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Hi,
You known how bigger will be the map?, what regions will be represented?, or the idea is to take Imperator Rome map as a base?
You known how bigger will be the map?, what regions will be represented?, or the idea is to take Imperator Rome map as a base?
Am I the only one who thinks pushing the start date back to ~700-900 BC would be better then Imperator 2.0 for a classical age mod? Having Neo-Assyria, Mesopotamia, Ancient Egypt (including the Nubian conquest of Egypt), Ancient Greece at its peak, Greek colonization, Scythia, Ancient Isreal and the formation of the Jewish faith, etc with both the Peloponnesian Wars AND Alexanders conquests happening within the timeframe sounds like a way better setup for a paradox mod then just Rome and Diodachi blobs.
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I mean, I think both ideas of the pre-Persian Empire setup and a post-Persian setup are great ideas, and if you ask me, I really would want to push it back to 600 BC, but not further, so that the rise of the Persian Empire could possibly be simulated, the end of the Archaic period in Greece, right after their colonization had ended, the last years of the Kingdom of Judah, the recent collapse of the Neo-Assyrians leading to conflict over the spares between the Egyptians and Babylonians... there's a lot that I feel like would make 600 the most enthralling of them all, and it just seems more exciting of a start date.
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Oh, and OP, if you want another hand on deck for some things, I don't even know what for, I'm willing to help out. pinnaauctor on discord.
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They're both really good start dates ngl. Imo if I had to pick a date, it'd either be around the Lelantine War or after the Peloponnesian War so I'm happy with the 404 bc date. The stuff between 404 and alexander the great is some of the most interesting stuff in ancient greece. Also, 404 BC is good for the Warring States in China and India, as we can have the Hundred Schools and early hinduism/buddhism
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Better? Not really. It doesn't mean it's not a good idea though. I would prefer post 323 BC era because it's the peak of classical era with iconic players and events that took place across entire Europe while 900-700 BC lacks such iconic content for majority of the region (Gaul, Iberia, Britain, western Africa), but it'd be nice to play as Assyria, Babylon or Egypt.
So why not both? I:R has Invictus (Diadochoi era), Age of Bronze (starts in 2000 BC I believe) and Age of Iron (starts around 700 BC I think) and all of them are cool.
323 BC mod would need a map similar to I:R one (perhaps with China). Basic EUV would probably work as well, though Greek fans would be unhappy with insufficient locations in Greece.
900-700 BC would look best on just Greece/Levant/Nubia/Indus custom map.
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Im biased but Id love to have the United Monarchy
(And the proper Seder Olam chronology)
The plan is to make it a situation akin to the rise of Timur from any greek nation with certain prerequisites, for example the tyrants of Pherai could with their union of Thessaly start it or the Macedonians by... taking over Thessaly, while it would be relatively harder for the southern greeks due to regional alliances
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Would you be open to helping in the chinese area? You seem to be at least somewhat versed in that front
I like the idea, though I am kinda unsure how far it can go in terms of immersion without an actual character system (AKA the main mistake Imperator Rome made by removing even the basic one it had). That said, the economy system of this game looks like an awesome thing on its own.
Secondly, how would the map work out considering EU5 like every EU game will have a revolving, circumnavigable 'global' map? Just wondering. EU4 modders had to work with a quite a lot of bugs and workarounds to create a limited 'single page' map similar to games like CK/Imperator for mods (Imperium Universalis/Westeros Universalis/Japonia Universalis/Fallout etc.) as those settings required.
And finally, since we only get one start date, I wonder what it will be.
Secondly, how would the map work out considering EU5 like every EU game will have a revolving, circumnavigable 'global' map? Just wondering. EU4 modders had to work with a quite a lot of bugs and workarounds to create a limited 'single page' map similar to games like CK/Imperator for mods (Imperium Universalis/Westeros Universalis/Japonia Universalis/Fallout etc.) as those settings required.
And finally, since we only get one start date, I wonder what it will be.
A mod will have to consider that a central part of EU games has been overseas colonization (its a map painter after all) and ending with revolutions. Another consideration is, anything before Bronze Age Collapse and the 4-century long dark age and brutal chaos resulting from that apocalypse is not viable (works much better in CK3 ironically).
So that brings start date to anything between 900 BC (resurgence of Assyrian empire and its rise to the status of world's first great power, reemergence of Greeks from the dark age, start of Phoenician colonial expeditions across entire Mediterranean and Atlantic, emerging states on the Iranian plateau, establishment of first organized kingdoms in Vedic India, feudal kingdom of early China, iron age)
...to 260 BC (last viable start date, Rome and Carthage at each other's throats height of the Mauryan Empire of India, peak of not one but three separate Greek empires, start of consolidation of China)
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And brings the ending date to a wide range of as early as 14 AD (earliest viable end date, ends game with stabilization of the map into a few gigantic empires surrounded by tribes and vassal states), to 250 AD (end of the 'imperial peace' era of the world, collapse or near-collapse of multiple empires even though new ones immediately took their place), or even as late as 1 January 407 AD (beginning of the end of Rome and the 'ancient world' theme as a whole).[/spoiler[
So that brings start date to anything between 900 BC (resurgence of Assyrian empire and its rise to the status of world's first great power, reemergence of Greeks from the dark age, start of Phoenician colonial expeditions across entire Mediterranean and Atlantic, emerging states on the Iranian plateau, establishment of first organized kingdoms in Vedic India, feudal kingdom of early China, iron age)
...to 260 BC (last viable start date, Rome and Carthage at each other's throats height of the Mauryan Empire of India, peak of not one but three separate Greek empires, start of consolidation of China)
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And brings the ending date to a wide range of as early as 14 AD (earliest viable end date, ends game with stabilization of the map into a few gigantic empires surrounded by tribes and vassal states), to 250 AD (end of the 'imperial peace' era of the world, collapse or near-collapse of multiple empires even though new ones immediately took their place), or even as late as 1 January 407 AD (beginning of the end of Rome and the 'ancient world' theme as a whole).[/spoiler[
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The likely start date we have chosen is 404 BC
The "fix" for the circumnavegable map will be just using the EU5 map, but likely removing most sea routes between Europe and the Americas as well as from Asia to them, while yes the Americas are far less known they will mostly be SoPs outside of Mesoamerica and the Andes
Colonisation will likely be made harder or changed to reflect ancient colonization practices
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That feels backwards. A mod focused in antiquity ought to have its own map, to properly depict in depth the world, one that goes from ireland to china would be perfect
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the provinces will very much be changed, but the plan is to at least try to represent the ancient americas right
You can probably afford to cut off portions of North and South America still though.
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imo we don't have a choice. In many areas we don't any names for groups that would've lived there. The entire plains would be empty in 500 bc except maybe caddoans in farthest south. Much of Northern America is untenable to do.
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Sounds workable, given the limits. You could -
- cut off all the sea routes outside the general 'ancient old world' general region (spanning from lets say Iberia/Ireland to Japan and Scandinavia to Ethiopia/Indonesia) as you are already planning to do
- turn everything outside of that zone into wasteland territory (not even empty counties, I mean actual unclickable areas) which might even help performance somewhat lol
- remove all ability to explore or colonize outside of that zone
- add in the Pharaonic Canal (the historically accurate ancient version of Suez Canal) to still maintain the (also historically accurate) ancient east-west ocean trade network, and to allow military vessels through for whoever controls it
With a lot of further tweaks to territory borders to make them not resemble a 14th century map, I'd say that would do it at least for an initial early version of the mod.
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As for colonization, got a few random thoughts -
- early colonization by Phoenicians and then Greeks (both city-state civilizations) almost always resulted in the new colonies turning into a separate city state nation, vassalized or tied to the metropolis for a century or more before becoming fully independent (i.e. new in game tags with every colony); and even the colonies made their own colonies after growing large enough
- that said this big Phoenician/Greek colonial wave era is essentially over by the 404 BC if that is what you choose for the start date, so you can do what Imperator did and represent the creation of remaining few new city-state colonies with event chains/missions
- colonization in the east of Europe (Assyria, Persia, later Hellenistic Greece) was not that common since most cultures were already well established, and when it did happen it was usually either class-based (nobles, merchants and priests come in and push the existing ones into lower ones)
- or for example Greek emperors sometimes building up new cities and planting their soldiers in there (with merchants, priests and nobles following within a decade), and slowly mixing in with locals to create fusion cultures like Graeco-Bactrians or Indo-Greeks and so on, both of which became large kingdoms and empires for a time
- Indian colonization across SE Asia (done by priests and accompanying merchants) happened in the form of older tribes adopting Indian religions and cultural elements while retaining a few small things of their own, then developing into independent new kingdoms and republics centered on their capital cities, and then trading with India and others as independent states
- Roman colonies were all entirely within Roman territory conquered by the republic/empire and were much more systematic (and usually accompanied by rivers of blood and death earlier) - they happened as a mix of government officially planting retired loyal soldiers in a territory on land (in exchange for not paying them good pensions) and building or snatching a local city and environs to give them; movement of rich patricians and their followers from Italy moving out into the provinces to build new estates and cities (Hispania for example, later on many famous emperors came from such families); unemployed plebs losing their homes/farms/workplaces and getting paid by the government to move somewhere; and rapid top-down assimilation of locals into a very heavily Romanized version of their original culture (ubiquitous)
- tribal colonization is still the same as ever - scary horde appears on the horizon/adventuring heroes sense blood and treasure somewhere, gotta form a giant tribal confederation with a big army, and then run straight into someone else's territory with warbands bringing their families along, either forming completely new tribes or retaining original ones (Celtic and later Germanic migrations across Europe, respectively)
- that said this big Phoenician/Greek colonial wave era is essentially over by the 404 BC if that is what you choose for the start date, so you can do what Imperator did and represent the creation of remaining few new city-state colonies with event chains/missions
- colonization in the east of Europe (Assyria, Persia, later Hellenistic Greece) was not that common since most cultures were already well established, and when it did happen it was usually either class-based (nobles, merchants and priests come in and push the existing ones into lower ones)
- or for example Greek emperors sometimes building up new cities and planting their soldiers in there (with merchants, priests and nobles following within a decade), and slowly mixing in with locals to create fusion cultures like Graeco-Bactrians or Indo-Greeks and so on, both of which became large kingdoms and empires for a time
- Indian colonization across SE Asia (done by priests and accompanying merchants) happened in the form of older tribes adopting Indian religions and cultural elements while retaining a few small things of their own, then developing into independent new kingdoms and republics centered on their capital cities, and then trading with India and others as independent states
- Roman colonies were all entirely within Roman territory conquered by the republic/empire and were much more systematic (and usually accompanied by rivers of blood and death earlier) - they happened as a mix of government officially planting retired loyal soldiers in a territory on land (in exchange for not paying them good pensions) and building or snatching a local city and environs to give them; movement of rich patricians and their followers from Italy moving out into the provinces to build new estates and cities (Hispania for example, later on many famous emperors came from such families); unemployed plebs losing their homes/farms/workplaces and getting paid by the government to move somewhere; and rapid top-down assimilation of locals into a very heavily Romanized version of their original culture (ubiquitous)
- tribal colonization is still the same as ever - scary horde appears on the horizon/adventuring heroes sense blood and treasure somewhere, gotta form a giant tribal confederation with a big army, and then run straight into someone else's territory with warbands bringing their families along, either forming completely new tribes or retaining original ones (Celtic and later Germanic migrations across Europe, respectively)
Will be interesting to see how this plays out in EU5, where colonization seems to be an expanded version of colonization in Imperator Rome - centered around land grabs (applicable everywhere from tiny tribes or giant empires, done any way regardless of peaceful integration/colonial settlement/conquest through war), assimilation of POPs, and lots of POP migrations.
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