Interregnum: Ngagheln

[orimazd]

There will be no new map for Interregnum.

You can't transpose just part of WATK3 or MyMap. It's all or nothing. And with this small and diminishing team, the chances of getting all the province details, ownership and updating all of the events to match the new map are ... um ... unlikely before 2010.

I figured it wouldn't happen, though it would have been incredibly cool to do it. I'm fine with it though.

Lot's of things are unlikely, but the Maya empire stretched over more than one vanilla province, and Azteca built enough alliances and tribute states to expand beyond the Tenochtitlan province, so why not Ben Zaa?

The Maya were not one unified entity, but instead were a bunch of city-states. We can change that in Interregnum easily by making it so that they all swore fealty to one king or whatever they called their leader and gave up their autonomy because of the droughts or whatever that destroyed them in real life and it stayed that way. But in the Vanilla map the Aztecs IRL would control two provinces, Zacatecas and the one below Michoagan. It just couldn't be done any other way, and that second province joined with Tenochtitlan willingly so that some group or other would leave them alone--there was a lot of colonization from Tenochtitlan because the city was getting overcrowded, which only made the area grow closer. This was the only place really which could not have been called a vassal state out of all the territory the Aztecs "controlled." Not even Lake Texcoco was unified under the Mexica, though Motecuzoma made steps to do such a thing and realistically had the Spanish not shown up it could have ended up one entity, after a long long time.

Anyways, I'll give you the Aztec alternate history--the Mexica never left the desert of the North, and remained Chichimecame. Texcoco will be the dominant power in the region--thing is, were it the navel of the Nahuatl world and it had sufficient military power to back it up (something realistic under Nezahualcoyotl and his son Nezahualpilli, who were both poet-philosopher-kings--and Nezahualpilli's heir was showing all the signs of being like his father and grandfather), it would require a CoT. I would want neither the Zapotec nor Texcoco to conquer the other, which means that neither would be imperialistic over the other as the Mexica were over the entire region (there was a certain cultural imperialism as well--the pochtecame, traders who wandered all over Mexico, were responsible for this coca-colonization as its called today...but their money was chocolate beans, so would it be cacao-colonization [ZING!]? :rofl: man I'm funny). Problem is, you can't have three centers of trade in so few provinces, really, because it makes them all worthless.

 

[MattyG]

I figured it wouldn't happen, though it would have been incredibly cool to do it. I'm fine with it though.

Agreed. India needs it even more badly.

The Maya were not one unified entity, but instead were a bunch of city-states. We can change that in Interregnum easily by making it so that they all swore fealty to one king or whatever they called their leader and gave up their autonomy because of the droughts or whatever that destroyed them in real life and it stayed that way.

Great. Let's say that happened. But if you don't want the Ben Zaa to be as big as they are, you need to help me find why the Maya spread to the Caribean rather than continue to dominate the mainland. The Maya as a unified state actually makes more sense in Interregnum, because the colonizing may have stemmed from largely one or maybe two city states and would have been more unified/centralized as a result. Anyway, perhaps we create another Maya-culture state ...

Anyways, I'll give you the Aztec alternate history--the Mexica never left the desert of the North, and remained Chichimecame. Texcoco will be the dominant power in the region--thing is, were it the navel of the Nahuatl world and it had sufficient military power to back it up (something realistic under Nezahualcoyotl and his son Nezahualpilli, who were both poet-philosopher-kings--and Nezahualpilli's heir was showing all the signs of being like his father and grandfather), it would require a CoT. I would want neither the Zapotec nor Texcoco to conquer the other, which means that neither would be imperialistic over the other as the Mexica were over the entire region (there was a certain cultural imperialism as well--the pochtecame, traders who wandered all over Mexico, were responsible for this coca-colonization as its called today...but their money was chocolate beans, so would it be cacao-colonization [ZING!]? :rofl: man I'm funny). Problem is, you can't have three centers of trade in so few provinces, really, because it makes them all worthless.

Yes, very clever. I like this alternate history. But I think you are actually right about the CoTs. They are a relative tool. We could start with four in the region and that would be fine. Remember that until nations get to trade level 3 the main value for the CoT is the trade taxes, which max out at 60 ducats per year if a CoT has a full complement of merchants. This is what makes them so desireable early in the game. Actually owning CoTs by the 1700s is irrelevant compared to how much the merchants earn and your province taxes, but its the reverse in 1419.

The important thing will be that the region loses all but one CoT when the Europeans arrive and they join the trans-Atlantic economy. The game currently has 25 CoTs at game start with two that can form in Europe after that point for a total of 27 reserved. That means we can spare two more slots for Central America and one for somewhere else, at least initially.

Matty

 

[orimazd]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this post.

Great. Let's say that happened. But if you don't want the Ben Zaa to be as big as they are, you need to help me find why the Maya spread to the Caribean rather than continue to dominate the mainland. The Maya as a unified state actually makes more sense in Interregnum, because the colonizing may have stemmed from largely one or maybe two city states and would have been more unified/centralized as a result. Anyway, perhaps we create another Maya-culture state ...

I like the idea of another Mayan state; one could consist entirely of Cuba and Mayapan, and the other could be Haiti and some other city. Both have their capitals controlled by the Ben Zaa and are given the option to cut loose from the mainland for the time being. As cuban emigrants can create rafts made out of a couple dead trees and swim to florida (albeit, in desperation), I think that the Cuban Mayans could see (for colonizing), say, florida and the gulf of Mexico, and the Haitian one can see the windward islands. Call the Haitians Q'eqa Ajaw(Black lords, because they are to the west--black was the color of west on the mayan compass, and...they can be of an older migration from an older threat, perhaps, and have been driven off Cuba by a newer migration which had essentially forgotten the older one...), and the Cubans, who can be the ones who leave behind human sacrifice, can be called Sotz Ajaw, or Bat lords, because of a symbol you find on a lot of classical mayan buildings with the royalty. I might propose a third mayan state, I will explain why in a little bit, calling themselves Raxa Uk'ux, or Center Heart.

What just came up in my mind was an idea, where a long time ago, say around 1000 AD, two city states became increasingly powerful and influential over neighboring politics. Their areas of influence split the mayan lands from Guatemala to Yucatan in half (though their influence over surrounding city-states was only so strong as that of the Mexica over Texcoco or Tacuba (I think it was them, like 55% sure), but those three states formed the Triple Alliance, with Tenochtitlan essentially in charge of it. Anyways, these two cities came to be at war with each other as things come to pass, and the Sotz Ajaw defeated the Q'eqa Ajaw. Much like Romans salting the soil of Carthage, the Sotz Ajaw evicted forcefully the Q'eqa Ajaw and many of their powerful allies, off into the ocean (and to whatever may lie ahead...you know, like Cuba). the Q'eqa Ajaw spread throughout Cuba and Haiti essentially as a decentralized single state, though as far as the Sotz Ajaw were concerned they were gone forever. Fast forward 350 years, when the power of the Sotz Ajaw was beginning to wane (well, was well on its way down). A rebellious city, with the help of the Ben Zaa king who currently has almost completely kicked out the Maya in Interregnum (I forget his name), do the same thing to the Sotz Ajaw, forcefully sending them off into the ocean as the Sotz Ajaw did to the Q'eqa Ajaw so many years earlier. The evictors of this war call themselves the center and heart of the world as virtually any successful empire-state has done with their capital (London, Paris, Qosqo, Rome, etc)

The thing about this is that each eviction causes an ideological shift from a smaller city mentality into a group mentality...call it something like ethnic nationalism, but not quite. The dominating city and its allies expelled at first begin calling themselves the Black Lords, after the only direction they can see themselves going (I would suggest the continuation of human sacrifice and other grim practices exist with these people in Haiti, as the black road leading west is also called xibalba road, which is the mayan word for the underworld).

The next group of people, when evicted, come across the Black Lords, who are just as forgiving towards the bat lords as the bat lords were to them. War ensues, and the lack of any equal enemy on Cuba and Haiti gives them a terrible disadvantage which causes them to lose a lot of the island. When all the cities are made equals and forced to fight new enemies, they will either tear themselves apart or unite against their common enemy, and this is how I see it. Were this scenario used, these would be the people who would recieve all your old events for the Maya (minus the ones that went for all of them), and they are who I would see as becoming the new power in the region, as they were before.

The Raxa Ux'uq will merely be pawns of the Ben Zaa, and should become part of the ben zaa through constant intervention eventually leading to annexation.

This idea came to me while I was sitting on the toilet. I wanted you to know that.

I like this alternate history.

Unfortunately I don't see myself actually programming anything until maybe thanksgiving break. If not until Christmas. I don't even have time to PLAY the game right now. Or I do, but I would rather spend it on stuff like my social life, which I don't have one of when I am home with my family.

The important thing will be that the region loses all but one CoT when the Europeans arrive and they join the trans-Atlantic economy. The game currently has 25 CoTs at game start with two that can form in Europe after that point for a total of 27 reserved. That means we can spare two more slots for Central America and one for somewhere else, at least initially.

There is a limit on the number of CoTs you can have in game? Anyways, I would have the disappearance of the CoTs happen a few years after the discovery of a european power. I mean, its not like it would happen otherwise. In my Mayan scenario the CoT would also be in Otzimo, which would be the capital of the Black Lords (the Bat people would own the rest of Cuba).

Matty[/QUOTE]

 

[orimazd]

I assume that with the deadline this isn't going to be in the possibilities at all?

When EU3 comes out, are we going to transfer all our effort into working on that version of Interregnum rather than this one? Is that the primary reason for us finishing the EU2 version in November?

I know, its a lot of questions, but busy stuff is flaring up again (if it ever died down!) so I might as well ask these question when I can. Plus I think you may have not seen what I wrote here, or just didn't want to comment on it (its a lot of big changes I proposed that I don't think I will be able to work on before this is finished).

 

[MattyG]

I did mean to comment at the time, but I needed to carefully re-read it, which I did, and then also got distracted.

First, the November deadline is for me, rather than anyone else. I want to have the non-beta launched then. Having it come out once EU3 is available is pointless. Maybe having it out for December will generate enough attention that we will attract some more fols to help with the EU3 version.

It's also a matter of my life changing and I will have (even) less time for the mod. It's also a goal I set myself, and while the mod is far from the finished and polished product I envisaged, it's still great.

So, after that date I will add little things if I have time, I will fix bugs and will add any FULLY COMPLETED material as it arrives.

For the above ideas, there were two points.

The first was that I'd prefer to see you working on Cacoal as the priority. Maya works. But Cacoal is new material and the arrival of smallpox and sunni religion through them is a cornerstone of how things would be different.

The other point is that there are many possible different structures for the 1419 set up, but the one you express up here I am less drawn to. I would rather not have both the Maya's being seafaring. One can be mainland, the other on the Islands, the latter being able to maintain their independence only because they can isolate themselves, at least militarily. The game could start with a civil war under way, warring cities if you like, and with both of them at war with the Ben Zaa maybe.

Matty

 

[orimazd]

So, after that date I will add little things if I have time, I will fix bugs and will add any FULLY COMPLETED material as it arrives.

For the above ideas, there were two points.

The first was that I'd prefer to see you working on Cacoal as the priority. Maya works. But Cacoal is new material and the arrival of smallpox and sunni religion through them is a cornerstone of how things would be different.

That first part I definitely needed to know, and am relived. And as for the second one, so be it.

The other point is that there are many possible different structures for the 1419 set up, but the one you express up here I am less drawn to. I would rather not have both the Maya's being seafaring. One can be mainland, the other on the Islands, the latter being able to maintain their independence only because they can isolate themselves, at least militarily. The game could start with a civil war under way, warring cities if you like, and with both of them at war with the Ben Zaa maybe.

Matty

I'll worry about this part later, I guess. If at all.

 

[MattyG]

For the Maya, once we have the cacoal material designed and inserted and functioning, we can think about it more then, along with the redraft of the rest of that region.

Probably your ideas, when fleshed out more, will make more sense to me.