That's correct - its extremely unlikely that Bolivia could've gone on a world (or even South American) conquest and so it is in CORE, more so than in vanilla (which is good, IMO, from the basic precept of CORE regarding historicity).
I, for one, have read and understood the manual. Perhaps it would be more acccurate to say that industrialization level reflects the degree to which industry has permeated the nation's economy.baylox said:Just for form's sake: have you all read (and understood) in the manual what the industrialization levels represents? Its the spread of industry throughout a country, as well as the quality of said industry (not the amount of it; that's IC).
Just so we're on the same level.
Simon_Jester said:For example, we can compare China and Switzerland in 1936. (I assume that Switzerland is fully industrialized; I can't prove it because I can't use CORE yet).
I tip my hat to you sir, great post.Simon_Jester said:I, for one, have read and understood the manual. Perhaps it would be more acccurate to say that industrialization level reflects the degree to which industry has permeated the nation's economy.
For example, we can compare China and Switzerland in 1936. (I assume that Switzerland is fully industrialized; I can't prove it because I can't use CORE yet).
China is huge, much larger than Switzerland, with vastly greater territory and population. But while the majority of Swiss people live in cities and towns and work in factories and offices, the majority of Chinese people live in villages and work on small farms.
Industrialization has thoroughly permeated Switzerland's economy and society. The great majority of their population is literate and has some degree of education. Swiss industrial infrastructure is dense; most of the country has access to electricity and railroads. Swiss factories employ cutting-edge industrial technology.
Industrialization has hardly permeated China's economy and society at all. Most of their population lives in villages ruled by armed warlords, just as they might have in the Period of the Warring States over two thousand years ago. The only difference is that the warlords have rifles and not swords. Agriculture is still crude; much of the population is still using the farming techniques of the nineteenth or eighteenth centuries. Most of the population is illiterate, access to electricity and railroads is rare, and Chinese factories employ obsolete technology.
Now, China still has a larger industrial base than Switzerland. They can probably train and equip more infantry divisions than the Swiss could hope to. But in areas like high technology (such as electronics and jet engines), China is at a crippling disadvantage compared to Switzerland. This disadvantage is so great that it cannot be overcome in the sixteen year time scale of Doomsday and CORE. To manufacture electronics and make something like a radar set, China would first have to build up a large system of modern schools and train hundreds of thousands of capable electricians and electrical engineers from scratch, where none such exist. That alone would take over a decade. Then they would have to refit a large percentage of their large industrial base to produce certain kinds of high-precision components and high-tech tools that cannot now be made anywhere in China. That would take quite some time, too. And then they would have to bring all these components together in a place they had never come together before and make them work. They would have to deal with the institutional corruption of the Chinese government (which is common in non-industrialized nations and which makes industrialization much harder). They would have to expend vast amounts of resources and time. By comparison, the Manhattan Project was a relatively trivial effort to the US compared to what the 'Build A Radar Set' Project would be for China. The US could employ existing expertise to build the first nuclear bomb; China would have to teach its scientists to read and write before it could hope to get them to build a radar set. They have to make the tools, to make the tools, to make the tools before they can even begin to get to work.
Thus, China ain't gonna be inventing radar independently in the time scale of this game. It won't happen. Even for a semi-industrialized nation like the Soviet Union, which starts the Grand Campaign with plenty of factories and a (relatively) large percentage of its population educated and literate, developing a thriving electronics industry would be hard. For China it isn't possible at all. Not by 1953, not in the middle of World War Two. It would take at least until the 1970s or 1980s for China to start developing electronics on a serious basis.
And yet 1936 China can still manufacture infantry divisions faster than 1936 Switzerland, because their large population of illiterate peasants and semi-literate sweatshop factory workers who work dawn till dusk because there aren't any electric lights in the factory are easily up to the task of sewing uniforms and machining bolt-action rifles to arm soldiers at a much greater rate than the small population of Switzerland could hope to.
They are absolutely welcome to add it to the manual if it suits them to do so. Or, if Paradox's copyright claim to material on this board is an issue then I will write up a similar statement on the same topic.Wolfhead said:Very good example, should be added to the manual.![]()
Well, pull out 'Switzerland' and 'Swiss' and substitute 'the Netherlands' and 'Dutch' aand you're golden, then.baylox said:That's pretty good, length-wise. I would prefer if the example uses the Netherlands rather than Switzerland, though, because Switzerland is only Semi-Industrialized in the game currently.Also, the Netherlands has indigenous aircraft companies and shipyards, apart from electronics companies, which ties into the theme.
EDIT: Other than that I like the text as it is.
Remember that the effects of the agriculture techs aren't very dramatic. All they do is free up a slightly larger trickle of farm laborers (increased manpower production).HistoryMan said:I'd be a little careful with the references to Agriculture in the definitions - Germany (for instance) had a pretty poorly modernised Agricultural sector, whereas the USSR's (thanks to collectivisation) was arguably more organised and "modernised" (eg in terms of tractor usage vs horses, etc). To be honest, I think that is another area that you shouldn't really be able to advance significantly in game - it takes too long to get your agricultural sector switched round to the new techniques, unless you are brutal about it, and willing to accept some bad harvests, dissent and significant expenditure, I'd say.
It can't work like that.Incidentally, I think you are being very generous in your definitions for some of the lower tech levels. Subsistence is basically unlikely to have any significant "industrial" centres - what they do have is groupings of individual craftsmen in the larger population centres. Similarly, Agricultural economies are not even particularly up to Victorian era stuff, in many cases, I would say.
My view here is that Subsistence economies are essentially running a pre-medieval economy (virtually no central control, almost all work practices very unchanged for hundreds of years, agriculture comprising some 60-80% of the economy), whilst Agricultural Economies have advanced somewhat, and have probably reached the level of Eighteenth century Europe, with the beginnings of the Agricultural revolution and early farm machinery (cotton gins, for example). I would classify Pre-Industrial societies as those just beginning to develop Victorian style industry. Semi-Industrial societies are (to me) those of a fully developed Victorian nature - imagine Britain in 1900 - no Dreadnaughts, no wireless, no planes.. but with the potential for all these just around the corner.
Tim
Once you get away from the major cities life may be just as it was a few centuries earlier, with effectively no changes due to industrialization. But you won't find an entire country with no electricity and no factories.
Well, that's really my point too. The less industrialized nation has modern technology, but not enough of it for it to penetrate into the society as a whole. A fully industrialized nation has so much modern technology that everyone can own it.HistoryMan said:That is the point - the nation is essentially unchanged - still at medieval/18th Century levels of technology by and large. Take somewhere like Afghanistan in 1936 - sure, Kabul and the other major towns probably have some electricity, and a few cars, etc.. but I very much doubt you will find any factories as such - but you will find lots of small workshops where a small group of craftsmen can produce "modern" equipment using pretty basic technology that is not really any different to what they have had for some time.
China and India are a little different, although the main point here is that the vast majority of the country is still plodding along in the same old way as it has done for 100s of years - whatever industry there is, is highly concentrated, and essentially not interconnected with the rest of the nation.
Well, IC can reflect the ability to import as well as the ability to manufacture. If my country has no domestic industry larger than a smithy, but nonetheless is one of the world's leading exporters of, say, tea, then I should have some IC to reflect the fact that my ability to make and export tea allows me to trade it for the things I need to have a (small) military.Therefore, the *local* technology is effectively still medieval (heck, some of the places I am thinking of are little better today - parts of Africa, for example) or 18th century. If you check out some of these places, there are a number of spots that have essentially no IC (we ended up having to give every independent nation at least 1 IC, otherwise they never built anything - including supplies) - largely because they have no productive capacity in reality.
Tim
Tegetthoff said:"Liberated" nations are released with the TECH levels of their liberators. Are puppets then released with the industrialisaton levels of their liberators?
The biggest problem would be puppet Nationalist China, which would be promoted to semi industrial as released by Japan ...
Has somebody checked this in a JAP game?
baylox said:If it turns out good we might be interested in having a look at it.