Improving Burma (new tags, provinces, and more)

[neondt]

For reference, here's Burma as it currently exists in EU4:

Spoiler

The AoW patch saw more provinces and the end of the absurd monolithic 'Shan' nation, splitting it into Ava and 2 of the most powerful Shan states at the time. It also saw an excellent redrawing of province borders. The current provinces reflect the territory of the most powerful Shan states very well. @chatnoir17 did an outstanding job improving the region. I would like to propose a second round of improvements.

Here is my proposed setup:

This setup adds 5 new tags and 6 new provinces, 2 of which are impassible wastelands.

The addition of the Mong Kawng and Hsipaw tags are relatively straightforward; like Mong Yang and Hsenwi they were among the most powerful of the Shan states. Rather than adding new provinces, I've simply split the old nations in half.

Mong Pai represents the plethora of smaller Shan states in the south. The addition of the Shan-culture Mawkmai province slightly increases the overall development and unity of the area. I probably could have drawn the province better, it could extend slightly further west and north.

Kale was a middling Shan state that nevertheless played a part in a lot of the conflicts in the region, including the overthrow of the Ava kingdom. I don't think it belongs as part of either Ava or Mong Yang, so I've given it its own tag. It also makes the shape of Ava more aesthetically pleasing.

Mong Yang remains the largest and most powerful Shan state besides Ava, which I think is appropriate given that they were the driving force behind the anti-Ava coalition.

We could add some flavour to Shan government names; the name of a Shan monarchy is a 'Muang', and its ruler is a 'Saopha'. The exception to this is Ava, which should continue to use 'King' and 'Kingdom'.

Prome was a kingdom that shared a very simular situation to Taungu; subjects to the Ava kings, its governors would periodically seek independence with varying degrees of success, finally breaking free after Ava's defeat by the Shan Confederation. The governor of Prome in 1444 was a descendant of the old Pagan dynasty which ruled the region before the Shan invasion. Prome was conquered by Taungu in the 1540's. I've presented Prome here as a subject of Ava, but it should share its status with Taungu; if we want to say that Taungu's relationship to Ava wasn't strong enough to make it a vassal in EU4, the same should apply to Prome.

The two impassible mountain provinces are Naga Hills in the north and the Arakan Mountains in the south. This splits the Shan states from Assam and Bengal except through the gateway kingdoms of Manipur, Sadiya, and Arakan. @esbear suggested the addition of more mountains in SEA here. The main benefit is to separate the Shan states from the Bengal Sultanate, and show a 'natural' border between India and South-East Asia. The Arakan mountains also serve to break up the very large Kale province. I decided against @esbear 's proposal to also add mountains along the west of Ava's borders; I think they would make it less likely for the Shan states to team up against Ava.

Ava aspired to hegemony over all Burma, and it was the most outwardly powerful kingdom in Burma at the time. It took a coalition of several of the Shan states to finally bring it down. Ava loses Kale in this setup, and I didn't feel it was appropriate to either leave it as a nerf to Ava or to increase the development of its already good provinces. To that end I've added the provinces of Salin and Yamethin, splitting them from the provinces of Ava and Pagan. The goal is to make Ava strong, but not able to stand up to a Shan alliance on its own.

National Ideas for the Ava Kingdom:

AVA_ideas = {
   start = {
       heir_chance = 0.5
       leader_land_shock = 1
   }
   bonus = {
       cavalry_cost = -0.15
   }
   trigger = {
       tag = AVA
   }

   free = yes

   bamarized_kingdom = {
       num_accepted_cultures = 1
   }
   burmese_military_obligation = {
       global_manpower_modifier = 0.15
   }
   absorbing_shan_elite = {
       core_creation = -0.10
   }
   rajadhiraja = {
       vassal_income = 0.20
   }
   noble_categories = {
       prestige = 1
   }
   ava_looting = {
       loot_amount = 0.25
   }
   ava_crush_rebellions = {
       global_unrest = -1
   }
}

Localisation:

 AVA_ideas: "Ava Ideas"
 AVA_ideas_start: "Ava traditions"
 AVA_ideas_bonus: "Ava ideas"
 bamarized_kingdom: "Burmese Hegemony"
 bamarized_kingdom_desc: "The Ava Kingdom relies heavily on a strong understanding of the culture of its neighbours and subject states. This understanding will facilitate their integration into our state."
 burmese_military_obligation: "Burmese Military Obligation"
 burmese_military_obligation_desc: "The subjugated Burmese people in the kingdom shall be obligated to provide military service whenever the Kingdom needs it."
 absorbing_shan_elite: "Absorbing the Shan Elite"
 absorbing_shan_elite_desc: "Integrating the Shan rulers' into our court will make the annexation of their lands progress more smoothly."
 rajadhiraja: "Rajadhiraja"
 rajadhiraja_desc: "The King of Ava is King of Kings, and demands tribute from all the lords of Burma."
 noble_categories: "Categorisation of Nobility"
 noble_categories_desc: "Though only Shan nobility occupy the highest ranks, the old nobility of the Pagan Kingdom can continue to serve so long as they know their place."
 ava_looting: "Loot and Pillage"
 ava_looting_desc: "In times of crisis we must be willing to plunder anything of value to sustain the nation's coffers, no matter if it comes from palaces or monasteries."
 ava_crush_rebellions: "End the Uprisings"
 ava_crush_rebellions_desc: "For too long the Burmese nobility and the Shan chiefs have challenged our authority. We should make harsh examples of any who still dare oppose us."

Also, here's a totally unrelated flavour event for Pegu:

# Dhammazedi

country_event = {
   id = flavor_peg.2
   title = "flavor_peg.EVTNAME2"
   desc = "flavor_peg.EVTDESC2"
   picture = REFORM_eventPicture

   fire_only_once = yes

   trigger = {
       tag = PEG
       has_heir = no
       NOT = {
           is_year = 1492
       }
   }
   mean_time_to_happen = {
       months = 120
   }
   option = {
       name = "flavor_peg.EVTOPTA2"
       define_heir = {
           name = "Dhammazedi"
           dynasty = "Wareru"
           birth_date = 1412.1.1
           adm = 4
           dip = 4
           mil = 3
       }
       add_karma = 20
   }
   option = {
       name = "flavor_peg.EVTOPTB2"
       add_prestige = 10
       define_advisor = {
           skill = 2
           type = theologian
           discount = yes
           name = "Dhammazedi"
       }
   }
}

Localisation:

 flavor_peg.EVTNAME2: "Dhammazedi"
 flavor_peg.EVTDESC2: "As Queen Shin Sawbu had no surviving sons, she looked outside her bloodline for a suitable heir to the Hanthawaddy Kingdom. She nominated not a noble as might be expected, but a humble monk. Dhammazedi had been the Queen's loyal advisor and confidant ever since he had helped her escape from Ava, where she had been presented as a gift to their King by her brother. When Shin Sawbu retired from rulership, Dhammazedi proved himself a capable leader. He led Pegu into a short era of peace and prosperity, as well as pioneering a series of religious reforms characterised by closer adherence to Ceylonese orthodoxy. Following his death he was honoured as a saint and remembered as one of Pegu's most enlightened monarchs."
 flavor_peg.EVTOPTA2: "He shall be the heir to the kingdom."
 flavor_peg.EVTOPTB2: "I'll have a true heir yet, let him continue as an advisor."

Note on flags: The flags I've used for Mong Pai, Kale, and Mong Kawng are placeholders taken from flags representing modern non-Shan people from those regions, and aren't appropriate for representing the 15th Century Shan states. It would be better to design entirely original flags for these nations. I haven't done this myself because I am really bad at graphic design.

In researching this region one very useful source was 'BURMA: SHAN DOMINATION IN THE AVA PERIOD (c. AD 1310–1555)' by Aye Chan.

I'd love to hear any feedback, additional suggestions, or corrections that anyone has to offer, especially from @chatnoir17 or @Trin Tragula.

 

[gronak]

Here's what I've got for the culture setup atm:

View attachment 266146

Just a few changes:

• Ava has Burmese primary culture in 1444
• Karen culture is gone, replaced by Mon in Pegu, Shan (Animists, could also be Northern Thai) in Mong Pai
• Split off the 'Tibetan group' from Burman; Burman now only includes Burmese, Arakanese, Chin, and Kachin.

Thoughts on adding Mon to the Burman group? Or should they remain in the 'linguistic' Mon-Khmer group?

I see you've made the Tibet group a different colour from the Shan group! Love this, something Paradox has yet to fix which is so easy to do.

As for the culture group question, I would say keep it in the current group. I personally have no idea about the cultures over there, but it would encourage AI to culture convert which is something I love seeing. But then again on the flip side, the Burman nations may not want to invade Mon cultured territories which could mean they forever stay small and then get gobbled by bigger nations. The more I think about it, the better it would seem to go in the Burman group, my love for culture converting needs to be put aside to encourage Burman nations to expand down that coastline so they can stand a chance.

And another thing I love you've added is the impassable mountains! It never made much sense to me why they are not impassable in vanilla, let along not even being mountain terrain.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I'd be in favor of terminating the Mon-Khmer family, already made a post about it in the past. Khmer and Vietnamese should joing up with the Thai, and Mon most likely getting it together with the Burmese group.

 

[neondt]

I see you've made the Tibet group a different colour from the Shan group! Love this, something Paradox has yet to fix which is so easy to do.

That happens automatically when you add a new culture group. The way it is now in vanilla is just an unfortunate accident of the algorithm.

And another thing I love you've added is the impassable mountains! It never made much sense to me why they are not impassable in vanilla, let along not even being mountain terrain.

Yeah I think they help to separate the physical and political regions of Bengal and Burma better.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I know Mong Pai is.... well a Mong but I don't think it should be Shan Thai, I think the area is best left as an animist province with Burmese (instead of Karen) culture. The area was not inhabited by Thais but mostly by Karreni tribes ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karenni_States ).

I mentioned this before in other threads, but IMO any reform of Burma should also be extended to Assam and other extreme Eastern parts of India as well, given their connection to East Asia and, if otherwise they will get completely ignored. I suggest a major restructuring of Assamese culture that could expand through events, but really, Saidya should be Chin, their Bodo-Garo language being closely related to neighbouring "Chin" people such as the Naga.

The Ahom Kingdom is more tricky, in game it is represented as "Assam" but the origin of the Ahom Kingdom was a large retinue of Shan Thais from Mong Mao travelled to Assam and setting up a new kingdom there in the late 13th century. Even with such a large exodus and intermarrying into Tibeto-Burman tribes of the area, there were still not enough ethnic Ahoms to form a majority, the kingdom was therefore very ethnically diverse of Assamese, Hill Tribes, Ahoms, Dravidians, Bengalis etc. The province of "Assam" 566, was the Ahom heartland where the capital Charaideo was located. Eventually in the 17th century the Ahom Kings would become Indianized, become Hindus and adopt Assamese as their language. In 1444 though, I would make the state culture for Assam Shan, I'm not sure about making Assam Shan culture though, because that would reduce the amount of Assamese provinces to under 3.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Since we're on that topic too, the wasteland directly below the Assam was not really impassable at all but home to the Jaintia Kingdom of the Khasi people, an Indianized Mon-Khmer speaking group with their capital in Jaintia Rajbari (now modern Jaintiapur, Bangladesh) who often found themselves with the Bodo-Koch speaking Koch and Kachari Kingdoms. These areas were....really not all that impassable really.

 

[SantoshKashyap]

People have lived in Meghalaya (Megha + Alaya = Abode of Clouds) since neolithic era. Neolithic sites discovered so far are located in areas of high elevation such as in Khasi Hills, Garo Hills and neighboring states. The importance of Meghalaya is its possible role in human history through domestication of rice. It is the homeland mainly of the Khasis, the Jaintias and the Garos. The Garos inhabit western Meghalaya, the Khasis in central Meghalaya, and the Jaintias in eastern Meghalaya. The Khasi, Jaintia, Bhoi, War, collectively known as the Hynniewtrep people predominantly inhabit the districts East of Meghalaya, also known to be one of the earliest ethnic group of settlers in the Indian sub-continent, belonging to the Proto Austroloid Monkhmer race. The Garo Hills is predominantly inhabited by the Garos, belonging to the Bodo family of the Tibeto-Burman race, said to have migrated from Tibet. The Garos prefer to call themselves as Achiks and the land they inhabit, as the Achik-land.

The Khasi, Garo, and Jaintia tribes each had their own kingdoms, until they came under the British administration in the 19th century. Later, the British incorporated Meghalaya into Assam in 1835. The region enjoyed semi-independent status by virtue of a treaty relationship with the British Crown.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Yes, the idea that these areas should be impassable "wastelands" is very anachronistic as the terrain was not impossible to traverse and the main kingdoms of the region (Ahom, Sutiya, Jaintia, Dimasa/Kachari, Kangleipak/Manipur) in the region were all centralized as any of their neighbours. Meghalaya and the surrounding region were a politically transitionary orbit between the influence from the Hindu West and the Taungoo Empire to the East who eventually subjugated the Ahom, Kachari, Manipur Kingdoms in the mid to late 18th century. After their wars with Britain in the 19th century many of them swore fealty to the UK who restored their nominal independence. I think this area, should at least politically, be seen as an extension to Burma and India, and could use some serious rework and would be in the best interest of both regions.

EDITED for bad grammar!

 

[mattd_]

I hope you don't mind but I've used your suggestion as a basis for a burma revamp in my mod (Trying to do a map overhaul for paradox to show them what should be added). I've added everything you suggested (plus an Dagon for pegu and Yawnghwe for Hsipaw). I did try and make the shapes of the provinces slightly nicer looking too. Currently I put Yawnghwe as part of Hsipaw but I believe that area was filled of lots of smaller tribes, so maybe I should put an OPM there? Any reccomendations?

Either way, I hope you don't mind. Thanks for putting so much depth into your explanations into stuff to as it really helped with adding the provinces.

Just give me a shout if there is anything I should change (I've literally only looked at the burma region in game so far so ignore india and the rest of SEA).

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Great Map Mattymooz! The map looks fantastic! You did a really good job of presenting neondt's work and showing that the changes are very doable without making any of the provinces too small.

Hmm I'm reading about the Naga and their history with the Burmese and, while of course the terrain was very rough, the Burmese seemed to have no trouble reprising against Naga raids and vice versa in the 18th century. Perhaps instead of a wasteland the area could be uncolonized? Or would that be too radical of a change?

 

[neondt]

Currently I put Yawnghwe as part of Hsipaw but I believe that area was filled of lots of smaller tribes, so maybe I should put an OPM there? Any reccomendations?

I don't think OPM's are the way to go in that area, even if it might be more 'historical'; Ava shouldn't have free reign to trample the Shan states. Not sure about the quality of that new province but Mong Yang should remain the most powerful of the Shan states.

I'm in two minds about extending the Arakan Mountains so far south. It does represent Mrauk U's relative isolation from the rest of Burma, and it wasn't conquered by Burma until very late in the period. I suppose it does make sense.

I'm not sure if Prome's influence extended that far south. Doesn't matter much but maybe the border could be moved up just enough to disconnect the province from Dagon.

Other than that, great work

 

[Warial]

I'm not sure if Prome's influence extended that far south. Doesn't matter much but maybe the border could be moved up just enough to disconnect the province from Dagon.

Tharrawaddy was a distric of Prome governed by a separate governor, however the governors of Prome and Tharrawaddy were often releated to each other and not once or twice were governors of one transfered to the other and vice versa. Also, The first independent king of Prome Thado Minsaw was governor of Tharrawaddy before he took power in Prome and declared independence. The only real problem with this border is that until November 1446 Tharrawaddy was a part of Hanthawaddy.

In M&T we have it as a separate province for this reason. (@Semi-Lobster sorry for still not responding, if you take a look at what is happening at M&T subforum, then you will know that my spare time is even more limited than before.)

 

[mattd_]

So, I ran an observer game overnight last night and ava died pretty early on, but Hsipaw ended up taking over the region. I think I'll try the OPM and see how that changes it up.

For the part about Prome I was going off of this map. I have no clue if its right but it made the map look slightly more interesting than just making it another squareish shape. I'll move the border further north though if this isn't correct

Spoiler: Reference image

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I don't think OPM's are the way to go in that area, even if it might be more 'historical'; Ava shouldn't have free reign to trample the Shan states. Not sure about the quality of that new province but Mong Yang should remain the most powerful of the Shan states.

I'm in two minds about extending the Arakan Mountains so far south. It does represent Mrauk U's relative isolation from the rest of Burma, and it wasn't conquered by Burma until very late in the period. I suppose it does make sense.

I'm not sure if Prome's influence extended that far south. Doesn't matter much but maybe the border could be moved up just enough to disconnect the province from Dagon.

Other than that, great work

For OPMs, maybe we could put Dehong and Sibsongbanna together to form some sort of abstraction of the 'Chinese' Shan States which would make them at least strong enough (hopefully) to not get destroyed. I would opt for Mong Mao since I believe they were the stronger of the Chinese Shan states. I'm not sure what to do with Sip Song Chau Tai since it can only really be a OPM, it should NOT be a part of Dai Viet though.

Tharrawaddy was a distric of Prome governed by a separate governor, however the governors of Prome and Tharrawaddy were often releated to each other and not once or twice were governors of one transfered to the other and vice versa. Also, The first independent king of Prome Thado Minsaw was governor of Tharrawaddy before he took power in Prome and declared independence. The only real problem with this border is that until November 1446 Tharrawaddy was a part of Hanthawaddy.

In M&T we have it as a separate province for this reason. (@Semi-Lobster sorry for still not responding, if you take a look at what is happening at M&T subforum, then you will know that my spare time is even more limited than before.)

I'll look into it, thanks for you're help though! I know how it is to never have enough time that you need.