Indian Subcontinent Recommendations

[TheNewCaliph]

Stuff which could be fixed before release:

- Religious diversity in Sindh and removal of Buddhism as a predominant religion there

- Breakdown of the massive Punjab blob into smaller historical areas

- Assamese and Chhattisgarhi cultures being a thing in 1337 (They shouldn't)

- More farmland locations in the Middle Ganges Plain and Bengal

- Saffron not being the spice RGO in Kashmir

- Lack of representation of significant geographical regions such as the Chotanagpur Plateau, Coniferous and Riverine Woodlands in Punjab and the Sundarbans

- Unrealistically high development figures for Northern India

- The Kerala–Socotra sea lane not existing despite being a historically known trade route

- More locations being given natural harbour suitability

- Reworking of the climate and vegetation in the Indus Plain (Incredibly anachronistic and underwhelming. I'll elaborate in later post why)

Stuff which can be added in a later update or DLC:

- Greater location density for many regions (Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, KPK). I do not need to elaborate

- More available trade goods

- Fleshed-out caste system mechanics within the constraints of current moral standards

- Better depiction of decadence and corruption in a Subcontinental context

- Flavour for more cultures and tags


The basis for this post was an earlier Reddit reply of mine. Hopefully this will bring more awareness, and draw in similar requests and hopeful prospects for the region in the game

 

[Fawr]

Some of these feel like you missed explaining why.

Like which religions should be present in Sindh, and why do you think the current split between Hindu and Sammitiya (with a few Sunni) is problematic? Is there a source you are looking at?

 

[Rule Britannia]

Why should current moral standards have any barring on the depiction of the caste system? That seems very anachronistic and would cause absolute havoc if imposed on other aspects of the game such as slavery.

 

[TheNewCaliph]

Some of these feel like you missed explaining why.

Like which religions should be present in Sindh, and why do you think the current split between Hindu and Sammitiya (with a few Sunni) is problematic? Is there a source you are looking at?

Buddhism was in severe decline in the Indus Plain long before the arrival of Muslims in 712, due to both the targeted persecutions of Buddhists and violent acts against monasteries and temples by the invading Alchon Huns, and the loss of official patronage to clerics and religious buildings after the rise of the Hindu Brahmin dynasty. Buddhism in 712 itself was in no way the majority religion of the entire region. It was a significant minority, although mostly followed by townspeople (artisans and merchants) concentrated in urban centres.

During the Umayyad Invasion despite being either supportive to the invasion or ambivalent, thousands of Buddhists were slaughtered particularly in the sacks of the cities of Rohri and Debal. Even after the eventual conquest of Sindh, the situation for them scarcely improved. It is unclear if whether the process was directly forced or out of duress, but there were mass conversions of Buddhists to Islam or Hinduism.

By 1337, Buddhism should be practically non-existent in the region. The religious demographics should be distributed primarily between the larger Hindus (60-65%) and slightly-smaller but quickly growing Sunni Muslims (35-40%). Muslims should be more dominant in urban areas (Manora, Mansura, Sukkur) while Hindus should be widespread across the countryside especially in Nagarparkar. Some few thousand Buddhist pops should be present at best.

Buddhism vanished very quickly across the Subcontinent. This is a very known fact. Even without specific information, it makes zero logical sense for anyone acquainted with the history of Buddhism in the Indian Subcontinent to assume that it somehow managed to survive as the predominant religion in a region that was the first to be affected by Muslim invasions and Islamisation efforts.

As for sources, there is an unfortunate dearth of primary ones. The decline of Buddhism post-Huns is well-recorded and commented on by both Xuanzang in the 7th century (in the direct aftermath of the Hun invasion) and by Al-Beruni in the 11th (Although his description was more general to Western India). The details of the conquest of Sindh and mentions of mass conversions are recorded in the Chachnama (the closest thing to a proper chronicle of Sindh from that time period) and Fath-ul-Buldan. We have Darryl MacLean in the modern era who backs up the collapse of Buddhism in Sindh over time and attributes it to various factors (encouragement by authorities, socioeconomic convenience for urbanites, entrenchment of Hindu vassals and administrators in the rural areas by the Arabs who further weakened Buddhist influence)

 

[TheNewCaliph]

Also, the fact that the chosen school to represent Buddhism in Sindh is Sammitya is nothing short of a woeful anachronism. It had collapsed shortly after its own establishment and had given way to Mahayana

 

[TheNewCaliph]

Why should current moral standards have any barring on the depiction of the caste system? That seems very anachronistic and would cause absolute havoc if imposed on other aspects of the game such as slavery.

It's a very nuanced aspect which has multiple facets, some which might cross certain boundaries for sections of the playerbase. I feel like such a concept should be treaded lightly with, as it is a sensitive and also contemporary (in some ways) problem.

 

[nyetflix2]

- Assamese and Chhattisgarhi cultures being a thing in 1337 (They shouldn't)

I agree but I think you worded this a bit vaguely. I think superior terms would be Kamarupi and Kosali?

 

[TheNewCaliph]

I agree but I think you worded this a bit vaguely. I think superior terms would be Kamarupi and Kosali?

Yes. Assamese should be split into Kamarupi and Ahom. Chhattisgarhi should be broken into Kosali for the parts that were controlled by the polity and and few outlying locations, and Gond for the remaining

 

[nyetflix2]

Yes. Assamese should be split into Kamarupi and Ahom. Chhattisgarhi should be broken into Kosali for the parts that were controlled by the polity and and few outlying locations, and Gond for the remaining

Well Gond is already in the game, Ahom was but was replaced by Tai Nüa (a dialect of Shan) after feedback. We'll see if they add a separate Ahom culture back in.

By the way, to me it seems Gujarat, Rajasthan, Sindh and Maharashtra are the regions most in need of more locations now.

 

[TheNewCaliph]

Well Gond is already in the game, Ahom was but was replaced by Tai Nüa (a dialect of Shan) after feedback. We'll see if they add a separate Ahom culture back in.

By the way, to me it seems Gujarat, Rajasthan, Sindh and Maharashtra are the regions most in need of more locations now.

Oh, I see. Ahom is quite an important culture later in the game's period (famous for their resistance against the Mughals). It would really be a bummer if they weren't added back.

I agree that all those regions need a very big increase of location density. The entirety of the Subcontinent needs a serious rework. Those were the just regions that came to mind at the moment. I'm generally moving downwards in priority according to population, significance and current location spread.

If I were to rank the regions in order of priority for future granularity improvement:

- Tier 1 (Crucial): Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, Tamil Nadu, Inland Maharashtra

Very populous, very historically significant, very horribly represented. Should get their location numbers 2-2.5x at the very least.

- Tier 2 (Important): Kerala, Gujarat, KPK, Bengal, Konkan Coast, Bihar, Eastern Rajasthan, Andhra, Deccan

Less than adequate representation, but it could have been worse. Still need major revisions and additions (1.5-2x the current count).

- Tier 3 (Welcome): Assam, Sindh, Parts of Madhya Pradesh, Western Rajasthan, Karnataka

Generally mildly displeasing to acceptable. More locations would be welcome to introduce RGO diversity and for general improvement of the Subcontinent's representation. 1.25.-1.5x the current density.

- Tier 4 (Unnecessary): Maldives, Sri Lanka, Chhattisgarh, Kashmir, Nepal

They're fine as they are. Maybe some borders could be redrawn or a location or two added, but I feel like they've been given much more attention than the other deserving regions already.



Let me know what you think. Always open to feedback

 

[Streamlet]

I agree but I think you worded this a bit vaguely. I think superior terms would be Kamarupi and Kosali?

Yes. Assamese should be split into Kamarupi and Ahom. Chhattisgarhi should be broken into Kosali for the parts that were controlled by the polity and and few outlying locations, and Gond for the remaining

Assamese should be fine, the cutoff point for Kamarupi is usually considered to be around 1250, and after that point it splits into Early Assamese (aka Eastern Kamarupi) and Kamata (western).

Beyond that I just hope that the languages move to their relevant positions, Tai Ahom (or proto-northern-Shan, however it's implemented) currently goes too far west, and Assamese is somehow meant to migrate eastwards despite no mechanics existing for such a thing. I'm confused as to why the feedback post was even shown while the change was said to be still pending and going to be changed soon, but I guess we won't know until release unless there's a global post on updated pops *shrug*

 

[Fawr]

Buddhism was in severe decline in the Indus Plain long before the arrival of Muslims in 712, due to both the targeted persecutions of Buddhists and violent acts against monasteries and temples by the invading Alchon Huns and the loss of official patronage to clerics and religious buildings after the rise of the Hindu Brahmin dynasty. Buddhism in 712 was in no way the majority religion of the entire region. It was a significant minority, although mostly followed by townspeople (artisans and merchants) concentrated in urban centres.

During the Umayyad Invasion despite being either supportive to the invasion or ambivalent, thousands of Buddhists were slaughtered particularly in the sacks of the cities of Rohri and Debal. Even after the eventual conquest of Sindh, the situation for them scarcely improved. It is unclear if whether the process was directly forced or out of duress, but there were mass conversions of Buddhists to Islam or Hinduism.

By 1337, Buddhism should be practically non-existent in the region. The religious demographics should be distributed primarily between the larger Hindus (60-65%) and slightly-smaller but quickly growing Sunni Muslims (35-40%). Muslims should be more dominant in urban areas (Manora, Mansura, Sukkur) while Hindus should be widespread across the countryside especially in Nagarparkar. Some few thousand Buddhist pops should be present at best.

Buddhism vanished very quickly across the Subcontinent. This is a very known fact. Even without specific information, it makes zero logical sense for anyone acquainted with the history of Buddhism in the Indian Subcontinent to assume that it somehow managed to survive as the predominant religion in a region that was the first to be affected by Muslim invasions and Islamisation efforts.

As for sources, there is an unfortunate dearth of primary ones. The decline of Buddhism post-Huns is well-recorded and commented on by both Xuanzang in the 7th century (in the direct aftermath of the Hun invasion) and by Al-Beruni in the 11th (Although his description was more general to Western India). The details of the conquest of Sindh and mentions of mass conversions are recorded in the Chachnama (the closest thing to a proper chronicle of Sindh from that time period) and Fath-ul-Buldan. We have Darryl MacLean in the modern-era who backs up the collapse of Buddhism in Sindh over timeand attributes it to various factors (encouragement by authorities, ocioeconomic convenience for urbanites, entrenchment of Hindu vassals and administrators in the rural areas by the Arabs who further weakened Buddhist influence)

I found this a much more convincing explanation. I suspect that posting explanations like this is a much better way to get changes in the game then your OP. I'd recommend picking another topic or two that you feel strongly about and expanding on them in similar ways.

ps. for locations they have said previously that asking for extra location density isn't helpful (I think it was in threads about China). Instead they want specific small-scale suggestions of what specific locations should be split. Looking at the Germany map I suspect times that the two halves of the location would be owned by different polities are particularly useful.

 

[Moppy771]

It's a very nuanced aspect which has multiple facets, some which might cross certain boundaries for sections of the playerbase. I feel like such a concept should be treaded lightly with, as it is a sensitive and also contemporary (in some ways) problem.

Hard Disagree. Kind of smacks of historical revisionism or an attempt at white-washing even, like how some on the forum tried to explain the "nuances" of the jannisary kidnapping and slave-soldier system. If the caste system is fleshed out it should be done with no constraint about its effects and nature.

Air everyone's historical dirty laundry out equally. It's high time more people understand that the abuse of humans in this era wasn't limited to just the triangular slave trade just because people are more desensitised to it.

 

[TheNewCaliph]

Hard Disagree. Kind of smacks of historical revisionism or an attempt at white-washing even, like how some on the forum tried to explain the "nuances" of the jannisary kidnapping and slave-soldier system. If the caste system is fleshed out it should be done with no constraint about its effects and nature.

Air everyone's historical dirty laundry out equally. It's high time more people understand that the abuse of humans in this era wasn't limited to just the triangular slave trade just because people are more desensitised to it.

I suppose when you argue it this way, you're right.

 

[TheNewCaliph]

I found this a much more convincing explanation. I suspect that posting explanations like this is a much better way to get changes in the game then your OP. I'd recommend picking another topic or two that you feel strongly about and expanding on them in similar ways.

ps. for locations they have said previously that asking for extra location density isn't helpful (I think it was in threads about China). Instead they want specific small-scale suggestions of what specific locations should be split. Looking at the Germany map I suspect times that the two halves of the location would be owned by different polities are particularly useful.

Noted. I'll probably make similar descriptive posts for the other points I mentioned.

I do understand your frustation but if a bigger density is not given before release, I am quite confident we will be able to give it later. I do have a lot of bookmarks with information for India, we just lack time. Please be patient.

I think the small-scale suggestions are for the changes they can feasibly integrate pre-release. The devs seem open to giving the general region a better location density in future updates and/or DLCs

 

[TheNewCaliph]

Saffron Cultivation in Kashmir


The history of this spice's cultivation in Kashmir believed to date back centuries. The exact timeframe from when it arrived is still matter of conflict. Some sources arguing for its presence being a consequence of certain activities in the 5th century from Persia, notably Persian records themselves. The two leading theories for the routes of the arrival are:

- It was either first spread to India via Persian rulers' efforts to stock their newly built gardens and parks.

- It was introduced by Buddhist missionaries in the same timeframe.

While the exact timeline is debated, saffron had cemented itself as an important crop in Kashmir over time and became an integral part of Kashmiri culture and cuisine for a long time. The Pampore and Pulwama regions have been identified in history where it's planting was concentrated.

Saffron was mentioned in many historical texts in a Kashmiri context. Phoenicians were known to market the new Kashmiri saffron by utilising their extensive trade routes after cultivation became prominent. It is also referenced as a key ingredient in medical texts from around 500 BC. The famous playwright Kalidasa (circa. 5th century BCE) also mentioned fields of saffron in his works, indicating its presence as an agricultural crop in the region long back.

Kashmiri saffron is mentioned in the ancient Chinese medical text Shennong Ben Cao Jing (circa. 3rd century AD). The Chinese medical expert Wan Zhen also wrote that "[t]he habitat of saffron is in Kashmir, where people grow it principally to offer it to the Buddha".

The Mughal chronicler Abul Fazal in his Ain-i-Akbari described the beauty of blossoming saffron fields in Kashmir, indicating its significance during the Mughal period. During the Mughal period Kashmiri saffron was incredibly sought after by the nobility in the Doab, Punjab and Middle Ganges Plain, which led to large-scale commercial export of the spice.

This historical precedent continues on to the modern day, with Kashmir remaining one of the largest producers and exporters of Saffron worldwide and even a recipient of a GI tag by the Indian Government.

 

[zeruosi]

- Reworking of the climate and vegetation in the Indus Plain (Incredibly anachronistic and underwhelming. I'll elaborate in later post why)

I'm waiting for you to update this. By the way, are you Indian? I see that you know a lot about India.

 

[Victor Emmanuel 2k]

The hindu religion mechanics could be de-linked from avatars, since they are not the core of hindu ritual patronage.

Instead they could be based on:

• Split of hindu religion into its consequent religions - vaishnavism, shaivism, shaktism and smartism
• introduce Manusmriti as a WoA.
• temple consecration (!)
• grant of lands, gold, jewels and elephants to temples using copper plate inscriptions
• Bhakti marga, Karma marga and jnana marga
• promote festivals
• introduce a dharma score increased by good deeds
• Seek astrological soothsayer while preparing for a war
• Perform Ashvamedha sacrifice ritual
• Claim royal descent from deities
• Donating cattle to brahmins
• host religious debates
• undertake pilgrimage
• appropriate land from one hindu religion to another hindu religion

hindu religion group revolves around temple patronage.

representing hindu sects as IOs doesn't represent the political landscape of the period as kings patronised more than one sect at multiple instances. One the other hand, people had strong sectarian loyalties where a vaishnavite group of people would never wanna be present in the same room as a shaivite group. The sects here display culture-like aspects. So grouping diverse people into a single umbrella religion wouldn't make sense as well.

I am a hindu from south india. So I think I can offer a better perspective.
@Johan