help keep AI England in the game. In an alliance with Spain England will probably have a chance to get off the ground.
 
Checked DiplomaticMatrix.csv

Excellent work, everyone! I can't wait till I can play the IGC myself tomorrow.
(I've got the IGC files, the only thing missing is my copy of EU :( )

In the meantime, I've come up with a small perl script that checks the
diplo matrix for row/column consistency. Let me know if you can use it.

The matrix in IGC 1.8 is okay except for

a) the BRA-BRA entry, which is 5 for some reason while all other entries
on the diagonal are zero.

b) a few ;x; in the END entry, which probably don't matter.


David
 
May I ask something about Greece's diplomatic relations?

Cuz I chose the fantasy option with Greece free in 1492 where some of these numbers seem totally absurd.

Good relations with all other orthodox states are OK, specially with Serbia and Russia (shouldn't there be a RM with Russia in there too? I think one of the Russian kings was married to the niece of the last Byzantine Emperor Konstaninos Paleologos, and that's why Russia claimed to be heir of the Roman Empire)

Anyway, what I can't get is the hatred with P-L. Is it because of Russia? But then why can't it be less, like it is with Sweden, the Teutons and co?

Also why, of all nations in Europe, a special liking for Bavaria and Dennmark? True, the first king appointed to Greece (by the British, French and Russians) in 1833 was Bavarian and after his death in 1864 there was appointed a Danish one, but still this is 1492 we're talking about. Diplomatic relations back then would have nothing to do with two random picks made by the major powers of Europe more than 300 years later than that.

Slightly better relations with Austria, Hungary and the Mamelukes would be a bigger help to the Greek cause instead.

Just my two Drachmas...
 
Italian States

I'm at work so don't have the game handy atm, but I'll look over the starting Italian relations. My first thought though, from playing Genoa and Venice a few times is that starting stabilities should probably be really low, especially in Naples and the papal states. Most of the entire reign of Alexander VI was spent in what was basically a civil war or in wars with Naples. Florence should also be relatively unstable with Pisa having a high revolt risk. Starting relationships, though, hmmm...kinda hard to do with Italy in 1492. Do we want what was accurate at 1492 or at some relatively stable point a bit later (1494-1498 after the Naples question was more hashed out?). Off the top of my head, these are the basic Italian relations in 1492 (I'll check my sources a bit more when I get home and check against the game values also):

Genoa - pretty much an extension of Milan. I think this is modelled already via vassalization. There relations should probably follow Milanease to some extent.

Milan - Friends with the papal states, fairly close to France. RM with papal states if that is possible. Enemies of Naples. Positive with Venice. Indifferent to the other Italian states.

Venice - Negative relations with Papal States, positive with Milan. Negative with other Italian states.

Naples - Spanish vassal, highly unstable as there were 3 forces (France, Spain and Papal states) all trying to control Naples. RM with papal states, florence. Negative relations with papal states and milan and france. Good with spain. Good with Florence.

Papal states - RMs with naples, florence and milan (can papal states do RMs? probably not, but just for the record). Neutral toward france (changed almost monthly). Positive with Milan (probably the best papal states ally). Negative with Spain, Positive with Venice (but not high), Negative with Naples. Highly unstable in 1492 and remained unstable for a number of years as the borgias tried to gain control of the papal states.

Florence - Traditional enemies are Venice. Friends are Naples. Slight positive toward papal states. Friends with France. Negative Spain. Neutral toward others. -1 to 0ish stability unless you can model its northern territories as more chance for revolution. RM with naples and papal states. Should probably start out allied to France.

=== This goes in the leader thread, just collecting my thoughts so I don't forget them ====

A few Italian generals of note. Note, however, that most were condottieri and basically mercenaries, so assigning them a country is tough. For the most part, "Italian league" wars were fought by generals nominally control by the papal states. I'll add some dates and stats when I do a bit more research. Note however, that with the exception of Cesare Borgia and one or two others, they were mostly really bad :)

Cesare Borgia - October 1499 - August 1503. Papal states, current values pretty good.

Juan Borgia (Duke of Gandia) - August 1496 - June 1497. Captain-General of the papal states. He pretty much sucked. Brother of Cesare. He was killed in 1497, some say by his brother, Cesare.

Guidobaldo da Montefeltro (Duke of Urbino) - August 1496 - January 1497 (he lived longer, but this is pretty much it for fighting as he was captured). He was the other big general for the papal states early on and did a campaign with Juan that ended rather disasterously.

Fabrizio Colonna - still deciding where to put him. A good general.

Orsini, Count of Pitigliano - January 1492 - August 1496(?). Papal states captain-general.

Giovanni Sforza - January 1492 - August 1496(?). Husband of Lucrezia Borgia and an inept soldier. Despite his name, a papal states general.

Virgino Orsini - 1492 - ???. Still working the dates. A naples general. Mediocre at best. He is also the Orsini mentioned above, the papal states captain-general, hehe.

The period 1492-1503, at any rate, was one dominated by Cesare Borgia and the papal states. There really aren't any other Italian generals at this time. Well, there are, but they are mostly really bad. Being notworthy for how fast they surrender or how fast they are killed by Cesare. There are some good rulers, however, in Venice, Florence and Milan to counter the papal states.
 
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Why does Holstein hate Denmark so? They start the game off as a vassal of Denmark-Norway, but at horrid relations (-140 or so) and this doesn't get better. They'll break off their vassalhood as quickly as possible and form one of the small german alliances. Since they in reality were annexed in the 1500s, this seems a bit odd.

There are too few wars in Italy! The late 1400s and early 1500s were, after all quite turbulent in that part of the world, with french and spanish interventions. This almost never happens, and a lot of wonderful military leaders sit unused.

EF
 
Why does Holstein hate Denmark so?
Click to expand...

Probably because of their later historical bad relations with Denmark. Although usually annexed by Denmark early on in the game, they often revolt successfully. It can be argued that they should then have a low base relationship with Denmark. However, if you feel strongly that this should not be the case it is a simple matter to fix. It doesn't matter much to me, either way.
 
Endre Fodstad: No offense meant, but You obviously draw Your conclusion on a very small basis of games You played.

The bad relations usually turn to very friendly during only a few years and - as Doomie said - the diploannexation attempt in 1502 is most often successfull. Indeed I intended that. :) Also that it doesn´t work out this way *everytime*. It seems to be much more difficult if You actually play Denmark, but this is a feature of the current engine. As usually only one country is played by a human player, we have to adjust our settings to the AI behaviour.

Hartmann
 
Did not do so in my current game (Very Hard/Furious)... Sweden quite strong in 1560.

Of course, that's only because I, as Russia, have concentrated on collecting every single Russian CB shield I can find. Amusingly, under my alliance and leadership, Moldavia has collected 5 provinces from Poland and now borders me. :)

I want to diplo-annex Ryazan, but they are steadfastly refusing to become my vassal. Does anyone know the techniques required to vassalize stubborn minors who should know better?
 
SWE - DAN relations 1492-1520s

Playing 1.08, IGC 2.0k (norm/norm)

Out of maybe 10 games thru at last 1530s, maybe once did I see SWE break the vassal relationship with DAN before 1520. Usually for the first 20years or so I see DEN/SWE/RUS in wars with <insert power here>. Anyone else seeing similiar results? Historically DAN and SWE had a war or two by 1520 as I recall.

ErrantOne
 
BiB,

Forgot the Vassalships expire thing. In my current version I just commented out the vassage relationship. 1521 is too long imo. I might put the vassal relationship back and have it expire in mid-late 1490s. (need a bit of research to pick exact date).

If SWE starts without being a vassal, (only tried once so far) they declared war on DAN around 1513. which i thought was the coolest thing. I am tired of seeing swe, dan, rus all ganged up on some poor russian enemy. With SWE as ally you can see the DAN troops running across SWE into russia and down south from there. they probably start with 20k troops and all of 20 make it to the fight. ;)

ErrantOne

PS research events... will change it to 1497 for the end of vassalship of SWE to DAN. EU needs a couple SWE - DAN wars in the baltic. :)

SWE
1495 RUS attack Finlind
1497 Hans Crowned King of Sweden
1506-1513 war with DEN
1517 Rebellion in SWE (w/DAN support)
1520 DANs attack SWE. DAN gains political control of SWE. minor peasant revolt in Stockholm area.
1521 Rebellion to DAN rule of SWE by Gustav Vasa
1523 Gustav Vasa proclaimed King of SWE.

Note: in general the Bergslagen minors and merchants were rebellious if any serious issues with trade happened when the DANs were in control of SWE.
 
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On Sweden and Denmark:

Sadly the Sweden and Denmark situation cannot be handled in a historical fashion with the EU engine - the interaction between Union King, Swedish Riksföreståndare and the aristocracies of both nations is too complex.

The many minor wars and rebellions pre- 1521 never resulted in a formal Swedish secession from the Kalmar Union, which IMO makes it just fine that Sweden doesn't rebel til the 1520's.

Danish troops in Astrakhan is silly but so are many of the troop movements in EU - I've seen the Ottomans conquering Pommerania in the 1510's or eEngland capturing Kaffa in the 1490's - that's just the way it is.

I do agree though that a danish diploannexation of Sweden should be highly unlikely. Maybe an Event representing The Stockholm Bloodbath can be added to forestall diploannexation?

Cheers,

Vandelay
 
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