• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
baylox said:
Just for form's sake: have you all read (and understood) in the manual what the industrialization levels represents? Its the spread of industry throughout a country, as well as the quality of said industry (not the amount of it; that's IC).

Just so we're on the same level.
I, for one, have read and understood the manual. Perhaps it would be more acccurate to say that industrialization level reflects the degree to which industry has permeated the nation's economy.

For example, we can compare China and Switzerland in 1936. (I assume that Switzerland is fully industrialized; I can't prove it because I can't use CORE yet).

China is huge, much larger than Switzerland, with vastly greater territory and population. But while the majority of Swiss people live in cities and towns and work in factories and offices, the majority of Chinese people live in villages and work on small farms.

Industrialization has thoroughly permeated Switzerland's economy and society. The great majority of their population is literate and has some degree of education. Swiss industrial infrastructure is dense; most of the country has access to electricity and railroads. Swiss factories employ cutting-edge industrial technology.

Industrialization has hardly permeated China's economy and society at all. Most of their population lives in villages ruled by armed warlords, just as they might have in the Period of the Warring States over two thousand years ago. The only difference is that the warlords have rifles and not swords. Agriculture is still crude; much of the population is still using the farming techniques of the nineteenth or eighteenth centuries. Most of the population is illiterate, access to electricity and railroads is rare, and Chinese factories employ obsolete technology.

Now, China still has a larger industrial base than Switzerland. They can probably train and equip more infantry divisions than the Swiss could hope to. But in areas like high technology (such as electronics and jet engines), China is at a crippling disadvantage compared to Switzerland. This disadvantage is so great that it cannot be overcome in the sixteen year time scale of Doomsday and CORE. To manufacture electronics and make something like a radar set, China would first have to build up a large system of modern schools and train hundreds of thousands of capable electricians and electrical engineers from scratch, where none such exist. That alone would take over a decade. Then they would have to refit a large percentage of their large industrial base to produce certain kinds of high-precision components and high-tech tools that cannot now be made anywhere in China. That would take quite some time, too. And then they would have to bring all these components together in a place they had never come together before and make them work. They would have to deal with the institutional corruption of the Chinese government (which is common in non-industrialized nations and which makes industrialization much harder). They would have to expend vast amounts of resources and time. By comparison, the Manhattan Project was a relatively trivial effort to the US compared to what the 'Build A Radar Set' Project would be for China. The US could employ existing expertise to build the first nuclear bomb; China would have to teach its scientists to read and write before it could hope to get them to build a radar set. They have to make the tools, to make the tools, to make the tools before they can even begin to get to work.

Thus, China ain't gonna be inventing radar independently in the time scale of this game. It won't happen. Even for a semi-industrialized nation like the Soviet Union, which starts the Grand Campaign with plenty of factories and a (relatively) large percentage of its population educated and literate, developing a thriving electronics industry would be hard. For China it isn't possible at all. Not by 1953, not in the middle of World War Two. It would take at least until the 1970s or 1980s for China to start developing electronics on a serious basis.

And yet 1936 China can still manufacture infantry divisions faster than 1936 Switzerland, because their large population of illiterate peasants and semi-literate sweatshop factory workers who work dawn till dusk because there aren't any electric lights in the factory are easily up to the task of sewing uniforms and machining bolt-action rifles to arm soldiers at a much greater rate than the small population of Switzerland could hope to.
 
Simon_Jester said:
For example, we can compare China and Switzerland in 1936. (I assume that Switzerland is fully industrialized; I can't prove it because I can't use CORE yet).

Very good example, should be added to the manual. :D
 
Simon_Jester said:
I, for one, have read and understood the manual. Perhaps it would be more acccurate to say that industrialization level reflects the degree to which industry has permeated the nation's economy.

For example, we can compare China and Switzerland in 1936. (I assume that Switzerland is fully industrialized; I can't prove it because I can't use CORE yet).

China is huge, much larger than Switzerland, with vastly greater territory and population. But while the majority of Swiss people live in cities and towns and work in factories and offices, the majority of Chinese people live in villages and work on small farms.

Industrialization has thoroughly permeated Switzerland's economy and society. The great majority of their population is literate and has some degree of education. Swiss industrial infrastructure is dense; most of the country has access to electricity and railroads. Swiss factories employ cutting-edge industrial technology.

Industrialization has hardly permeated China's economy and society at all. Most of their population lives in villages ruled by armed warlords, just as they might have in the Period of the Warring States over two thousand years ago. The only difference is that the warlords have rifles and not swords. Agriculture is still crude; much of the population is still using the farming techniques of the nineteenth or eighteenth centuries. Most of the population is illiterate, access to electricity and railroads is rare, and Chinese factories employ obsolete technology.

Now, China still has a larger industrial base than Switzerland. They can probably train and equip more infantry divisions than the Swiss could hope to. But in areas like high technology (such as electronics and jet engines), China is at a crippling disadvantage compared to Switzerland. This disadvantage is so great that it cannot be overcome in the sixteen year time scale of Doomsday and CORE. To manufacture electronics and make something like a radar set, China would first have to build up a large system of modern schools and train hundreds of thousands of capable electricians and electrical engineers from scratch, where none such exist. That alone would take over a decade. Then they would have to refit a large percentage of their large industrial base to produce certain kinds of high-precision components and high-tech tools that cannot now be made anywhere in China. That would take quite some time, too. And then they would have to bring all these components together in a place they had never come together before and make them work. They would have to deal with the institutional corruption of the Chinese government (which is common in non-industrialized nations and which makes industrialization much harder). They would have to expend vast amounts of resources and time. By comparison, the Manhattan Project was a relatively trivial effort to the US compared to what the 'Build A Radar Set' Project would be for China. The US could employ existing expertise to build the first nuclear bomb; China would have to teach its scientists to read and write before it could hope to get them to build a radar set. They have to make the tools, to make the tools, to make the tools before they can even begin to get to work.

Thus, China ain't gonna be inventing radar independently in the time scale of this game. It won't happen. Even for a semi-industrialized nation like the Soviet Union, which starts the Grand Campaign with plenty of factories and a (relatively) large percentage of its population educated and literate, developing a thriving electronics industry would be hard. For China it isn't possible at all. Not by 1953, not in the middle of World War Two. It would take at least until the 1970s or 1980s for China to start developing electronics on a serious basis.

And yet 1936 China can still manufacture infantry divisions faster than 1936 Switzerland, because their large population of illiterate peasants and semi-literate sweatshop factory workers who work dawn till dusk because there aren't any electric lights in the factory are easily up to the task of sewing uniforms and machining bolt-action rifles to arm soldiers at a much greater rate than the small population of Switzerland could hope to.
I tip my hat to you sir, great post.
 
Wolfhead said:
Very good example, should be added to the manual. :D
They are absolutely welcome to add it to the manual if it suits them to do so. Or, if Paradox's copyright claim to material on this board is an issue then I will write up a similar statement on the same topic.

Anything to be published! Anything

[/grad student reflexes]
 
How about this:

"A Fully Industrialized Economy is affected by industrialization on every level. Most of the population is educated and works in factories and offices, and the nation's industrial base uses the most advanced technologies available in the world. Agriculture is mechanized, so only a small percentage of the nation's people need to be farming. Such a nation has full access to the Industry tech tree and can research advanced technologies such as radar without restrictions. Examples of fully industrialized nations include most of the major nations (such as Germany, the UK and the US), and some of the more heavily industrialized minors (such as Czechoslovakia)."

"A Semi-Industrialized Economy has a strong industrial base, but large sectors of its economy are not yet industrialized and its industry is somewhat behind the technology curve. Benefits of modern technology such as electricity may not be available to civilians in all parts of the country. Significant parts of the population are uneducated or illiterate, reducing this country's strength in areas of high technology. They will have to perform additional research to improve their industries before they can research electronics and other high-tech fields. Agriculture is largely mechanized, but this is a new development and there are still plenty of small farmers. Such economies include several major nations (the USSR, Italy and Japan) and many minor nations (such as Poland and Spain)."

"A Pre-Industrial Economy is still in the midst of the Industrial Revolution. Mechanization of agriculture is still not complete, and many farmers employ muscle power to grow and move their crops. The industrial base is relatively small and employs only a small fraction of the population, and its technology may be over a decade behind the cutting edge. Heavy machinery and heavy industry are not yet common in these nations, and their small pool of educated workers makes it very hard for them to research high technology like Electronics in the time scale of the CORE mod. Examples of Pre-Industrial economies include Greece, Mexico and Argentina.

"An Agrarian Economy is still based on farming. Most of the population has little or no education, grows crops for a living, and does so without the advantage of modern technology. While they may have a large production capability in terms of simple goods, their factories are primitive, possibly still making use of Victorian era technology. Most of the industrial tech tree is out of their reach; they are still so far behind the leaders of world industry that they will need decades of economic growth even to reach the level those leaders are at in 1936. The largest example of an Agrarian Economy is China; others include Brazil and Panama."

"A Subsistence Economy is virtually unaffected by the Industrial Revolution. Almost their entire population must spend all their time farming, and their agriculture does not produce enough food to support a large class of factory workers. This nation has at most a few large industrial facilities, probably dedicated to simple industrial processes using low technology. A combination of government corruption, lack of foreign investment capital, and a shortage of available trained labor makes it effectively impossible for this country to develop its economy further, presenting a "Catch 22" for the leaders of this country."

I know those are much longer than the entries in the manual I've seen, but what do you think?
 
Last edited:
That's pretty good, length-wise. I would prefer if the example uses the Netherlands rather than Switzerland, though, because Switzerland is only Semi-Industrialized in the game currently. :) Also, the Netherlands has indigenous aircraft companies and shipyards, apart from electronics companies, which ties into the theme.

EDIT: Other than that I like the text as it is.
 
baylox said:
That's pretty good, length-wise. I would prefer if the example uses the Netherlands rather than Switzerland, though, because Switzerland is only Semi-Industrialized in the game currently. :) Also, the Netherlands has indigenous aircraft companies and shipyards, apart from electronics companies, which ties into the theme.

EDIT: Other than that I like the text as it is.
Well, pull out 'Switzerland' and 'Swiss' and substitute 'the Netherlands' and 'Dutch' aand you're golden, then.

My mistake about the Swiss. I don't actually have the mod yet (I have a Mac), so I just wanted to pick a nation that I dimly recall having advanced industry but not very much of it so that the comparison to China would be obvious.
 
I'd be a little careful with the references to Agriculture in the definitions - Germany (for instance) had a pretty poorly modernised Agricultural sector, whereas the USSR's (thanks to collectivisation) was arguably more organised and "modernised" (eg in terms of tractor usage vs horses, etc). To be honest, I think that is another area that you shouldn't really be able to advance significantly in game - it takes too long to get your agricultural sector switched round to the new techniques, unless you are brutal about it, and willing to accept some bad harvests, dissent and significant expenditure, I'd say.

Incidentally, I think you are being very generous in your definitions for some of the lower tech levels. Subsistence is basically unlikely to have any significant "industrial" centres - what they do have is groupings of individual craftsmen in the larger population centres. Similarly, Agricultural economies are not even particularly up to Victorian era stuff, in many cases, I would say.

My view here is that Subsistence economies are essentially running a pre-medieval economy (virtually no central control, almost all work practices very unchanged for hundreds of years, agriculture comprising some 60-80% of the economy), whilst Agricultural Economies have advanced somewhat, and have probably reached the level of Eighteenth century Europe, with the beginnings of the Agricultural revolution and early farm machinery (cotton gins, for example). I would classify Pre-Industrial societies as those just beginning to develop Victorian style industry. Semi-Industrial societies are (to me) those of a fully developed Victorian nature - imagine Britain in 1900 - no Dreadnaughts, no wireless, no planes.. but with the potential for all these just around the corner.

Tim
 
Last edited:
HistoryMan said:
I'd be a little careful with the references to Agriculture in the definitions - Germany (for instance) had a pretty poorly modernised Agricultural sector, whereas the USSR's (thanks to collectivisation) was arguably more organised and "modernised" (eg in terms of tractor usage vs horses, etc). To be honest, I think that is another area that you shouldn't really be able to advance significantly in game - it takes too long to get your agricultural sector switched round to the new techniques, unless you are brutal about it, and willing to accept some bad harvests, dissent and significant expenditure, I'd say.
Remember that the effects of the agriculture techs aren't very dramatic. All they do is free up a slightly larger trickle of farm laborers (increased manpower production).

So developing 'Mechanized Agriculture' doesn't automatically give you the full effect of mechanization on your nation's agriculture instantly. Instead, it reflects the time and effort required to retool part of your civilian industrial base to mass-produce farm machinery like tractors. Over time, farmers buy or are issued the tractors, which frees up a slow, steady trickle of military-age manpower.

So I would say that yes, you can develop those techs in a short time scale. For a nation that has a significant factory infrastructure already, it isn't much of a stretch to imagine them starting tractor production over a period of a few years without any draconian measures being required. Likewise the production of petrochemical fertilizers, and so forth.

Incidentally, I think you are being very generous in your definitions for some of the lower tech levels. Subsistence is basically unlikely to have any significant "industrial" centres - what they do have is groupings of individual craftsmen in the larger population centres. Similarly, Agricultural economies are not even particularly up to Victorian era stuff, in many cases, I would say.

My view here is that Subsistence economies are essentially running a pre-medieval economy (virtually no central control, almost all work practices very unchanged for hundreds of years, agriculture comprising some 60-80% of the economy), whilst Agricultural Economies have advanced somewhat, and have probably reached the level of Eighteenth century Europe, with the beginnings of the Agricultural revolution and early farm machinery (cotton gins, for example). I would classify Pre-Industrial societies as those just beginning to develop Victorian style industry. Semi-Industrial societies are (to me) those of a fully developed Victorian nature - imagine Britain in 1900 - no Dreadnaughts, no wireless, no planes.. but with the potential for all these just around the corner.

Tim
It can't work like that.

If it does, then effectively all the major nations in the setting have to be fully industrialized and there's hardly any point in having the system. Even the Chinese had significant industry, and this industry was in fact using 20th and late 19th century technology. So, by your logic, they would be at worst Semi-Industrial.

The point is that the game begins in 1936. By 1936, there aren't any factories using pre-Victorian watermill technology. Every country has electrical power grids in some areas. Even a backward nation isn't going to be using the same technology that Europe used in the 18th century for everything, just as even the most backward armies are no longer marching in blocks and firing blackpowder muskets at their enemies. The technological progression of an unindustrialized nation in the modern world doesn't exactly follow the path followed by the industrialized nations, always having whatever the industrialized nation had 20 or 50 or 200 years earlier. It doesn't work that way.

For the full range of industrialization levels to appear in the game, we have to accept that even the lowest levels reflect nations which possess technology of the 19th and 20th centuries. This technology may not be distributed throughout the population, of course. Once you get away from the major cities life may be just as it was a few centuries earlier, with effectively no changes due to industrialization. But you won't find an entire country with no electricity and no factories.

The industrialization techs do not reflect a broad range of baseline tech levels. They reflect the degree to which modern technology has permeated the population of the country.
 
Once you get away from the major cities life may be just as it was a few centuries earlier, with effectively no changes due to industrialization. But you won't find an entire country with no electricity and no factories.

That is the point - the nation is essentially unchanged - still at medieval/18th Century levels of technology by and large. Take somewhere like Afghanistan in 1936 - sure, Kabul and the other major towns probably have some electricity, and a few cars, etc.. but I very much doubt you will find any factories as such - but you will find lots of small workshops where a small group of craftsmen can produce "modern" equipment using pretty basic technology that is not really any different to what they have had for some time.

China and India are a little different, although the main point here is that the vast majority of the country is still plodding along in the same old way as it has done for 100s of years - whatever industry there is, is highly concentrated, and essentially not interconnected with the rest of the nation.

Sure - almost every place on the planet in 1936 had a Capital where you could find electricity and motor cars, etc - but they would almost invariably be as a result of Western importation, for diplomats, businessmen, the local ruler, etc, and of no significant value on productive terms for the nation in question. Therefore, the *local* technology is effectively still medieval (heck, some of the places I am thinking of are little better today - parts of Africa, for example) or 18th century. If you check out some of these places, there are a number of spots that have essentially no IC (we ended up having to give every independent nation at least 1 IC, otherwise they never built anything - including supplies) - largely because they have no productive capacity in reality.

Tim
 
HistoryMan said:
That is the point - the nation is essentially unchanged - still at medieval/18th Century levels of technology by and large. Take somewhere like Afghanistan in 1936 - sure, Kabul and the other major towns probably have some electricity, and a few cars, etc.. but I very much doubt you will find any factories as such - but you will find lots of small workshops where a small group of craftsmen can produce "modern" equipment using pretty basic technology that is not really any different to what they have had for some time.

China and India are a little different, although the main point here is that the vast majority of the country is still plodding along in the same old way as it has done for 100s of years - whatever industry there is, is highly concentrated, and essentially not interconnected with the rest of the nation.
Well, that's really my point too. The less industrialized nation has modern technology, but not enough of it for it to penetrate into the society as a whole. A fully industrialized nation has so much modern technology that everyone can own it.

But you can't just say that the country has "Victorian tech levels" or "1800 tech levels," because that implies that the country is in fact like that everywhere when it is not. The distribution of technology in China in 1936 was extremely nonuniform, with Nanking being a somewhat modern city with electricity and motorcars while the hinterlands were still using muscle-powered agriculture with even the relatively low technology of railroads being widely dispersed.

You can't really say that China was a modern country, even though there was modern technology present. But you also can't say that China was a country still using the technology of the 1800s or 1700s, because it wasn't like that all over the place and it had an economic subsector that employed modern technology.

So instead, you say that China was a nation incompletely permeated by modern technology, which is what the industrialization effects are supposed to reflect. This is not a nation which can't build airplanes or dreadnoughts because it doesn't have technologies. It is a nation which can't build airplanes or dreadnoughts because it doesn't have things- factories, educated workers, machine tools, and so forth.

Therefore, the *local* technology is effectively still medieval (heck, some of the places I am thinking of are little better today - parts of Africa, for example) or 18th century. If you check out some of these places, there are a number of spots that have essentially no IC (we ended up having to give every independent nation at least 1 IC, otherwise they never built anything - including supplies) - largely because they have no productive capacity in reality.

Tim
Well, IC can reflect the ability to import as well as the ability to manufacture. If my country has no domestic industry larger than a smithy, but nonetheless is one of the world's leading exporters of, say, tea, then I should have some IC to reflect the fact that my ability to make and export tea allows me to trade it for the things I need to have a (small) military.

Only a nation which is completely incapable of making or selling anything that it could possibly use in a WWII military-industrial context, or that the world would want to buy, should have no IC. And even the most primitive nations of this setting did engage in trade.
 
Industrialisation of released nations

I believe the industrialisation model is one of the best innovations in CORE. I have a question, though:

"Liberated" nations are released with the TECH levels of their liberators. Are puppets then released with the industrialisaton levels of their liberators?

The biggest problem would be puppet Nationalist China, which would be promoted to semi industrial as released by Japan ...

Has somebody checked this in a JAP game?
 
Tegetthoff said:
"Liberated" nations are released with the TECH levels of their liberators. Are puppets then released with the industrialisaton levels of their liberators?

The biggest problem would be puppet Nationalist China, which would be promoted to semi industrial as released by Japan ...

Has somebody checked this in a JAP game?

If you think that a Semi-Ind Nat China is bad, consider the case of Germany releasing places like the Ukraine - they become Fully Industrialised. Or (potentially even weirder) the UK releases some of the African colonial states.. which have 0 or 1 IC.. and they would become Fully Industrialised too. Since it is built into the game engine, there is not a lot we can do, alas.

To answer your question more directly - if the puppet state was created by liberation, then yes, it will get the parents tech level. If it is an existing puppet (eg Manchukuo for japan) then it started out with its' own tech level, and will retain it.

Tim
 
Thanks for the information. I have played around with a variant of the China surrender where China releases the warlords instead of Japan and where China is turned into a puppet without being annexed by Japan before. I may revive this for my private CORE modmod.
 
baylox said:
If it turns out good we might be interested in having a look at it.

I would be honored. I´ll probably enjoy a few games of CORE before going back to modding.

Regards

T.