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Imagine a Victoria 3 with a HOI4 Combat system...

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Victoria 2 17587 After Action Reports (AAR)
elektrizikekswerk said:
So if I enter variables into a formula and some days later enter some other variables into the same formula I have somehow changed the formula? Good to know, I knew my math professor was wrong!
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People do not play games in precise, mathematical formulas. There are tanks in base HOI4 from the get-go that enable quick breakthroughs on the western front. There are not tanks from the get-go that enable quick-breakthroughs on the western front in the Great War mod. Sure, there are ways players can game their way into a breakthrough, but the change to the variables involved, both literally and in the sense of possible inputs, changes the meta of the combat on a scale that the player might as well be interacting with a different system.

As far as I'm concerned that could be any other reason.
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If you genuinely believe that if a group of modders are going to turn their mod into a standalone game and the ability to create mechanics for it from the ground up rather than having to rely on preexisting limitations of the game they've modded doesn't factor into their decision, then I don't know what to say.

Every time I played I had perfect static frontlines on the western front while having at the same time less static ones at the estern front - as it's supposed to be for a WWI game. /edit: I admit, that the last time I played must have been around WtT or maybe MtG, so maybe they screwed it up in the meanwhile.
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When I say the realities of trench warfare, I don't just mean how the frontlines form and shift over the duration of the war. I mean basic limitations of HOI4 that modders have had to bend over backwards to just jury-rig solutions. Division bloat with the way the division designer works encouraging larger and larger divisions as time goes on (something that actually does work well for WW1 but is completely ahistorical for WW2, and, regardless, is a sign of it needing an overhaul), the way casualties are tallied (with the greatest numbers being in encirclements and static fronts only providing comparable numbers with the usage of command points, something totally unsuited to the western front), the fact that there's not much use for a strategic reserve or that you can just keep drawing up active divisions without any economic penalty as long as you have the manpower, or just simply in how trenches are constructed.

And that's not even going into stuff like chemical warfare (excluded from HOI4 for obvious reasons), food shortages and mutinies, the shakeup and restructures of army commands that occurred in the first few months of WW1, most of naval warfare, white peaces and truces, revolutions and ethnic revolts, so on and so forth. Most of these, if they are handled in mods, have to be handled through events instead of mechanics. Saying that a total overhaul mod can model some of these issues so the base mechanics of HOI4 are suited to model all of them is just fallacious.
 
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I think hoi combat would work the best, the problem comes from hoi's frontline mechanic. First off you should have to occupy a province and have troops/mp's currently in it to move a frontline, its silly in hoi that you can just drive around the countryside and capitulate a country. Second it should have Supply system similar to imperator and maybe even a similar unit reinforcement system as well to simulate napoleon's russian army shredding apart.
This would make it so early game forts would create a realistic resistance to occupations and less so approaching the 1900's
Then instead of decreasing the combat width as time goes on i would instead increase the width of the brigades as time goes on to increase the importance of officers
 
CivilizedWastes said:
its silly in hoi that you can just drive around the countryside and capitulate a country
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Rommel basically did this in France with his 7th Panzer Division. Maybe not to an extent how it can be done in the game, but still...
 
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elektrizikekswerk said:
Rommel basically did this in France with his 7th Panzer Division. Maybe not to an extent how it can be done in the game, but still...
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To some extent, yes.

The allies were already losing before Rommel's race to the coast though. The Netherlands had collapsed before the French really reached it. The Belgian defence line had also collapsed and the allies had yet to score a real victory. Also the Germans ruled the skies in 1940. The German infantry poured through the gaping hole in the French line and allowed the Germans to largely bypass the Maginot line. The Norway debacle had really destroyed any idea of allied superiority as the German Navy just naval invaded right under the British noses. Not to mention the French never believed in a real victory. They just wanted to survive the onslaught and sit it out. As soon as the French withdrew from the Rhineland, they knew they couldn't beat Germany head on. So... there were more factors than just a few light tanks driving around.

If it was just the panzers racing to the coast, the allies could've recovered, see Rommel in operation Crusader as an example. There he beat the allied armour initially and tried to cut them off. The Brits pushed on and Rommel withdrew, leaving the Italians surrounded (they would later surrender).
 
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elektrizikekswerk said:
Rommel basically did this in France with his 7th Panzer Division. Maybe not to an extent how it can be done in the game, but still...
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Except that was in a small region I don't think it has many victory points anyways. What I mean is we have can millions of mp garrisons in a state yet we can't even fend off a single cav brigade. You can "occupy" the american and siberian frontier in a just few days and somehow that helps capitulation. Of course it's just something that's gamey and doesn't really make a difference most of time in hoi but it's something that needs to be fixed for non mechanized armies
 
Sparticulous said:
And with imperator pop system. Especially with update for troops to be tied to military so losing troops, kills pops.

ofc vicky 3 can look to vrrp to see how to economy
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You mean what Vicky 2 pop systems does and has done from the beginning in a much more realistic fashion? (Not being sarcastic, IR pop system is grossly inferior, despite V2's being much more complex...).
 
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After what I saw... I mean HOI4, Imperator: Rome I don't want to see Victoria 3. Devs gonna destroy it.
 
They key issue here is that , while Hoi style combat is more suited for ww1 style combat and probably the franco Prussian war as well, it ain't good for either colonial wars or the combat in Europe for the first half of the game. I think combat in provinces is the way to go but with some important changes:
- Introducing a rudimentary supply system so that troops require a link with a supply depot to stay in combat. Encirclement's should be an option, as they definitely happen in the napoleonic wars and the mentioned Franco Prussian war
- Change the way province occupation works with two levels: occupied and controlled. Occupied provinces represent seizing the main logistics hub, while controlled provinces represent a bigger control of the province. Occupation should happen once an army reach a province , allowing you to extend your logistical network with a penalty, while control would take some time to build up but allow pops to work RGO (as currently occupation leave them all jobless) and allow full supply flow.
- Allow supply to also be obtained from provinces, to simulate looting of provinces.
-Attrition should mostly be based on the access to food, with extreme climate conditions being the second reason.
- Combat units should represent regiment sized units, not abstract artillery units. You wouldn't make a 3000 artillery force in RL.
-Combat could have the field removed for the Hoi width combat, with having a soft width limit (limited by the smaller force facing the enemy) and a hard soft width limit to represent the province limit.
- Finally, combat should in general be faster than what is currently is, but get slower with increases of technology.

With all these changes, I think we could get a fair representation of warfare in the time period. Initially you will be incentive to concentrate forces on stacks , as combat is fast and supplies can be obtained from the terrain. However , once armies start getting bigger and combat makes concentration of forces less ideal, the warfare could evolve into what we see in WW1, with the front expanding to make sure you don't get flanked.
 
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I like those changes. One thing I would like to see is occupation/control speed massively increase with better infrastructure (so late-game Germany could seize a province in France in a matter of days, but have to spend a lot of time occupying one in China).
 
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I'd hate to see V3 using HOI4 combat system.

I've tried to play HOI4 but just turned it off and went back to HOI3. The graphics and colours of HOI4 make my eyes bleed.

Maybe I'm just getting too old and should be forcibly retired from gaming.
 
Garuda said:
I'd hate to see V3 using HOI4 combat system.

I've tried to play HOI4 but just turned it off and went back to HOI3. The graphics and colours of HOI4 make my eyes bleed.
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Erm... you do realize that the combat system has nothing to do with the graphics/colours?

Maybe you just expressed yourself somewhat clumsy but according to what you've written the conclusion would be that you don't like the combat system of HoI 4 because of how the game as a whole looks.
Or in other words: If HoI3 used the same combat system as HoI4 you'd be fine with it.

That being said I find it very likely that a hypothetical Vic3 would graphically be closer to HoI4/CK3/I:R than to Vic2/HoI3.
 
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To me the most important aspect the game needs is a proper supply line system for the late game.
Using HoI4's battle system or not, I think that is a must.
 
elektrizikekswerk said:
Maybe you just expressed yourself somewhat clumsy but according to what you've written the conclusion would be that you don't like the combat system of HoI 4 because of how the game as a whole looks.
Or in other words: If HoI3 used the same combat system as HoI4 you'd be fine with it.
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I express myself clumsily all the time.
 
I'd rather see simpler combat that rewards the player who builds an economy that can support a strong military, build such a military and deploys it to the right places without fussing too much over the details.
 
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The question is if the "Move is attack" feature of the HOI games can be good for VIC.

In the trench warfare of course it is really good, but for armies at 1840 or in colonial wars in Africa probably not.

My idea of a perfect combat system for VIC, is "Move is skirmish", and the real battle will happen when you arrive or between the regions if both armies move against each other.

2 Phases combat.

1. Skirmish. Cavalry and light infantry will have a main role in this phase, so if you send and arty division with only regular infantry to escort it will have massive loses before the battle, if you have 1 cavalry per 5 line division you will only suffer a little loses.

This phase will be longer when your cover long distances like in Africa or South America, but in Europe will give less problem specially in plains with railroads.

2. Battle. A common Battle like are the battles in the VIC 2.


Can also have bonus to reduce the enemies skirmishers if you have fortification and are defending, and fort must have an unkeep.

Sturmtruppen can give increased skirmish in late phases
 
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