Interest and development thread for a new Kingdom game

[unmerged(138457)]

This really looks promising. I just read the whole thread for the firts time and I am excited. Couple of point though.

Ser Walder had made the Wilderling village of ((something Finnish)) his personal seat.

I could lend a hand, if you ever happen to need help with coming up 'something Finnish'

Lady Ansa (nee Mustapata): age 24. Daughter of Otso “the Old” Mustapata by his third wife.

In the earlier OT thread the mentioned family name was Mustaparta meaning Blackbeard. Mustapata on the other hand means Blackpot, which is actually quite good as well

 

[Deaghaidh]

This really looks promising. I just read the whole thread for the firts time and I am excited. Couple of point though.


I could lend a hand, if you ever happen to need help with coming up 'something Finnish'


In the earlier OT thread the mentioned family name was Mustaparta meaning Blackbeard. Mustapata on the other hand means Blackpot, which is actually quite good as well

I could definitely use some Finnish-like place names. Both true Finnish, and something mangled into being pronouncable by English-speakers. Castles, towns churches/monestaries, families, really anything.

Black Pot vs Black Beard, hmmm. Black Pot sounds like it has an interesting story behind it.

 

[Deaghaidh]

Shifting gears slightly, a word about gameplay:

At the start of the game we'll have a parliment to deal with the fact that the King is no longer able to rule and has no obvious heir. The players will need to select a Regent to exercise royal power, as well as a High Council (Chancellor, Marshall, Treasurer, Chief Justice). Having those titles will bestow some practical advantages as well as prestige.

The other big question is obviously who will be the heir. I'm thinking we introduce a bunch of potential heirs: a couple of illegitimate grandsons, competing legitimate granddaughters, a brother exiled for treason, another brother who renounced his claim to pursue a church career, and likely two daughters married to foreign kings. The claimants will be NPCs (at least to start) for players to compete for influence over.

 

[Mr. Santiago]

I want the Fenlands, Uppland and Norwald to be a relatively remote region where crown power is fairly weak

You might wanna clarify that part a bit, because right now I read it as Darkwood, Norwald and Uppland beeing playable and with lords of equal rank.... The northern border might get a bit crowded, IMHO.

I'd rather see the capitol on the southernmost river system, just between the confluence of tributaries and the start of the delta region. My reasons are twofold, 1. I want the Fenlands, Uppland and Norwald to be a relatively remote region where crown power is fairly weak. The second is that the history I'm working on calls for a conqueror to come from the "France" analog like William the Conqueror. Coming from the south, he'd logically make his center of power in the best parts of the south. That southern river valley has solid natural defenses without being isolated from the rest of the country.

Ok, so this is the general idea for the south, apologies for the crappy paint.

The Crownlands being the direct demense of the King. The Dawnlands as the ruling house of the south-eastern coast. Summervale being a wealthy lordship centered on the Sumerwyne River valley.

Still leaves a good deal of white space. I can see a major lordship along the southern coast between the crownlands, the mountains and the Dawnlands. The Islands off the west coast could easily be another one. Otherwise I'm running out of ideas, so submissions welcome!

I have crests for the Dawnlands and Summervale. The Dawnlands crest is a silver sword over three red suns, with the motto "Par vigilance, paix." (credit to Thirdfain). Still need a good dynasty name and likewise names for holdings (particularly their main castle). They're a house with their roots in the conquest and close ties to the royal house. Summervale's crest is this: (Credit Gen. Schurmann) with the motto "Every rose has thorns." They're the High Chivalry house, fames for knights, tourneys, courtly love and troubadours and whatnot.

I'm adding those places to the map as we speak. I've created 3 small counties ala Berford, one between the Middlands and Summervale and the two other in the souther coast. Might leave the site names in blank as I'm not too inspired today

 

[Mr. Santiago]

So, I've added a few names here and there, unfortunately I wasn't too inspired.

UNNAMED NORTHERN COUNTY: Similar geoghraphy than Bernford, it has the mist mountains as a southen border. It is a vassal of Summervale
Guy's Pitt (town): A small mining site, since the iron ore in the surrounding hills run out, it is slowly decaying.
Ippkins (town): Established in the Upper Glauborne valley, where the Crownway turns south to cross the mountains. The area around it is still rich in ore, so most people are either miners or blacksmiths.

SUMMERVALE
Turford (castle, anglicized from the french 'strong tower'): castle that controls the Crownway's pass through the mountains into the Sumerwyne valley, is the key to separate southern Neumark from the north
Agricor (city, taken from some dark arthurian knight)
2 unnamed towns

CROWNLANDS
Capitol: over the Sassen river
Unnamed castle east of the capitol
Unnamed town in the upper Sassen
Sassenmouth (town): the island's main southern port, home of most of the royal navy

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

Looks nice. For some reason I fell in love with Uppland, despite I`ve never been in Sweden.

 

[unmerged(138457)]

I could definitely use some Finnish-like place names. Both true Finnish, and something mangled into being pronouncable by English-speakers. Castles, towns churches/monestaries, families, really anything.

As we want something with actual meanings(?) and not too long or 'hard' words, I guess I could make a little list of real county/city/place names that could be helpful. The literal meaning is in the brackets and I colour branded the words so you can distinguish the Finnish compound words a bit easier.

Hailuoto (Shark Islet)
Joensuu (River's Mouth)
Käkisalmi (Cuckoo Strait)
Outukumpu (Odd Knoll)
Enontekiö (Uncle Maker)
Tammisaari (Oak Island)
Kaaresuvanto (Curve Pool)
Savitaipale (Clay Passage)
Oripää (Stallion Head/Point)
Salo (Deep Woods)
Mustasaari (Black Island)
Pyhäjärvi (Holy Lake)
Haukipudas (Pike Fork)
Kyyjärvi (Viper Lake)
Hammastunturi (Tooth Fjeld)
Kaunispää (Fair Point/Head)
Kiilopää (Shine Point/Head)
Rautavaara (Iron Hill)
Rovaniemi (Stony Cape)
Sodankylä (War's Village)
Haisujärvi (Stink Lake)
Heinävesi (Hay Water)
Kirkkonummi (Church Moor)
Mäntyharju (Pine Ridge)
Äänekoski (Sound Rapid)
Punkalaidun (Pimpernel Pasture)

Finnish castles and forts are usually named after the place where they are. You just use the name in itself or add another descriptive word to accompany it. Like linna (castle/fort), linnake (fort), linnoitus (fortress), torni (tower), valli (rampart/dike/wall), muuri (wall), asema (post), tukikohta (stronghold), vartija (guard/lookout). You will probably need to do some minor conjugations if you add those words, but that is a whole another story.
(The conjugations wont take long and if you need a few castles I can edit them here tomorrow. Though I would like some more preferences. Wooden mottes? Near water? Inside woods or up on the high hills? etc.
I can also come up with appropriate family names, but those can be almost anything e.g. Mustapata )

 

[Deaghaidh]

Been off my game the last several days due to a medication issue. But great work everyone.

Regarding castles, all of the above!

I've decided to demote Darkwood from Great Lordship to vassal of Uppland, and make its lady the King's eldest surviving Granddaughter. She has a bastard half-brother who is a landed knight in Norwald. The other late prince I'm thinking ruled the Dawnlands. The Dawnlands could be a bit bigger, adding on the space between the hills and the north-east coast, while the as-yet-unnamed lordship in light blue could expand into the white space between it and the Crownlands.

@ Stuckenshmidt, feel free to contribute to fleshing out the Upplands. All I've got on them so far is that it's mountanous, and that it's current ruler was very unhappily married to a royal prince. Their daughter is the Widow in the Wood.

I don't have a name for the Upplands house yet, but I'm rather fond of Sueca's proposed heraldry from the Sigil thread, a Gryphon with the motto IVSTITIA ET LIBERTAS (Justice and Liberty). Their full cermonial title being "Lords of Mount and Vale" I'm thinking maybe their main holding is a castle/town built on the ruins of an old "Roman" border fort. I'm also thinking gryphons might actually be real in this world as wild animals that occasionally steal sheep.

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

Thoughts on Uppland

Ruling family called Skutling. Rules since the Dark Ages. First Prince allegedly killed a Gryphon all alone, since then some kind of bond between the family and these creatures.

One of the first Princes founded the old capital Skutholm (near that lake), but was moved sometime in the last century to the newly erected city of Vasterby (port city somewhere along the coast).

The actual situation is, that there is a shift in Uppland`s society. While the Ruler tries to "modernize" the country and favors the urban population (merchants, craftsmen), a more traditional faction of rural landowners, that had the most power in the Ruler`s council so far, feels threatened.

Although the Ruler is not really questioned, there are rumors about someone (allegedly a bastard son of the Ruler`s dead brother) stirring up the people in the villages in the most eastern parts of the realm, who seems to get support from Darkwood.

 

[Deaghaidh]

Thoughts on Uppland

Ruling family called Skutling. Rules since the Dark Ages. First Prince allegedly killed a Gryphon all alone, since then some kind of bond between the family and these creatures.

One of the first Princes founded the old capital Skutholm (near that lake), but was moved sometime in the last century to the newly erected city of Vasterby (port city somewhere along the coast).

The actual situation is, that there is a shift in Uppland`s society. While the Ruler tries to "modernize" the country and favors the urban population (merchants, craftsmen), a more traditional faction of rural landowners, that had the most power in the Ruler`s council so far, feels threatened.

Although the Ruler is not really questioned, there are rumors about someone (allegedly a bastard son of the Ruler`s dead brother) stirring up the people in the villages in the most eastern parts of the realm, who seems to get support from Darkwood.

I like it, except I'd see support for the bastard son of the late prince coming from Norwald. With the ruler of Darkwood being the legitimate child of the current Lady Skutling, supporting a bastard claimant would be self-destructive.

 

[Deaghaidh]

If anyone knows of a good way to make family trees, I'd appreciate finding it out.

Anyways

House Verens: Kings of Neumark
Sigil: A lion surrounded by tones by light brown and pale gold
Words: UNUM MUNDUM POST ALIUM - One world after another

House Verens traces its decent to Consus the Great, last Emperor of Valtheon. They share this claim with House Galen, Kings of Gallus. Verens trace their decent from Consus' third son, while Galens trace their decent through his eldest daughter. The houses were in nearly contant competition for the crown of Gallus until slightly more than 300 years ago. Then House Verens was afflicted by its own civil war between the twins Leonard and Leoric. In the ensuing battle Leonard slew Leoric. Church leaders condemned Leonard, declaring him anathema for the mortal sin of Kinslaying, and annointed Leoric's infant son as the legitimate lord of House Verens, with the King of Gallus as his guardian.

Rather than continue his war in the face of his own family, the crown and the church, Leonard looked for a way out of his dillemma. He found it in a missive from the beleagured Proxy of Sasenmouth. The High Church was under serious threat from the warlords of Neumark. Harald the Apostate had succeeded his father St Harald, and was actively attacking the Church and martyring its converts. The Proxy's plea was answered by the Primus; the Highest Father decreed that those who took up arms in defense of the faith would be pardoned of their sins.

Leonard crossed the channel with his loyal followers, and destroyed Harald the Apostate's forces. He was subsequently annointed King of Neumark, and event that was later made the starting point of the modern calendar. Leonard the Conqueror would in time unite all the petty kingdoms of the island by sword and by diplomacy.

In the 300 years since, House Verens has ruled, sometimes wisely and strongly, sometimes not.

King Roland II
Coming to the throne young, Roland II was a strong and competant King. That's all changed with the coming of the Creeping Death. The King survived the plague, but his sons were less fortunate. Grief, age and illness have sapped his strength and left him enfeebled and confused.

Queen Consort Ermengarde
deceased ten years ago, Ermengarde was a sister to the King of Estheim, and bore King Roland two sons and two daughters:

Serlo, Prince of Uppland
Recently deceased, the former heir appearant married the heiress of the powerful Lord of mount and Vale. While good politics, it was a poor marriage.
Serlo had two legitmate children: a son Rodrick (deceased, plague) and a daughter, now Lady Aerlene Faye. He had one acknowledged bastard son, Ser Drogo of Salo, vassal of his foster father the Lord of Norwald.

Eleanor, Queen of Gallus.
Married to King Jean IV of Gallus as part of a peace deal. She has three children by her royal husband, Jean, Louis, and Roland

Margaret, Princess of Estheim.
Married to her second cousin Prince Mauger, heir appearant of the King of Estheim. By him she has four children: Otto, Freidrich, Adeleide and Constance.

Bohemond, Prince of Dawnlands
Recently deceased, Bohemond was granted his treacherous unlce Robert's fief after he was exiled for treason. Married to Lillian, maid of Summervale, youngest daughter of his neighbor the Lord of Summer. They have one son, three year old Rodger. A popular lord and highly successful tourney knight.


The King has two younger brothers, both still living:

Prince Robert, formerly Prince of Dawnlands.
Exiled after a failed coup attempt. Despite renouncing his claims in his surrender to his brother, he continues to style himself King Robert and insists that King Roland is in fact a bastard. Has spent the past fourteen years moving from court to court overseas in an effort to find support for his claim on the throne. His brother's diplomatic efforts have made this fruitless so far. Never married, but fathered several bastard children throughout Gallus, Estheim and Valtheon.

Proxy Alonsius of Sasenmouth (born Albert Verens)
Schooled almost from birth for a church career, Alonsius formally renounced his worldly inheritance when he took his vows. Despite this, everyone is well aware of his royal roots, which are more than a little responsible for his rapid ascent up the clerical hierarchy. By most accounts he is a competant scholar and scrupulous follower of his vows of poverty and chastity. By tradition, the Proxy of Sasenmouth has a seat in the high council.

 

[Mr. Santiago]

Added a few places & names in the map, specially Stuckenschmidt's ideas on Upland

Also, came up with a title for House Harald, Lord of the Shire

 

[unmerged(138457)]

Few ideas about the Norwald. Which is the place where you need all this wildling language, right?

It seems that the Norwald is not very approachable from the south. The White Mountains (Valkovuoret in the wildling language) and the forests should make it a rough and hard going country. Instead the connection with Uppland seems to be much easier. That is also the way from which you said Ser Walder Alton came to conquer the Norwald and from where most of the wildling raids and counter raids were conducted.

So I think we need a vassal with a little castle as a 'road watcher' in the southern border. And another with a bit larger keep near the Upplands to hold the raiders at bay. Rautavaaran Vartio (Iron Hill Watch) on the northern ridges of the White Mountains and Salotorni (Forest Tower) in the western woods near Uppland.

The Snowmelt (Lumisula) is a clear safety hazard. The Southern fleets could just sail up the coast and along the river all the way to the seat of House Alton. At least during the spring floods and if the attacker has light ships. That's why I suggest that there would be another town at the mouth of the river and a blocking fort in the nearest island on the bay. Respective names could be Käkisalmi (Cuckoo Strait) and Pesälinna (Nestfort). The fort would not need to be large. Just able to block fleets (or subsequent supply vessels) from entering the river and strong enough to resist any landing attempts until the next winter when the bay freezes over.

Btw, about the seat of House Alton. The conqueror Ser Walder was called the hunter and his sigil is antlers so how about Sodankylä (War's Village) and Riistalinna (Game Castle)?

Also, feel free to disregard anything you don't like. I won't be offended at all

 

[Deaghaidh]

Few ideas about the Norwald. Which is the place where you need all this wildling language, right?

It seems that the Norwald is not very approachable from the south. The White Mountains (Valkovuoret in the wildling language) and the forests should make it a rough and hard going country. Instead the connection with Uppland seems to be much easier. That is also the way from which you said Ser Walder Alton came to conquer the Norwald and from where most of the wildling raids and counter raids were conducted.

So I think we need a vassal with a little castle as a 'road watcher' in the southern border. And another with a bit larger keep near the Upplands to hold the raiders at bay. Rautavaaran Vartio (Iron Hill Watch) on the northern ridges of the White Mountains and Salotorni (Forest Tower) in the western woods near Uppland.

The Snowmelt (Lumisula) is a clear safety hazard. The Southern fleets could just sail up the coast and along the river all the way to the seat of House Alton. At least during the spring floods and if the attacker has light ships. That's why I suggest that there would be another town at the mouth of the river and a blocking fort in the nearest island on the bay. Respective names could be Käkisalmi (Cuckoo Strait) and Pesälinna (Nestfort). The fort would not need to be large. Just able to block fleets (or subsequent supply vessels) from entering the river and strong enough to resist any landing attempts until the next winter when the bay freezes over.

Btw, about the seat of House Alton. The conqueror Ser Walder was called the hunter and his sigil is antlers so how about Sodankylä (War's Village) and Riistalinna (Game Castle)?

Also, feel free to disregard anything you don't like. I won't be offended at all

I like it all. Only thing is the castles on the Uppland side of the passes need non-wilderling names, though the wilderlings would obviously have their own nicknames for them. So we need to Saxonize, Celticize or Latinize Iron Hill Watch and Forest Tower. I'm saying we call the passes in the Uppland-Norwald border the Reaver's Roads (though there's no actual roads).

Speaking of which, the Crownway should stop at the north edge of the Darkwood, as until recently that was the edge of the world as far as Neumark was concerned. A modest castle (Forest Tower) there makes sense.

I say House Alton's seat is Ristalinna (English speakers don't tend to use the double-i). Pesalinna is good for the wilderling town on the river.

Regarding the Lord of the Shire, my first reaction is "too hobbity." In any case wouldn't Shire be a commonplace unit of territory? I rather like "Lord of Hearth and Harvest."

I'm also thinking we need to move the king's younger late son out of the Dawnlands. Otherwise Summervale starts with too strong a position, with a vassal to their north and an infant nephew (and likely pretender) to their south. The as-yet-undefined blue-green land east of the Crownlands looks good for him, as a vassal of Dawnlands.

For balance reasons, I think each Great Lord needs one major vassal, along with the holdings in their own territory. I'm thinking the Great Lords (the ones to be filled by players first) should be Norwald, Uppland, Fenland, Midland, Summervale and Dawnland. Possibly one more, a nautical power on those western islands with a vassal in the penninsula due west of Fenland. Fenland needs a major vassal, so I think maybe the river valley and east side of the lake, inland to a bit past the road.

That still leaves us with a fair amount of blank land. I'm thinking we can leave part of it empty as The Barrens, a rough analog to Ireland's Burren or the Scottish Highlands: a hard land filled with many small, highly contentious clans with chiefs that are theoretically subject to the crown. A potential source of raiders against or allies for players, but not playable themselves.

 

[Mr. Santiago]

I like it all. Only thing is the castles on the Uppland side of the passes need non-wilderling names, though the wilderlings would obviously have their own nicknames for them. So we need to Saxonize, Celticize or Latinize Iron Hill Watch and Forest Tower. I'm saying we call the passes in the Uppland-Norwald border the Reaver's Roads (though there's no actual roads).

Speaking of which, the Crownway should stop at the north edge of the Darkwood, as until recently that was the edge of the world as far as Neumark was concerned. A modest castle (Forest Tower) there makes sense.

I say House Alton's seat is Ristalinna (English speakers don't tend to use the double-i). Pesalinna is good for the wilderling town on the river.

Regarding the Lord of the Shire, my first reaction is "too hobbity." In any case wouldn't Shire be a commonplace unit of territory? I rather like "Lord of Hearth and Harvest."

I'm also thinking we need to move the king's younger late son out of the Dawnlands. Otherwise Summervale starts with too strong a position, with a vassal to their north and an infant nephew (and likely pretender) to their south. The as-yet-undefined blue-green land east of the Crownlands looks good for him, as a vassal of Dawnlands.

For balance reasons, I think each Great Lord needs one major vassal, along with the holdings in their own territory. I'm thinking the Great Lords (the ones to be filled by players first) should be Norwald, Uppland, Fenland, Midland, Summervale and Dawnland. Possibly one more, a nautical power on those western islands with a vassal in the penninsula due west of Fenland. Fenland needs a major vassal, so I think maybe the river valley and east side of the lake, inland to a bit past the road.

That still leaves us with a fair amount of blank land. I'm thinking we can leave part of it empty as The Barrens, a rough analog to Ireland's Burren or the Scottish Highlands: a hard land filled with many small, highly contentious clans with chiefs that are theoretically subject to the crown. A potential source of raiders against or allies for players, but not playable themselves.

For balance's sake, Norwald should have no more than 3 locations besides the capital, since it's what we've been adding... How am I going to cramp in the map is another thing. I'm thinking of 2 castles, one bordering each neighbor. I'm OK with cutting the Crownway at the border.

I knew that I got that name from somewhere! .
Let's stick with yours instead.

I agree that we should add another Great Lord in the western islands (Fireland?, since it has the active volcanoes), with a vassal just west of Fenland. Also, the unnamed-bluish-green-vassal goes to the Dawnlands and that's it. All the Great ones would have a vassal (I'll be adding Fenland's once there is some certainty about it).

That does leave the problem of filling the east and west coast. My idea was to add some NPC counties so as not to leave it blank... Besides it'd give players another thing to fight over for.

 

[Deaghaidh]

Maybe we could rough-translate "Ash Islands" into Old Norse for the islands?

Regarding NPC counties, we can have some of them be vassals of the church. I'd kind of like to have two or three "princes of the Church" to meddle with things. Perhaps one in the north-east blank spot, and one in the hills west of Summervale. The empty room in the mountains of mist can have my Highlanders.

4 holdings per great lordship sounds like a good rule of thumb.

 

[Mr. Santiago]

I'm trying to fill the map, with some NPCs here and there, will post tomorrow

 

[Spitfire5793]

I can't wait. This is awesome.

Will each lord still be specialised in certain army unit?

 

[Mr. Santiago]

Alright, I've made a few additions:

Eoforshire
Vassanl of the Fenlands. Northern end of the flatlands, here the soil is not so fertile anymore so it's mostly a moorland, on the other side of the Varberry River trees start appearing here and there, until the darkwood commences, just south of Barrowgate. The folk that lives here dedicates to either sheep hearding in the south or hunting the wildlife in the north.
Hightower (castle). Built in the Mercian hills (a small prelude of the White Mountains in the middle of the flattness), it's a keep on top of a steep mouintain, with low stone walls and the tower that grants its name. On a clear day one can see the Dun Lake and Cluchdun on the other side, on a clear night, one can see Eofor's lights.
Eofor (city): It used to be the ((Roman)) capital of the north. From that day the city and it's walls endure (which is an oddity for Neumark). Built on the souther bank of the river, at the point where it becomes navigable by small sailboats, a skilled and brave boatmaster can even sail to Glorket, if he can make it past the Fenlands. It lives on the High Church's cathedral and trading wool from the countriside, wheat from the south and lumber and furs from the north. With Glorket they are the two main cities of Central Neumark, and their rivalry is well known. Crossing it's ancient bridge over the Varberry there lies the Citadel, an ancient fortification by the walls. There are two gates: the eastern gives way to the Crownway heading north, the western does to the secondary road that connects Uppland

Besides, I've split the remainder of the land in unnamed territories.
A: the last great loordship, maritimal.
B: A's vassal on the mainland
C, D & E: NPCs counties
F: Dawnland's Vassal
G & H: NPCs counties
I: Deagh's woodsmen
There are also a few unnamed cities.

 

[misiame]

Mr. Santiago, I must ask about the far northern region. Will this be an area that the wildings come from or will other lords be placed there? I had an idea on the northern areas.

My idea is that a tribal kingdom is there. Chiefs have their own land but they all pay loyalty to a High King. The High King's capitol can be located by the largest lake in the north with the river flowing into it.
The tribes of the north dislike the southern kingdoms especially Norwald because of the recent war between them. They signed a peace treaty where the northern tribes seceded the northern portion of the Snowmelt river.
I don't know what culture the northern tribes will be but if we are going to have a finnish-like culture in the southern regions, then maybe a Sami-like culture can be the culture.