Independence movements for large empires

[Don_Quigleone]

Here's an Idea to make life "interesting" for a player run large empire (in excess of 50 territories say) you program a system of events so that a region tries to declare independence something like this, let's say in java, all events will be tiesd to a province in java


1st event: Independence movement in Java

use owned province (a province in java) and have triggers owning all of java , also have trigger not be countries x, y or z (native countries, so it's not core provinces revolting)

dates: all dates but with a high offset

effects: revolt risk in said areas.


2nd event: Nationalism grows

causes, again have it tied to capital province and all provinces there, as well as event 1

dates: all dates but a much lower offset (reasonably high though)


3rd event: Java declares independence

triggers: owning provinces, event 1, X provinces controlled by rebels

Effects: grant independence to java, secede provinces to java. You keep the province all events are tied to


4th event: Reconquest of java

Triggers: control all javanese territories, event 3, exists java

dates: all dates, no offset

effects: inherit java, gain some badboy, or have a choice to make vassal?


5th event: Java fully seperates (if you don't reconquer)

Triggers: event 3, exists java, don't control any provinces there.

effects: secede the province which events are tied to, sleep event 4

dates, again all dates with medium offset


6th event: unrest dies down in java (if theres no independence)

triggers: controlling all territories, event 1,

effects: removes all rr


Anyway this could be used for any region (russia could be reprogammed in this way) and would mainly be for players, also newly independent countries would get an event giving them some goodies (troops and gold) so they have a fighting chance

 

[MattyG]

The key problem with your idea is that it is based on the idea of nationalism, which didn't arise until the 19th century.

I agree that EU2 permits the grow of states to sizes that could not possibly have existed, especially considering the techonology available to operate a large empire and to travel within it.

I wouldn't want us to have nationalism permeating the game, but that doesn't mean we cannot find additional methods for modelling the challenges of running larger empires.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

True, however, it's more to do wit large sprawling empires (particularly colonial ones) that develop, and it's particularly aimed at the 18th century (which is rather bereft of events as it is) which is also a period when you saw certain countries declare independence historically (like Haiti, mexico, brazil) and doesn't even necessarily encompass nationalism, take out nationalism and insert "peasants demand lower taxes" or "bourgeois in colonies demand lower taxes" or "natives revolt" or "warlords resist rule" or "religious sect spreads unrest" (in the case of china at least) and you have pretty much the same thing in game terms. Also this kind of model could be adapted to all sorts of region based events like specific famines, plagues, or any flavour events. I'm mostly trying to think of a way we could fill the dearth of events after 1650, something like this is one way (because by this point most competent players will have managed to amass a large empire for themselves)

 

[MattyG]

But we already have all those events for the New World (Haiti, brazil etc).

Peasant rebellions, for whatever reason, have nothing to do with Independence movements. Peasants were used to be ruled by someone, that is The Way of Things in the peasant world-view. Exchanging one set of rulers for another is not necessarily a gain. So, while they rebel against poor conditions and treatment (or religious repression) it isn't to change regime, but have their demands met.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Hmm, well what other ways are there of making life interesting for the large empire?

 

[MattyG]

We can certainly have (and do already) events that help to fragment an empire, but the premises of nationalism and peasants seeking a regime change are not the right ones.

How about simply that the nobility of (region x ) want to break away?

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I don't particularly care about the reasons, more the mechanics, gameplay before lore is what I've always said, perhaps the reasons should shift depending on your domestic sliders or religion (example, cordoba should have problems with northern spain if the north remains christian), I never intended to frame it within nationalism (that was just convenient), so nobility would work, and it would be pretty easy to mass produce such events especially considering that balance isn't required as it only occurs for large empires

 

[MattyG]

What thresholds will you want to have?

There are only certain kinds of triggers. The key one will be countrysize, of course, but it can't stand alone. Otherwise, a player who wants to avoid the 'noble revolt' events will simply stay below such a threshold. The classic upper threshold is countrysize = 200.

I would urge you to consider carefully the other various triggers, including stability, DP sliders (as you suggested) especially centralization.

I can do the final coding for the events, but I would appreciate you listing the various triggers/levels etc.

The very best command for such events would be the Independence command. However, in order for this to be effective, the event needs to be specific to that country, which means that we would need to create one such event for each country that would rebel. The events would look something like this.

event = {
	id = blah
	random = yes
	country = BAY
	trigger = {
		various relational componenets
		owned = { province = 414 data = -1 }
		owned = { province = 415 data = -1 }
		owned = { province = 416 data = -1 }
		NOT = { exists = BRI }
	}
	name = "Breton Nobles Revolt"
	desc = "Cool text here"

	action_a = {
		name = "Curse them"
		command = { type = independence which = BRI }
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = trigger which = blah2 }
		command = { type = trigger which = blah3 }
		
	}
}

event = {
	id = blah2
	random = no
	country = BRI
	name = "AI_Event"
	desc = "Whatever"
	
	action_a = {
		name = "OK"
		command = { type = INF which = -2 value = 15000 } 
		command = { type = CAV which = -2 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = ART which = -2 value = 15 }
		command = { type = stability value = 6 }
	}
}

event = {
	id = blah3
	random = no
	country = BAY
	name = "Brush the Breton Nobles"
	desc = "Some nice text"

	action_a = {
		name = "OK"
		command = { type = war which = BRI }
	}
}

 

[Don_Quigleone]

That's pretty much exactly it, actually your simplistic version is probably best, less chance for bugs and more difficult, as, let's face it, when you're that big a country you should be able to deal with a country instantaneously declaring independence, also I would have a much lower limit than 200, maybe 100 or 150, maybe the best way would to have it at 100 for centralisation 10 and 300 for centralisation 1 and so have territory go up in increments of 20 for every centralisation,

When it comes to aristocracy and what not, I'd probably leave off, or just make it more likely to come up if you have high (or low as you may have it) aristocracy having an extra event for every level of aristocracy (that way if you aristocracy 1 you only have a possibility of getting one, if you have 10 you can get 10 of them) however whether aristocracy is the one or another domestic policy is more a matter of gameplay and hirosticity, but at the bare minimum you could put in the decentralised raising your territory limit, that way it gives players a chance to trade off probably the best domestic policy (does centralisation have ANY negatives?) to give added stability.

With regard to players staying below the territory limit, well these events aren't for people who are trying to stay small, if you've expanded to size 100 (or 200) chances are you're a player who just wants to expand.

Here's a few things, should these events be available to AI (even if ai almost NEVER expand to these sizes) and also should some revolting nations have lower or higher territory thresholds?

And finally one addition to your events, certain countries should be exempt, example of we had a york revolter, maybe Scotland should be exempt. Also the revolter should recieve some ducats as well, and in some cases a navy.

EDIT: you could increase the number of events for low stability to make it happen more often. Or the entire event sequence could only happen if you're low stab(which happens fairly often if you're big, trust me)

 

[MattyG]

That's pretty much exactly it, actually your simplistic version is probably best, less chance for bugs and more difficult, as, let's face it, when you're that big a country you should be able to deal with a country instantaneously declaring independence, also I would have a much lower limit than 200, maybe 100 or 150, maybe the best way would to have it at 100 for centralisation 10 and 300 for centralisation 1 and so have territory go up in increments of 20 for every centralisation,

Increments of 20 seem good. Kicking in at maybe 50?

When it comes to aristocracy and what not, I'd probably leave off, or just make it more likely to come up if you have high (or low as you may have it) aristocracy having an extra event for every level of aristocracy (that way if you aristocracy 1 you only have a possibility of getting one, if you have 10 you can get 10 of them)

Can't do that. There is no way to increase the chance of getting random events based on anything. Unless these events are not made random, of course, but are keyed for a certain time period and have long offsets:

date = { year = 1650 }
offset = 10000 (about 28 years)
deathdate = { year = 1820 }

Which is probably better, except that it means that each event could only happen once.

however whether aristocracy is the one or another domestic policy is more a matter of gameplay and hirosticity, but at the bare minimum you could put in the decentralised raising your territory limit, that way it gives players a chance to trade off probably the best domestic policy (does centralisation have ANY negatives?) to give added stability.

Well, being highly centralized means that you have a greater chance that a province which is in revolt will break away as an independent country, which is certainly appropriate, and something we are effectively adding to here.

Then, of course, there are several random events which punish you for having high Centralization.

With regard to players staying below the territory limit, well these events aren't for people who are trying to stay small, if you've expanded to size 100 (or 200) chances are you're a player who just wants to expand.

Check.

Here's a few things, should these events be available to AI (even if ai almost NEVER expand to these sizes) and also should some revolting nations have lower or higher territory thresholds?

Not for the ai, it never gets that big anyway. And I don't think certain nations ought to be more suceptible.

And finally one addition to your events, certain countries should be exempt, example of we had a york revolter, maybe Scotland should be exempt. Also the revolter should recieve some ducats as well, and in some cases a navy.

I agree, if we have the events as based on a certain nation, then we can assume that those closer to the apex of power are less likely to challenge it. However, this also means having one event for each country, about each country. Meaning about 100n events (100 x 99 x 98). That's ... too many events.

The only way around this is very careful coding of the triggers. So, if you think that no potential nation within - say - four provinces of the capital of this huge state would revolt, then you'd have to include in your triggers:

trigger = {
		NOT = { owned = { province = 241 data = SCO } }
		NOT = { owned = { province = 241 data = PUR } }
		NOT = { owned = { province = 241 data = EIR } }
		NOT = { owned = { province = 241 data = ENG } }

Which means more work. And it means that the events cannot be so easily cut and paste replicated, because you have to be careful with which nations have this exclusion.

EDIT: you could increase the number of events for low stability to make it happen more often. Or the entire event sequence could only happen if you're low stab(which happens fairly often if you're big, trust me)

Absolutely, low stab is critical.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Here's how you increase probability of an event coming up:

You just put in more than one event that does exactly the same thing, because each random event has the exact same probability of coming up you effectively put up it's probability of coming up by putting in duplicates
example:

If we want it to happen more often if you have high aristocracy you put in ten seperate versions. the first is for aristocracy 10 and under(all), the second is for 9 and under (not aristocracy 9), third is for 8 and under etc.

so if you're 10 there are ten events, if you're 1 there's only 1, so a nation with 10 aristocracy has ten times the chance of getting the event as a nation of aristocracy 1.

also it's pretty easy to exempt scotland, if one of the triggers is for the nation to own territory X then we just add another trigger that says territory X is not owned by scotland, unless individual countries can't be referenced in a random events triggers....

Stab probability can be handled similiarly to dp slider probability

 

[MattyG]

Thanks, but I realise you can make a random event more likely to be chosen by duplicating it.

I was referring to the chance of random events occuring. Johan won't release the details, but playtesting by some forumites a few years ago seems to have established a pretty reliable principle, which is that every 350-450 days the computer gives each country a 50% chance of a random event. There's no way to increase the chance of a random event occuring, is what I meant, not which event might occur.

A nation still gets an average of about 35 - 45 random events each century. So, if you want these revolt/indenpendence events to be more likely to occur overall, then you need to take these events outside of the random event milieu. That's why I was suggesting the events are non-random with long offsets (so they don't all occur in a rush in one period).

Here is the next draft. Note that the larger you get, the less centralized you need to be, or the more aristicractic and the more stable. By countrysize 150, too bad, nothing can prevent the event, unless the region is close to the locus of power.

event = {
	id = 875001
	random = no
	province = 232
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			AND = {
				countrysize = 40
				NOT = { domestic = { type = aristocracy value = 6 } }
				OR = {
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 9 }
						NOT = { stability = 2 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 8 }
						NOT = { stability = 1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 7 }
						NOT = { stability = 0 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 6 }
						NOT = { stability = -1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 5 }
						NOT = { stability = -2 }
					}
				}
			}
			AND = {
				countrysize = 50
				NOT = { domestic = { type = aristocracy value = 7 } }
				OR = {
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 8 }
						NOT = { stability = 2 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 7 }
						NOT = { stability = 1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 6 }
						NOT = { stability = 0 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 5 }
						NOT = { stability = -1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 4 }
						NOT = { stability = -2 }
					}
				}
			}
			AND = {
				countrysize = 60
				NOT = { domestic = { type = aristocracy value = 8 } }
				OR = {
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 7 }
						NOT = { stability = 2 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 6 }
						NOT = { stability = 1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 5 }
						NOT = { stability = 0 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 4 }
						NOT = { stability = -1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 3 }
						NOT = { stability = -2 }
					}
				}
			}
			AND = {
				countrysize = 70
				NOT = { domestic = { type = aristocracy value = 9 } }
				OR = {
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 6 }
						NOT = { stability = 2 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 5 }
						NOT = { stability = 1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 4 }
						NOT = { stability = 0 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 3 }
						NOT = { stability = -1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 2 }
						NOT = { stability = -2 }
					}
				}
			}
			AND = {
				countrysize = 80
				OR = {
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 5 }
						NOT = { stability = 2 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 4 }
						NOT = { stability = 1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 3 }
						NOT = { stability = 0 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 2 }
						NOT = { stability = -1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 1 }
						NOT = { stability = -2 }
					}
				}
			}
			AND = {
				countrysize = 90
				OR = {
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 4 }
						NOT = { stability = 2 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 3 }
						NOT = { stability = 1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 2 }
						NOT = { stability = 0 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 1 }
						NOT = { stability = -1 }
					}
					NOT = { stability = -2 }
				}
			}
			AND = {
				countrysize = 100
				OR = {
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 3 }
						NOT = { stability = 2 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 2 }
						NOT = { stability = 1 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 1 }
						NOT = { stability = 0 }
					}
					NOT = { stability = -1 }
				}
			}
			AND = {
				countrysize = 110
				OR = {
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 2 }
						NOT = { stability = 2 }
					}
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 1 }
						NOT = { stability = 1 }
					}
					NOT = { stability = 0 }
				}
			}
			AND = {
				countrysize = 120
				OR = {
					AND = {
						domestic = { type = centralization value = 1 }
						NOT = { stability = 2 }
					}
					NOT = { stability = 1 }
				}
			}
			AND = {
				countrysize = 130
				NOT = { stability = 2 }
			}
			AND = {
				countrysize = 140
				NOT = { stability = 3 }
			}
			countrysize = 150
		}
		owned = { province = 232 data = -1 }
		NOT = { exists = EIR }
		NOT = { owned = { province = 232 data = SCO } }
	}
	name = "Breton Nobles Revolt"
	desc = "Cool text here"
	date = { year = 1419 }
	offset = 10000
	deathdate = { year = 1720 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Curse them"
		command = { type = independence which = EIR }
		command = { type = casusbelli which = EIR value = 6 }
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 875002 }
		command = { type = war which = BRI }
		
	}
}

event = {
	id = 875002
	random = no
	country = EIR
	name = "AI_Event"
	desc = "Whatever"
	
	action_a = {
		name = "OK"
		command = { type = INF which = -2 value = 25000 } 
		command = { type = CAV which = -2 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = ART which = -2 value = 15 }
		command = { type = galleys which = -1 value = 10 }
		command = { type = cash value = 200 }
		command = { type = manpower value = 10 }
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 9 }
		command = { type = domestic which = land value = 9 }
		command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 9 }
		command = { type = domestic which = quality value = 9 }
		command = { type = stability value = 6 }
	}
}

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Wow... that's some complicated triggering, Anyway you sure 150 is high enough? I mean it might be better at 200, that said if you're at 150 you should be able to deal with this kind of thing, now all we need is playtesting to see what the right offset is to happen at the right frequency, will there be one event per in game country? Either way it should be easy to mass produce these, the only difficult part will be the exemptions, but they can be handled on a case by case basis

Also are there any hard numbers as to the exact effect of offsets?

 

[MattyG]

There is a lengthy article on offsets, but here is the simple version as they relate to these events.

Every time the game restarts, it looks at all events whose timeframes (date = x to deathdate = y ) are relevant. It looks at the offset and calculates the day when it will look to see if the events triggers are fulfilled. If, on that randomly chosen day, the trigger conditions are all met, bingo, the event fires.

So, let's take an event that can trigger between January 1, 1419 and december 10, 1421, with an offset of 10. The only trigger condition is that stability be 0 or less.

From loading, the game will chose a day within the first ten days to look and see if the events trigger conditions are met. If, on that day, the stab is 1, the even doesn't fire, and the computer choses another day in the next ten days to check again.

It also knows each day of the game you are playing when an event's timeframe becomes relevant, of course.

This makes it tricky when dealing with big offsets like 10000, because it won't check very often. (In theory, anyway. It could have chosen day 26 to check and, then day 57 of the next 10000 day cycle and so forth). I have seen offsets of 70000 and the maximum is 99999.

So, an event like this with potentially complex triggers (having countrysize 150+ reduces the trigger to 'automatic') could be troublesome, except that we are planning to have one such event for each non-New-World non-Pagan country. So, I would suspect that for a country of size 100+ they would end up getting one to fire evenry 10 years or so.

We can adjust the offset to whatever we want, but if the offset is really small (say 100) then as soon as the country hits a trigger point (say, size 70 with Aristocracy 8 or less, centralization 6 or more and stab 2 or less) then a rash of these events might happen. Now, if that's what you had in mind, then fine, of course.

In retrospect, I'd be happy to have the offset go down to 1000.

 

[MattyG]

Oh, and guess who's going to be getting this work done ...

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Well I'll do a good bit, I'll fill in exceptions (which are probably the most troublesome),

Problem with an offset of 1000 is that then ALL the events, you're eligible for are almost guaranteed to fire within 3 years, which isn't the intended effect, is it (not to mention it's rather cruel). If we have 5000 then it all happens within 15 years, 10000 it's 30 years, So really we want to get as close as possible to random. If the offset is reset every time you load a new game then it's somewhat more feasible to put in a longer offset, of maybe 20000 (so that they restart every 60 years) the problem with a low offset like 1000 is that a player will fall under a hail of independences within a 3 year period (which is quite short in eu2 terms).

Maybe the best way is this, we put in large offsets (in excess of 30000 say?, that means it resets every 90 years or on reload(which is reasonably often)) However we put in a few duplicates to both increase the probability of it coming up but also conveniently making it so that it can come up more than once per country.

In addition we also put in random versions of each as well, just to give us an added bit of unpredictability.

Oh yeah if you want me to do mindless tedium my email should be in my profile

 

[MattyG]

Well I'll do a good bit, I'll fill in exceptions (which are probably the most troublesome),

If you don't do these events, they won't get done.

Problem with an offset of 1000 is that then ALL the events, you're eligible for are almost guaranteed to fire within 3 years, which isn't the intended effect, is it (not to mention it's rather cruel). If we have 5000 then it all happens within 15 years, 10000 it's 30 years, So really we want to get as close as possible to random. If the offset is reset every time you load a new game then it's somewhat more feasible to put in a longer offset, of maybe 20000 (so that they restart every 60 years) the problem with a low offset like 1000 is that a player will fall under a hail of independences within a 3 year period (which is quite short in eu2 terms).

Not really. First, it is limited by the territory you own. Acquisition of provinces is a gradual process, so they won't all trigger in a three year period, as you have to own province 212 (and EIR not exist) for the Eire Independence event to happen, not to mention exclusion issues.

Plus, the computer choses a date to check. One event is chosen to check for on 10 August 1602, say. It finds you at 140+ provs and with the other conditions met, and fires. You lose Hungary (say) and drop by 5 provinces. Seven weeks later you go up in stability. Then, another of the events had been chosen to check on 2 January 1603, but your conditions have changed when it checks, and the event doesn't fire.

In addition we also put in random versions of each as well, just to give us an added bit of unpredictability.

That could work too.

Oh yeah if you want me to do mindless tedium my email should be in my profile

Yes I do. Once we have agreed on a final verion of the basic events, you can start your tedious work.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Very well, I'll start the mindless tedium, I think we have a good template, I still think a high offset is best as let''s not forget that you might suddenly pass a threshold quite quickly (by diploannexing) however you are right that as countries declare independence you'll be put under the threshold, however it should be possible for a country to become huge, we just want it to be difficult, so a new country declaring independence every time you conquer a new one might be rather annoying to say the least. Anyway when it comes to the issue of offsets I'll leave the final say to you, but I reccomend at putting it high, There'll be so many possible revolters anyway once you reach the threshold that it'll be pretty difficult for you not to get the event, unless you're a big coloniser, actually on that point though we may have been leaving out the new world, should the maya be a revolter? Also should we do it by number of cities (If that's possible) so as to go easier on nations with many trade posts?

Besides that if you email a list of all the countries, a template event, and all the tags, I'll get started, with regard to what countries must be held, we could just take the province list from the province lists for vassal releases, although the one problem is when territory overlaps... although that mightn't be such a problem. I don't really know how to edit descriptions, but I just say we just use one generic description and title for all them.

 

[MattyG]

A couple of quick points.

1. Each event will be triggered off a province, specifically the capital province of that country. We will only use major states, so there will be no overlap.

2. Ensure that the id range leaps by 10 each time, in case we want to add additional events for each cycle, postdate. So, for the Eire events, use 871001 and 871002, then for the next series (say, Hansa, based on province 305) use 871011 and 871012.

3. If you feel that it all might be a bit much, then drop the additional random version. Personally, I don't think it will be, and people will want a challenge.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I don't think the random version will add too much, they won't come up that often if you think about it, the random will just be a duplicate of the normal, what about the offset?

with regard to point one, what constitutes a major or minor state?, anyway if you send me a tag list and where to find the release vassal details, and of course the prototype event I'll get started, also enclose a file with what needs changed for each in case I forget something

Oh yeah two things,
1.your war command was wrong, it says brittany instead of eire.

2. Wouldn't it be better if the events stopped 1820 rather than 1720?