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Here is an excellent site - with pictures of CoAs - for France:
http://membres.lycos.fr/heratlas/a_tables/france/tableau.htm
This lists not only the major provinces, but many of the smaller divisions within each province. One note about the provincial arms - if you see the fleur-de-lis, it is a later CoA used by the sons of French kings when they recieved the area (with the exception of Ile-de-France of course). Usually, the original CoA (which is the one we want to use of course) can be found just to the right of the more modern CoA - in the case of Anjou (two gold lions on red) , Berry (Bourges - three sheep on blue), Bourgogne (yellow and blue diagonal stripes with a red outline), Dauphine (Viennois - blue and red dolphin on yellow), and Province (red and yellow stripes). Picardie also has fleur-de-lis quarters, but no earlier arms shown; presumably the original CoA for Picardie was the three red lions on white shown in the other quarters.
The best part of this site is that you can click on any of the CoAs and get a enlarged picture of the CoA!
This site also contains a very nice clickable map of France with CoAs:
http://membres.lycos.fr/heratlas/fra_cart.htm
http://membres.lycos.fr/heratlas/a_tables/france/tableau.htm
This lists not only the major provinces, but many of the smaller divisions within each province. One note about the provincial arms - if you see the fleur-de-lis, it is a later CoA used by the sons of French kings when they recieved the area (with the exception of Ile-de-France of course). Usually, the original CoA (which is the one we want to use of course) can be found just to the right of the more modern CoA - in the case of Anjou (two gold lions on red) , Berry (Bourges - three sheep on blue), Bourgogne (yellow and blue diagonal stripes with a red outline), Dauphine (Viennois - blue and red dolphin on yellow), and Province (red and yellow stripes). Picardie also has fleur-de-lis quarters, but no earlier arms shown; presumably the original CoA for Picardie was the three red lions on white shown in the other quarters.
The best part of this site is that you can click on any of the CoAs and get a enlarged picture of the CoA!
This site also contains a very nice clickable map of France with CoAs:
http://membres.lycos.fr/heratlas/fra_cart.htm
Spanish Heraldry
Heraldry first appeared in Spain at about the beginning of the eleventh century and its origin was the same as other European countries, the need for Knights and Nobles to distinguish themselves from one another on the battle field, in jousts and tournaments. There really was no other reason, although there are varying opinions. The fact that Knights wore armor from head to toe and were often in a leadership position made it essential to be able see who was where on the battle field.
The design of the arms themselves, excepting for the rules of Heraldry, were pretty much up to the whim of the owner. Sometimes the design had a specific meaning or symbolism and just as often it didn't. Originally, anyone could bear (display) arms. Later, it became more of a practice for the nobility. In Spain, however, it was not difficult to be ennobled (made a member of the nobility)
Until the end of the middle ages only the paternal arms were used (those of the father) but, later both the paternal and maternal arms were displayed. The arms of the maternal and paternal grandfathers were impaled (shield cut in half vertically, showing the respective arms on each half). During the 18th and 19th centuries, the use of four quarterings came into use by the nobility (the shield was cut into four parts and the design of the arms of each grandparent was placed in each quarter) There was an order of display as follows:
1) Paternal grandfather 2) Maternal grandfather
3) Paternal grandmother 4) Maternal grandmother
To this very day, the ideal proof of nobility (Hidalguia) is still the four quarterings.
The Spanish nobility, unlike their European counterparts, was based almost entirely on military service. Few families of eminence came from the law, commerce or the church. The great families of Spain and Portugal fought their way to their rank. This may sound primitive on the surface, but it was actually quite fair as it allowed commoners to join the ranks of the nobility through loyal and successful military service. Indeed, many poor families came to prominence and wealth quickly as a result of their successful military exploits.
In Spanish/Hispanic Heraldry Arms are a symbol of ones lineage and a symbol of the family as well. Spanish arms are inheritable as any other form of property.
Inheriting Spanish Arms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The descent of Spanish arms and titles differs from much of Europe in that they can be inherited through females. Also, illegitimacy did not prevent the descent of arms and titles. The great Spanish families believed that a family pedigree could be more damaged by misalliance than by illegitimacy. Indeed, the patents of nobility of many Spanish families contained bequeathals to illegitimate branches in case no legitimate heirs were found. Illegitimacy in Spain was divided into three categories.
1. Natural Children (Hijos Naturales)
Those born of single or widowed parents who could be legitimized by the marriage of their parents or by a declaration by their father that they were his heirs.
2. The Spurious (Hijos Espurios)
Those whose parents, for whatever reason, were not in a position to marry. These hijos had to be legitimized by a petition of royal ratification.
3. Incestuous (Hijos Incestuosos)
Those born of parents too closely related to marry or who were under a religious vow. These hijos required a papal dispensation in order to inherit their parent's arms or property. These papal dispensations were granted so often that every diocese in Spain had signed blanks ready to affix the appropriate name.
Spanish Heraldic Practice
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The charges shown on Spanish armorial bearings can depict historical events or deeds of war. They are also characterized by a widespread use of orles and borders around the edge of the shield. In addition to borders, Spain and Portugal marshal arms more conventionally by quartering. The Spanish also allow words and letters on the shield itself, a practice which is considered incorrect in northern Europe. There is also a lack of crests, and mottoes are rare.
Spanish Heraldic practice has gone through several stages. The original style was simple and elegant. Later, especially around the end of the 16th century, Spanish heraldry went into a decline. The art was commercialized and served more the egos of the armigers and to show family alliances than any other purpose. The art became rather unpleasant to the eye. This decline began to end around the 19th century and presently the art is in a sort of re-birth. The tendency in the art is now once again towards simplicity and elegance.
Some Quick Definitions
The "Coat" of Arms was actually the cloth cape or coat that the Knights wore over their armor to protect them from direct sunlight. This garment was often decorated with the arms exactly as they were on the shield. Most people refer to the shield as the "Family Crest". This is wrong. The crest is a symbol used a lot in English heraldry and is generally placed on top of the helmet in the achievement. (The entire coat of arms with supporters, etc.)
The Spanish achievement is generally quite simple. It is composed of the shield, a cape which can be simply drawn or ornate, a helmet (optional) or a Crown if for a member of the Nobility and a motto (optional). In Spanish heraldry that which is placed on the shield is the most important.
In English, Scottish and Irish Heraldry one can find many additional accessories not found or used in Spanish Heraldry. They can include, in addition to the shield, a helmet, mantling (cloth cape), wreath (a circle of silk with gold and silver cord twisted around and placed to cover the joint between the helmet and crest), the crest, the motto, chapeau, supporters (animals real or fictitious or people holding up the shield), the compartment (whatever the supporters are standing on), standards and Ensigns (personal flags), Coronets of rank, insignia of orders of chivalry and badges.
These complicated achievements can be quite gaudy if not carefully and artistically done. In general the older the arms, the simpler or plainer is the achievement.
Cronista-Rey de Armas
The office of the King of Arms originated in that of the Heralds (Heraldos), whose job was to determine the arms each noble family was entitled to use, and arrange tournaments. The functions and duties of the King of Arms were clearly defined by the declarations of several Kings and are still in force today.
The post of King of Arms took several forms and eventually settled on a Corps of Chronicler King of Arms (Cuerpo de Rey de Armas) which was headed by an Elder or Dean (Decano). It usually consisted of four officers and two assistants or undersecretaries which usually acted as witnesses to documents. The entire corps wore a distinctive uniform. The corps were considered part of the royal household and was generally responsible to the Master of the King's stable (an important position in the middle ages)
Appointments to the Corps of King of Arms were made by the King or reigning Queen. These appointments were for life and while not intended to be hereditary, often went from father to son or other close family member. The Spanish Heralds had other duties which pertained to matters of protocol and often acted as royal messengers and emissaries.
In modern times the Corps of Chronicler King of Arms went through several changes. Important changes were made in 1915, it was abolished in 1931 and restored in 1947-1951. There were two Chronicler Kings of Arms and at least one undersecretary. Don Vicente de Cadenas y Vicent (Decano) and Don Alfonso Ceballos-Escalera y Gil, Marques de la Floresta (Chronicler of Arms for Castille and Leon)
Everything that the Spanish Heralds do must be approved by the Ministry of Grace and Justice.
Heraldry first appeared in Spain at about the beginning of the eleventh century and its origin was the same as other European countries, the need for Knights and Nobles to distinguish themselves from one another on the battle field, in jousts and tournaments. There really was no other reason, although there are varying opinions. The fact that Knights wore armor from head to toe and were often in a leadership position made it essential to be able see who was where on the battle field.
The design of the arms themselves, excepting for the rules of Heraldry, were pretty much up to the whim of the owner. Sometimes the design had a specific meaning or symbolism and just as often it didn't. Originally, anyone could bear (display) arms. Later, it became more of a practice for the nobility. In Spain, however, it was not difficult to be ennobled (made a member of the nobility)
Until the end of the middle ages only the paternal arms were used (those of the father) but, later both the paternal and maternal arms were displayed. The arms of the maternal and paternal grandfathers were impaled (shield cut in half vertically, showing the respective arms on each half). During the 18th and 19th centuries, the use of four quarterings came into use by the nobility (the shield was cut into four parts and the design of the arms of each grandparent was placed in each quarter) There was an order of display as follows:
1) Paternal grandfather 2) Maternal grandfather
3) Paternal grandmother 4) Maternal grandmother
To this very day, the ideal proof of nobility (Hidalguia) is still the four quarterings.
The Spanish nobility, unlike their European counterparts, was based almost entirely on military service. Few families of eminence came from the law, commerce or the church. The great families of Spain and Portugal fought their way to their rank. This may sound primitive on the surface, but it was actually quite fair as it allowed commoners to join the ranks of the nobility through loyal and successful military service. Indeed, many poor families came to prominence and wealth quickly as a result of their successful military exploits.
In Spanish/Hispanic Heraldry Arms are a symbol of ones lineage and a symbol of the family as well. Spanish arms are inheritable as any other form of property.
Inheriting Spanish Arms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The descent of Spanish arms and titles differs from much of Europe in that they can be inherited through females. Also, illegitimacy did not prevent the descent of arms and titles. The great Spanish families believed that a family pedigree could be more damaged by misalliance than by illegitimacy. Indeed, the patents of nobility of many Spanish families contained bequeathals to illegitimate branches in case no legitimate heirs were found. Illegitimacy in Spain was divided into three categories.
1. Natural Children (Hijos Naturales)
Those born of single or widowed parents who could be legitimized by the marriage of their parents or by a declaration by their father that they were his heirs.
2. The Spurious (Hijos Espurios)
Those whose parents, for whatever reason, were not in a position to marry. These hijos had to be legitimized by a petition of royal ratification.
3. Incestuous (Hijos Incestuosos)
Those born of parents too closely related to marry or who were under a religious vow. These hijos required a papal dispensation in order to inherit their parent's arms or property. These papal dispensations were granted so often that every diocese in Spain had signed blanks ready to affix the appropriate name.
Spanish Heraldic Practice
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The charges shown on Spanish armorial bearings can depict historical events or deeds of war. They are also characterized by a widespread use of orles and borders around the edge of the shield. In addition to borders, Spain and Portugal marshal arms more conventionally by quartering. The Spanish also allow words and letters on the shield itself, a practice which is considered incorrect in northern Europe. There is also a lack of crests, and mottoes are rare.
Spanish Heraldic practice has gone through several stages. The original style was simple and elegant. Later, especially around the end of the 16th century, Spanish heraldry went into a decline. The art was commercialized and served more the egos of the armigers and to show family alliances than any other purpose. The art became rather unpleasant to the eye. This decline began to end around the 19th century and presently the art is in a sort of re-birth. The tendency in the art is now once again towards simplicity and elegance.
Some Quick Definitions
The "Coat" of Arms was actually the cloth cape or coat that the Knights wore over their armor to protect them from direct sunlight. This garment was often decorated with the arms exactly as they were on the shield. Most people refer to the shield as the "Family Crest". This is wrong. The crest is a symbol used a lot in English heraldry and is generally placed on top of the helmet in the achievement. (The entire coat of arms with supporters, etc.)
The Spanish achievement is generally quite simple. It is composed of the shield, a cape which can be simply drawn or ornate, a helmet (optional) or a Crown if for a member of the Nobility and a motto (optional). In Spanish heraldry that which is placed on the shield is the most important.
In English, Scottish and Irish Heraldry one can find many additional accessories not found or used in Spanish Heraldry. They can include, in addition to the shield, a helmet, mantling (cloth cape), wreath (a circle of silk with gold and silver cord twisted around and placed to cover the joint between the helmet and crest), the crest, the motto, chapeau, supporters (animals real or fictitious or people holding up the shield), the compartment (whatever the supporters are standing on), standards and Ensigns (personal flags), Coronets of rank, insignia of orders of chivalry and badges.
These complicated achievements can be quite gaudy if not carefully and artistically done. In general the older the arms, the simpler or plainer is the achievement.
Cronista-Rey de Armas
The office of the King of Arms originated in that of the Heralds (Heraldos), whose job was to determine the arms each noble family was entitled to use, and arrange tournaments. The functions and duties of the King of Arms were clearly defined by the declarations of several Kings and are still in force today.
The post of King of Arms took several forms and eventually settled on a Corps of Chronicler King of Arms (Cuerpo de Rey de Armas) which was headed by an Elder or Dean (Decano). It usually consisted of four officers and two assistants or undersecretaries which usually acted as witnesses to documents. The entire corps wore a distinctive uniform. The corps were considered part of the royal household and was generally responsible to the Master of the King's stable (an important position in the middle ages)
Appointments to the Corps of King of Arms were made by the King or reigning Queen. These appointments were for life and while not intended to be hereditary, often went from father to son or other close family member. The Spanish Heralds had other duties which pertained to matters of protocol and often acted as royal messengers and emissaries.
In modern times the Corps of Chronicler King of Arms went through several changes. Important changes were made in 1915, it was abolished in 1931 and restored in 1947-1951. There were two Chronicler Kings of Arms and at least one undersecretary. Don Vicente de Cadenas y Vicent (Decano) and Don Alfonso Ceballos-Escalera y Gil, Marques de la Floresta (Chronicler of Arms for Castille and Leon)
Everything that the Spanish Heralds do must be approved by the Ministry of Grace and Justice.
Portuguese Heraldry
Heraldry developed in Portugal at about the same time as Spain, but it was not until the 15th century that Heralds were first appointed. In Portuguese Heraldry, only nobles were allowed to use metals, i.e, gold and silver (Or, Argent ) on their arms. Many burghers and peasants also used armorial bearings until 1512 when King Manuel I forbade the use of arms to everyone except the nobility.
Arms and all nobiliary matters were controlled by the Heralds until the fall of the monarchy in 1910. In 1945 the "Conselho de Nobreza" (Council of the Nobility) was formed under the authority of the Duke of Braganca, head of the Royal house of Portugal. The Duke of Braganca would be the present King of Portugal, if this country was a monarchy instead of a republic.
There are many works on Portuguese Heraldry, unfortunately none are in English. Portuguese Heraldry, while being similar to Spanish Heraldry, has some important differences. The few sources on the Internet are also in their native language. If you understand Portuguese, one of the best works on the heraldry of Portuguese noble families is the "Livro do Armeiro-Mor " by the King of Arms, Joao du Cros. The records of the Portuguese nobility and their arms are kept at the Arqhivo Nacional da Torre do Tombo in Lisbon.
Heraldry developed in Portugal at about the same time as Spain, but it was not until the 15th century that Heralds were first appointed. In Portuguese Heraldry, only nobles were allowed to use metals, i.e, gold and silver (Or, Argent ) on their arms. Many burghers and peasants also used armorial bearings until 1512 when King Manuel I forbade the use of arms to everyone except the nobility.
Arms and all nobiliary matters were controlled by the Heralds until the fall of the monarchy in 1910. In 1945 the "Conselho de Nobreza" (Council of the Nobility) was formed under the authority of the Duke of Braganca, head of the Royal house of Portugal. The Duke of Braganca would be the present King of Portugal, if this country was a monarchy instead of a republic.
There are many works on Portuguese Heraldry, unfortunately none are in English. Portuguese Heraldry, while being similar to Spanish Heraldry, has some important differences. The few sources on the Internet are also in their native language. If you understand Portuguese, one of the best works on the heraldry of Portuguese noble families is the "Livro do Armeiro-Mor " by the King of Arms, Joao du Cros. The records of the Portuguese nobility and their arms are kept at the Arqhivo Nacional da Torre do Tombo in Lisbon.
There's a lot of very iteresting information on this threa. It's too bad we don't knoew if this is what Paradox / Snowball is looking for (hint, hint).
Well thanks for the thoughts guys but what we are looking is in fact *exact ideas/info* for CoAs of the provinces in the areas Boris has outlined in his first post --
Irish, Scottish, Welsh counties, shires and towns
Northern Africa, from Morocco to Egypt, Syria, Arabia and Persia regions, as well as Asia Minor, Seljuk and Uzbek lands
Links to heraldry of France don't help, I'm sorry -- we have it already done and forgotten.
PS Me & Vladimir and Joakim shot 60 frames of film today in the Historical Museum's limited access library, excellent samples of medieval mythology from the real medieval maps...
Irish, Scottish, Welsh counties, shires and towns
Northern Africa, from Morocco to Egypt, Syria, Arabia and Persia regions, as well as Asia Minor, Seljuk and Uzbek lands
Links to heraldry of France don't help, I'm sorry -- we have it already done and forgotten
.PS Me & Vladimir and Joakim shot 60 frames of film today in the Historical Museum's limited access library, excellent samples of medieval mythology from the real medieval maps...
Like I said earlier I don´t think it´s possible. AFAIK the Moslems had personal CoAs (to a limited extent), but never developed CoAs associated with specific provinces. I hope I´m wrong though.
Otherwise I´d suggest hiring someone who can do Arabic calligraphy and write the names of the provinces on shields of red, green, black, or yellow.
Cheers,
Vandelay
I remember when Mad King James was working on his EU2 flags he had some info on the traditional colors for the countries of the Islamic world; Egypt had one color, Persia another, and so on. We need to dig up that info or get ahold of him and pass it on...
I have a clan badge map for Scotland, and old county map for Wales and Ireland...they are quite large actually...I could scan them...
Historiacl maps
Published by John Bartholomew & son ltd.
12 Duncan Street Edinburgh 9 Scotland.
Old maps...dont ask me if they are still there I dont know...
Bartholomew; ISBN: 0851525539 Wales and Monmouth
Bartholomew; ISBN: 0851525512 Ireland
Bartholomew; ISBN: 0851525520 Scotland
found these on net ddont know if still in print...may be worth having even a look at from a bookstore.
Historiacl maps
Published by John Bartholomew & son ltd.
12 Duncan Street Edinburgh 9 Scotland.
Old maps...dont ask me if they are still there I dont know...
Bartholomew; ISBN: 0851525539 Wales and Monmouth
Bartholomew; ISBN: 0851525512 Ireland
Bartholomew; ISBN: 0851525520 Scotland
found these on net ddont know if still in print...may be worth having even a look at from a bookstore.
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I don't know much about heraldry, but I can use google. So, since no one else is posting much:
I've been looking at the history of Wales for a different project; my guess on what the CK "counties" will be is: Gwynedd, Powys, Dyfed and Morgannwg. What do you mean by "shire" though, in the context of 1066?
For coats of arms, is this the sort of thing you're after? I don't know if there is any evidence that they are correct, and they are associated with people rather than provinces, but to keep the thread going...
Morgannwg: three silver chevronels on a red field, the arms attributed to Iestyn ap Gwrgant, the last Welsh ruler of Morgannwg [source]
Alternatively, three gold fleur-de-lis upon blue and black are the Arms of the ancient Kingdom of Gwent [source].
Powys: a black lion rampant on argent [source]
And for a complete 17th century Welsh coat of arms see here and here.
What about Gwynedd? As the most important Welsh state, you would think that it's CoA would be well known. Or is it the modern Welsh arms, the red dragon on white and green? Seeing as the Princes of Gwynedd later became Princes of Wales, this might be so, though I'm not sure whether the modern Welsh CoA is a later invention or not...
I've found four red and yellow lions, see http://www.baronage.co.uk/classic1/herart07.html or http://www.castlewales.com/glyndwr.html .
In some places these are called the lions of Gwynedd, and in others the arms of the prince of Wales. They seem to turn up first in the 13th century, when a prince of Gwynedd took the title of Prince of Wales.
I've seen some references to a single red lion on gold, or vice versa.,
I remember seeing Llywelyn's arms as part of a period illustration, but they were blurry and indistinct. I could tell it was something quarterly with something in each quarter. I would guess it would be the four lions as seen in the second of the sites you listed, as the arms of Glyndwr.
So that's Gwynedd, what about Deheubarth?
So that's Gwynedd, what about Deheubarth?
Looking at the sources listed above, it would appear that Deheubarth is a gold rampant lion on red with a gold border - the upper right of the Dyfed County Council arms here:
http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/wales_7496.html
Perhaps this is the reference to a single gold lion on red that Pishtaco has seen?
As for deciding on which of the the Glamorgan/Gwent arms to use, I would pick the Gwent arms as they are the arms of the native princes, while the Glamorgan ones are of a later Norman family...
http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/wales_7496.html
Perhaps this is the reference to a single gold lion on red that Pishtaco has seen?
As for deciding on which of the the Glamorgan/Gwent arms to use, I would pick the Gwent arms as they are the arms of the native princes, while the Glamorgan ones are of a later Norman family...
OK, to recap for Wales:
Gwynedd: Quarterly gold and red, with lions of the opposing color in each quarter
Powys: Black lion rampant on argent
Deheubarth: Gold lion rampant on red with a gold border
Morgannwg: Three gold fleur-de-lis on blue and black.
OK, what about Ireland? I've seen illustrations of the CoAs for the four big kingdoms, but I don't remember exactly what they are other than Ulster has a red hand and Leinster's is similar to the arms of the Kingdom of Ireland witha harp, but the color scheme is different...
Gwynedd: Quarterly gold and red, with lions of the opposing color in each quarter
Powys: Black lion rampant on argent
Deheubarth: Gold lion rampant on red with a gold border
Morgannwg: Three gold fleur-de-lis on blue and black.
OK, what about Ireland? I've seen illustrations of the CoAs for the four big kingdoms, but I don't remember exactly what they are other than Ulster has a red hand and Leinster's is similar to the arms of the Kingdom of Ireland witha harp, but the color scheme is different...
