Improving Burma (new tags, provinces, and more)

[neondt]

For reference, here's Burma as it currently exists in EU4:

Spoiler

The AoW patch saw more provinces and the end of the absurd monolithic 'Shan' nation, splitting it into Ava and 2 of the most powerful Shan states at the time. It also saw an excellent redrawing of province borders. The current provinces reflect the territory of the most powerful Shan states very well. @chatnoir17 did an outstanding job improving the region. I would like to propose a second round of improvements.

Here is my proposed setup:

This setup adds 5 new tags and 6 new provinces, 2 of which are impassible wastelands.

The addition of the Mong Kawng and Hsipaw tags are relatively straightforward; like Mong Yang and Hsenwi they were among the most powerful of the Shan states. Rather than adding new provinces, I've simply split the old nations in half.

Mong Pai represents the plethora of smaller Shan states in the south. The addition of the Shan-culture Mawkmai province slightly increases the overall development and unity of the area. I probably could have drawn the province better, it could extend slightly further west and north.

Kale was a middling Shan state that nevertheless played a part in a lot of the conflicts in the region, including the overthrow of the Ava kingdom. I don't think it belongs as part of either Ava or Mong Yang, so I've given it its own tag. It also makes the shape of Ava more aesthetically pleasing.

Mong Yang remains the largest and most powerful Shan state besides Ava, which I think is appropriate given that they were the driving force behind the anti-Ava coalition.

We could add some flavour to Shan government names; the name of a Shan monarchy is a 'Muang', and its ruler is a 'Saopha'. The exception to this is Ava, which should continue to use 'King' and 'Kingdom'.

Prome was a kingdom that shared a very simular situation to Taungu; subjects to the Ava kings, its governors would periodically seek independence with varying degrees of success, finally breaking free after Ava's defeat by the Shan Confederation. The governor of Prome in 1444 was a descendant of the old Pagan dynasty which ruled the region before the Shan invasion. Prome was conquered by Taungu in the 1540's. I've presented Prome here as a subject of Ava, but it should share its status with Taungu; if we want to say that Taungu's relationship to Ava wasn't strong enough to make it a vassal in EU4, the same should apply to Prome.

The two impassible mountain provinces are Naga Hills in the north and the Arakan Mountains in the south. This splits the Shan states from Assam and Bengal except through the gateway kingdoms of Manipur, Sadiya, and Arakan. @esbear suggested the addition of more mountains in SEA here. The main benefit is to separate the Shan states from the Bengal Sultanate, and show a 'natural' border between India and South-East Asia. The Arakan mountains also serve to break up the very large Kale province. I decided against @esbear 's proposal to also add mountains along the west of Ava's borders; I think they would make it less likely for the Shan states to team up against Ava.

Ava aspired to hegemony over all Burma, and it was the most outwardly powerful kingdom in Burma at the time. It took a coalition of several of the Shan states to finally bring it down. Ava loses Kale in this setup, and I didn't feel it was appropriate to either leave it as a nerf to Ava or to increase the development of its already good provinces. To that end I've added the provinces of Salin and Yamethin, splitting them from the provinces of Ava and Pagan. The goal is to make Ava strong, but not able to stand up to a Shan alliance on its own.

National Ideas for the Ava Kingdom:

AVA_ideas = {
   start = {
       heir_chance = 0.5
       leader_land_shock = 1
   }
   bonus = {
       cavalry_cost = -0.15
   }
   trigger = {
       tag = AVA
   }

   free = yes

   bamarized_kingdom = {
       num_accepted_cultures = 1
   }
   burmese_military_obligation = {
       global_manpower_modifier = 0.15
   }
   absorbing_shan_elite = {
       core_creation = -0.10
   }
   rajadhiraja = {
       vassal_income = 0.20
   }
   noble_categories = {
       prestige = 1
   }
   ava_looting = {
       loot_amount = 0.25
   }
   ava_crush_rebellions = {
       global_unrest = -1
   }
}

Localisation:

 AVA_ideas: "Ava Ideas"
 AVA_ideas_start: "Ava traditions"
 AVA_ideas_bonus: "Ava ideas"
 bamarized_kingdom: "Burmese Hegemony"
 bamarized_kingdom_desc: "The Ava Kingdom relies heavily on a strong understanding of the culture of its neighbours and subject states. This understanding will facilitate their integration into our state."
 burmese_military_obligation: "Burmese Military Obligation"
 burmese_military_obligation_desc: "The subjugated Burmese people in the kingdom shall be obligated to provide military service whenever the Kingdom needs it."
 absorbing_shan_elite: "Absorbing the Shan Elite"
 absorbing_shan_elite_desc: "Integrating the Shan rulers' into our court will make the annexation of their lands progress more smoothly."
 rajadhiraja: "Rajadhiraja"
 rajadhiraja_desc: "The King of Ava is King of Kings, and demands tribute from all the lords of Burma."
 noble_categories: "Categorisation of Nobility"
 noble_categories_desc: "Though only Shan nobility occupy the highest ranks, the old nobility of the Pagan Kingdom can continue to serve so long as they know their place."
 ava_looting: "Loot and Pillage"
 ava_looting_desc: "In times of crisis we must be willing to plunder anything of value to sustain the nation's coffers, no matter if it comes from palaces or monasteries."
 ava_crush_rebellions: "End the Uprisings"
 ava_crush_rebellions_desc: "For too long the Burmese nobility and the Shan chiefs have challenged our authority. We should make harsh examples of any who still dare oppose us."

Also, here's a totally unrelated flavour event for Pegu:

# Dhammazedi

country_event = {
   id = flavor_peg.2
   title = "flavor_peg.EVTNAME2"
   desc = "flavor_peg.EVTDESC2"
   picture = REFORM_eventPicture

   fire_only_once = yes

   trigger = {
       tag = PEG
       has_heir = no
       NOT = {
           is_year = 1492
       }
   }
   mean_time_to_happen = {
       months = 120
   }
   option = {
       name = "flavor_peg.EVTOPTA2"
       define_heir = {
           name = "Dhammazedi"
           dynasty = "Wareru"
           birth_date = 1412.1.1
           adm = 4
           dip = 4
           mil = 3
       }
       add_karma = 20
   }
   option = {
       name = "flavor_peg.EVTOPTB2"
       add_prestige = 10
       define_advisor = {
           skill = 2
           type = theologian
           discount = yes
           name = "Dhammazedi"
       }
   }
}

Localisation:

 flavor_peg.EVTNAME2: "Dhammazedi"
 flavor_peg.EVTDESC2: "As Queen Shin Sawbu had no surviving sons, she looked outside her bloodline for a suitable heir to the Hanthawaddy Kingdom. She nominated not a noble as might be expected, but a humble monk. Dhammazedi had been the Queen's loyal advisor and confidant ever since he had helped her escape from Ava, where she had been presented as a gift to their King by her brother. When Shin Sawbu retired from rulership, Dhammazedi proved himself a capable leader. He led Pegu into a short era of peace and prosperity, as well as pioneering a series of religious reforms characterised by closer adherence to Ceylonese orthodoxy. Following his death he was honoured as a saint and remembered as one of Pegu's most enlightened monarchs."
 flavor_peg.EVTOPTA2: "He shall be the heir to the kingdom."
 flavor_peg.EVTOPTB2: "I'll have a true heir yet, let him continue as an advisor."

Note on flags: The flags I've used for Mong Pai, Kale, and Mong Kawng are placeholders taken from flags representing modern non-Shan people from those regions, and aren't appropriate for representing the 15th Century Shan states. It would be better to design entirely original flags for these nations. I haven't done this myself because I am really bad at graphic design.

In researching this region one very useful source was 'BURMA: SHAN DOMINATION IN THE AVA PERIOD (c. AD 1310–1555)' by Aye Chan.

I'd love to hear any feedback, additional suggestions, or corrections that anyone has to offer, especially from @chatnoir17 or @Trin Tragula.

 

[rho]

If this is being overhauled, I would also very much like it if the Burmese culture group could be re-examined. I am not an expert and could be mistaken, but my understanding is that the current inclusion of Tibetan in the Burman group is based on their linguistic relationship, which is not in line with the current paradigm for culture groups.

And while they're at it, they should also change the map colours of the culture map mode so the Burman and Thai groups are more noticably different colours.

 

[Warial]

If this is being overhauled, I would also very much like it if the Burmese culture group could be re-examined. I am not an expert and could be mistaken, but my understanding is that the current inclusion of Tibetan in the Burman group is based on their linguistic relationship, which is not in line with the current paradigm for culture groups.

And while they're at it, they should also change the map colours of the culture map mode so the Burman and Thai groups are more noticably different colours.

Agreed. Tibetans liguistically are pretty far from Burmese. There's little point to having them in the same group. Anyway, with the addition of a new group the algorithm should assign new colour normally.

 

[neondt]

If this is being overhauled, I would also very much like it if the Burmese culture group could be re-examined. I am not an expert and could be mistaken, but my understanding is that the current inclusion of Tibetan in the Burman group is based on their linguistic relationship, which is not in line with the current paradigm for culture groups.

And while they're at it, they should also change the map colours of the culture map mode so the Burman and Thai groups are more noticably different colours.

I'd like to see this too. Perhaps the 'Tibetan group' could be split off.

 

[AirikrStrife]

In my Tibet thread which details more provinces and countries (and which still are in development) I suggest splitting Burman and Tibetan, with Tibetan consisting of: Tibetan, Bhotia, Ngalop, Kham, Amdo, Bai and Yi

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/tibetan-region-changes.1017810/

 

[AirikrStrife]

Also what is you're take on cultures in Burma? I don't know much about Burma and didn't even know Ava was a shan state. Do you think this should be represented by Ava having Shan as primary culture with Burmese as an accepted culture only?

Also the part there one shan state only has Kachin provinces. From what I understand the northernmost Kachin province is actually a shan state on it's own (asking the question if Kachin shouldn't even be in the game)

I know @Semi-Lobster have written posts about south east asia before.

 

[Warial]

Also what is you're take on cultures in Burma? I don't know much about Burma and didn't even know Ava was a shan state. Do you think this should be represented by Ava having Shan as primary culture with Burmese as an accepted culture only?

Also the part there one shan state only has Kachin provinces. From what I understand the northernmost Kachin province is actually a shan state on it's own (asking the question if Kachin shouldn't even be in the game)

I know @Semi-Lobster have written posts about south east asia before.

Ava wasn't a Shan state. It was Burmese with kings descending from Pagan Kingdom. However, it was defeated by Shan Confederacy in 1527, its ruler was deposed and a son of the ruler of Shan Confederacy was made a new king of Ava. So, at best Ava could be Shan from 1527 onwards.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

TBH there should be several more Tai Mong states, Dehong was the capital of the Shan state Mong Mao and Xishuangbanna/Sibsongpanna was the location of the Mong Chiang Hung (Mueang Ho Kham Chiang Rung). Although both were of course tributaries to the Ming and Qing, they really shouldn't be part of China. Given that Paradox is pretty reluctant to add more OPMs though, they could be added together maybe? Adding them to Hsenwei would be kinda OP.

The Tai people of North West Vietnam (Cao Bang in-game) were also outside the control of the Dai Viet as well, the whole area was a loose collection of Thai tribes that eventually formed the Sip Song Chau Tai (Twelve Thai Cantons) Confederation in the 17th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sip_Song_Chau_Tai

 

[neondt]

Ava wasn't a Shan state. It was Burmese with kings descending from Pagan Kingdom. However, it was defeated by Shan Confederacy in 1527, its ruler was deposed and a son of the ruler of Shan Confederacy was made a new king of Ava. So, at best Ava could be Shan from 1527 onwards.

You're right that Ava was essentially a Burmese kingdom, but for the sake of nuance it's also worth pointing out that even within its 'borders' (i.e. the territory that it actually governed rather than loose vassals and tributaries) there was a lot of Shan nobility who were integrated into the Ava court out of necessity. Political intermarriage between Shan and Burmese elites was extremely common. There was a lot of continuity following Ava's defeat by the Confederation, mostly due to Shan willingness to adapt to Burmese customs, but also due to an existing familiarity with the Shan elite.

TBH there should be several more Tai Mong states, Dehong was the capital of the Shan state Mong Mao and Xishuangbanna/Sibsongpanna was the location of the Mong Chiang Hung (Mueang Ho Kham Chiang Rung). Given that Paradox is pretty reluctant to add more OPMs though, they could be added together maybe? Adding them to Hsenwei would be kinda OP.

Now that we have the Ming tributary system I think it's easier to make a case for removing those provinces from Ming. It's always annoyed me that they have 'Shan' cores, so in the event of Mingplosion they break away as a tiny nation using a tag that is now supposed to represent the Confederacy. I agree that adding them to Hsenwi wouldn't really fit. Maybe a 'Mong Mao' tag could control both provinces.

 

[neondt]

Also what is you're take on cultures in Burma? I don't know much about Burma and didn't even know Ava was a shan state. Do you think this should be represented by Ava having Shan as primary culture with Burmese as an accepted culture only?

Right now Ava actually does have Shan primary culture. I don't think this fits the situation in 1444, though as I pointed out above it wasn't exactly devoid of Shan influence.

Also the part there one shan state only has Kachin provinces. From what I understand the northernmost Kachin province is actually a shan state on it's own (asking the question if Kachin shouldn't even be in the game)

Yeah Mong Kawng is a Shan state, ruling over entirely Kachin provinces (ruling as a minority elite is pretty typical of the Shan states). I don't think Kachin culture should be removed, but it does raise the issue that Kachin culture has no tags associated with it at all.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

You know another annoying part of Burma is the SOUTH, areas of Mon settlement. Currently the layout and culture of the provinces just don't make any sense. Moulmein, Thaton, Martaban, all these cities were MON cities, the Karen were concentrated inland in the country, and never were politically coherent until after the arrival of the British. I would like to see some SERIOUS changes here, Moulmein and Martaban provinces should be Mon culture and a new province cut from the interior of the two provinces could be Karen, but definitely not the coast.

 

[neondt]

You know another annoying part of Burma is the SOUTH, areas of Mon settlement. Currently the layout and culture of the provinces just don't make any sense. Moulmein, Thaton, Martaban, all these cities were MON cities, the Karen were concentrated inland in the country, and never were politically coherent until after the arrival of the British. I would like to see some SERIOUS changes here, Moulmein and Martaban provinces should be Mon culture and a new province cut from the interior of the two provinces could be Karen, but definitely not the coast.

Do you think Karen culture could just be removed entirely, given that they didn't occupy the coast and weren't ever politically relevant? Besides those Pegu provinces there's only Mong Pai left, and one-province cultures with no associated tags are a bit pointless.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I hate to say it, given that I want more detail for Asia but... yes. The Dawna mountain range that dominates modern Kayin State was a backwater of Pegu and Toungoo historically and not politically organized. Like I said, a new province carved out of part of Moulmein and Martaban (and maybe a small part of Sukhothai) could be made to represent the Karen but that would still bring the total Karen culture provinces to 2, and I believe the minimum for a culture to be represented is 3.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I hate to say it, given that I want more detail for Asia but... yes. The Dawna mountain range that dominates modern Kayin State was a backwater of Pegu and Toungoo historically and not politically organized. Like I said, a new province carved out of part of Moulmein and Martaban (and maybe a small part of Sukhothai) could be made to represent the Karen but that would still bring the total Karen culture provinces to 2, and I believe the minimum for a culture to be represented is 3.

I recently noticed that 3 province culture deal, though I haven't seen the official statement on the matter. However I doubt they start removing cultures already inthe game cause of it?

 

[fredrikslicer]

Would be nice to see Ava not being able to form the Shan confederacy considering it was the confederacy that destroyed it

Maybe a Burma immersion pack would do the trick

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Given the scale of the Russian immersion pack, I can see a SEA Immersion pack coming out that covers the whole region (and that will hopefully finally make Indonesia an inland sea)

I recently noticed that 3 province culture deal, though I haven't seen the official statement on the matter. However I doubt they start removing cultures already inthe game cause of it?

I think it's from way back when a lot of people were asking for Sorb/Lusatian culture but WG said that such a culture would only cover Upper and Lower Lusatia, which wasn't enough to justify putting in a new culture. Going through the game, I think other than OPM native tribes in the Americas and Siberia are the only countries with only one culture provinces, everything else seems to be at the minimum, 3.

The Karen and Kayah people can be represented by Burmese Pagans instead, which is not ideal but this is far better historically than having ethnic Mon coastal cities ruled by a scattered mountain tribe.

 

[neondt]

Would be nice to see Ava not being able to form the Shan confederacy considering it was the confederacy that destroyed it

Simple solution to that is to make Ava's primary culture Burmese instead of Shan in 1444. Maybe they could be switched to Shan by event under certain conditions.

Maybe a Burma immersion pack would do the trick

Given the scale of the Russian immersion pack, I can see a SEA Immersion pack coming out that covers the whole region (and that will hopefully finally make Indonesia an inland sea)

So far we've only talked about things appropriate for a free patch (map/setup changes, national ideas), What actual features would be in a SEA DLC? Off the top of my head, maybe something representing the mandala system (concentrate development in your capital, creating massive cities by autonomising and neglecting the periphery), something special for Ayutthaya (something like Japan's isolation mechanic would fit well), and a special mechanic for the spread of Islam in maritime SEA via trade.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

IIRC The Third Rome immersion pack will come with a patch that will introduce, new government types for Russian states, new Russian states, additional religious decisions a well as new provinces. it seems pretty comprehensive, but I could be wrong trying to recall some of these things. It's a fairly big region being affected by the new content so it's not hard to believe the whole of SEA might not be examined.

 

[AirikrStrife]

A Burma immersion pack would be underwhelming and undeserving.

It's interesting how the third rome expansion have caused a lot of request for immersion packs, I think this is a fairly decent way of contuing developing the game for a while, though in short term it would unbalance it. Sooner or later there would need to be some sort of "Art of War" whole world rebalancing to weigh up to the immersion packs and country focusing patches.

However a North-east south-east asia immersion pack would be a strong contender (essentially what wasn't done with east asia after the MoH expansion)

It could cover roughly: Mongolia-Manchuria-Siberia-Xinjiang, Tibet, Indochina and east indies.

 

[neondt]

Here's what I've got for the culture setup atm:

Just a few changes:

• Ava has Burmese primary culture in 1444
• Karen culture is gone, replaced by Mon in Pegu, Shan (Animists, could also be Northern Thai) in Mong Pai
• Split off the 'Tibetan group' from Burman; Burman now only includes Burmese, Arakanese, Chin, and Kachin.

Thoughts on adding Mon to the Burman group? Or should they remain in the 'linguistic' Mon-Khmer group?