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Emre Yigit

Creeping out of Covid hibernation
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Jun 13, 2001
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Sorry if this has been answered before, but I did search and could not find an answer.

My question is this: is inflation really inflation or is it a price index.

I.e. when it says I have inflation of 10%, does that mean prices rise 10% each year, or that my price index is 110, with 1492=100?
 
inflation

Hmm, this really explained a lot for a poor newbie like me (at least I think it did). So prices don't increase continuously when you have an "inflation" of say 5%, but things are 5% more expensive? If so, this isn't really inflation, is it? And if this is the case, decreasing your inflation by building governors really amounts to deflation?

Well, I am not a very experienced EU-player (or computer gamer), so I might have gotten it all wrong. Would be nice if someone with more insight than me would be able to elaborate on this a bit further. But then again, maybe it's all explained in the legendary Huzics's FAQ (probably the most referenced site in this forum)...
 
Originally posted by Coeur de Lion
The annual rate of inflation due to income can be seen by hovering over the treasury slider.

Yes, I know where to find information about the "inflation" rate. What I would like to know more about is how it works if it is a price index rather than real inflation. I guess I should add that I never have studied economy so I might be missing something very basic here.
 
It's definitly price index :)
but since most people here are interested in history, not economy, i more often read about some 'really' minor historical mistakes than this thing which is apparently biggest mess in this nice game :D
 
Thanks

These answer quite a few questions.

Now for another:

Do manufactory prices keep on going up and up? Why?
 
Re: Thanks

Originally posted by Emre Yigit

Do manufactory prices keep on going up and up? Why?

Ok, I can't resist, it's because of inflation. :D

But seriously, main purpose is play balance I think. Each factory type increases income, etc, which can lead to a positive feedback cycle. This can take the fun out of the game. :(

Of course you can also look at it historically. IRL each time a new refinery, or factory is built in a country it gets more expensive. Nothing ever gets cheaper. More laws, codes & regulations to meet, more taxes to pay, higher wages, land costs go up, etc. Facts of life in a developing nation. ;)
John J
 
Originally posted by sean9898
But lowering inflation to 0 does not return the prices to 1492 values. Is this a hybrid of inflation/price index?

So what's the purpose of decreasing inflation? I understand costs for troops etc might increase with increased tech lvl but does decreasing "inflation" decrease the price index again?
 
Originally posted by Gars
but does decreasing "inflation" decrease the price index again?

Yes, they are one and the same. The inflation IS the Price index.

The "to treasury" slider just states how much gets added to the price index annually at the current setting.


BTW, Price index = infaltion, just not the Inflation % we are used to from the modern economy (though many state that in theory Inflation is not required in a society and could be eliminated if the politicans and major money players in the world decided to do it =)
 
Last edited:
Huszics,

I must respectfully qualify your RW theory report:

BTW, Price index = infaltion, just not the Inflation % we are used to from the modern economy (though many state that in theory Inflation is not required in a society and could be eliminated if the politicans and major money players in the world decided to do it =)

Of course, you can get an economist to say anything ;-)
What they mean, or intend, is the end of capitalism.

What EU, and the RW, experience as inflation is fundamentally based on increasing population (whether through birth or migration), a result of the incessantly increasing production of goods and jobs by capitalist economies (market orientation and profit motive). The intertwined spiral of increasing population, jobs, and goods keeps the capitalist system spiraling up, which we see as inflation. That's why 3% p.a. is "good," but not 10% or 0% or -5%. Of course, governments and others can and do fiddle with the system (currency manipulation, price supports, wage caps, etc.), but without reversing the foundations of capitalism, the effects are short-term and limited (though you might want to ask the Weimar Republic folks about that).

Which is not to say that capitalism is perfect, but is fairly accurately and historically represented in EU.
 
RW inflation

jlrogers, with all due respect I must quality your qualification. In the real world, inflation is not a function of capitalism, pop growth, or any such. It is a simple effect of the money supply growing faster than the production of goods and services.

In capitalism, goods and services grow faster than in any other system; this on the order of perhaps 2%/year. Perhaps more or less, depending on the level of socialism of various forms in the society (taxation, regultion, etc.). Only knowing the rate of increase of productivity, an economist would expect a fixed money supply to deflate at 2%/year.

But of course, the supply of money is not fixed.

The inflation that we moderns see is almost completely an effect made possible by fiat money. Banks, in essence, make up money out of thin air. This seems somewhat amazing at first glance, but then how much more amazing is it that by changing a number in a computer you have more money, than by printing a little paper placard?

Gold-weight money has always been impossible to intentionally inflate in the long run; however, to the extent that the banking system is large and integrated it can take a very long time for the long run to come around and bite the banks. Historically, one fruitful way of looking at the history of banking is as a struggle of the banking elites to escape the limits of gold-weight so that they could inflate.

In any case, all that is just to address the issue of what inflation in the modern world is. In the EU time frame, there was little or no paper money. What inflation there was, was due to two primary causes.

One, which is modelled in the game (though I don't know how well), is the effect of large influxes of gold and silver from the new world. The effect of this would have been to enrich Spain while impoverishing everyone else.

The other chief cause of inflation in the EU time frame, was intentional inflation by a royal mint. A king would decree that all the old money in the kingdom should be recalled and recast; in the recasting they would decrease the amount of gold in the coins. The king kept the difference, of course, thereby enriching himself at the expense of all of his subjects. This process is called debasing the currency.

Currency debasement was a widespread effect in the middle ages. Quoting Rothbard: "in 1200, the French livre tournois was defined as 98 grams of fine silver; by 1600 it equaled only 11 grams. ... A particularly striking case is the dinar, the coin of the Saracens in Spain. The dinar, when first coined at the end of the seventh century, consisted of 65 gold grains. The Saracens, notably sound in monetary matters, kept the dinars weight relatively constant, and as late as the middle of the twelfth century, it still equalled 60 grains. At that point, the Christian kings conquered Spain, and by the early thirteenth century, the dinar (now called maravedi) had been reduced to 14 grains of gold. Soon the gold coin was too lightweight to circulate, and it was converted into a silver coin weighing 26 grains of silver. But this, too, was debased further, and by the mid-fifteenth century, the maravedi consisted of only 11/2 silver grains, and was again too small to circulate."

As for the effect of governors or any such state action on inflation: forget it. If anything powerful states cause inflation, not the reverse. Historically, price levels have almost never dropped. However, inflation is also not as ruinous to the sovereign as EU models it. If from 1500 to 1600 you got a 100% increase in the price level in, say, England, it did not mean that the king effectively had his tax income halved. Rather, taxes would have been increased to a suitable level, and the king's income would be largely unaffected.

The real effect of inflation (if EU wanted to model it right), in the EU timeframe, would be to hurt the middle classes and the rich. (The poor mostly did not have any money.) So, inflation should reduce your prosperity level. It should also do something like eliminate some of your merchants each year. And it should raise the unrest level generally in your nation. It should also raise the price levels of things; that is fine; however, that should include tax income. Finally, the option to debase should be under player control. Each time you do it, you cause inflation but you also score a large gain to the treasury, proportionate to the size of your economy.
 
Originally posted by jlrogers

Of course, you can get an economist to say anything ;-)

Apparently I should have said that this is not just a theory after a few beers down at the local pub but it has also been tested in RL at relativly large scale a few times.

At one place (somewhere in Austria IIRC) there was a test project to create 0 inflation economy where the project was cancelled, not because it didn't work (it did), but because of "political" reasons.

As Wreck have also explained a lot better then I could, inflation is NOT a law of nature but something deliberatly CREATED, presumably by the people in "controll of the money" to help them stay in "controll of the money" (yes, its a conspiracy ;)).

Anyway, believe what you will, just don't forget to consider that this is a zero sum game. If someone is losing money (eg the average Jo), who is gaing it?

Live long and prosper =)
 
Really good thread. Wreck, I liked in particular your post. Inflation is always a case of too much money chasing too few goods, as you pointed out.

& yes, Huszics, I think that inflation could be reversed if you could find a way to reduce the money supply. Or really crank up the production of goods. If star trek's replicators ever become a reality, that would probably do it. If we all took across the board pay cuts that would also do it, for a little while at least. I'm sure that if we looked we could find some examples of these in history.

In fact, I think a case could be made for the industrial age (by dramatically increasing the available goods & services) causing the largest scale 'deflation' in history. I think that the average Joe today is _much_ richer in terms of real wealth than he was 100 or more years ago. Or even 50 years ago. We live longer, healthier lives with more conveniences & luxuries than ever before. At least those of us in the developed nations. Of course, this is taking a longer view than most inflation measures do.

Mi dos centavos,

John J
 
Back to EU and history

I gladly defer to (and respectfully disagree with) my learned colleagues, and desperately try to salvage the topic of this list away from theory and speculation, and back to EU and historical development.

I can't see how EU's inflation models currency fluctuations, by government or anyone else, in any significant way. Even the influx of gold from mining plays a modest role in the EU model, from what I can tell. Can we agree that the EU modelers know their history pretty well (certainly from everything I can tell)? If so, what did they model EU's inflation on? In EU, governments control inflation to a great degree. More public spending equals more inflation; less equals more private enterprise (reflected abstractly in the research catagories) and less inflation. But where did this ever-increasing supply of public and/or private wealth come from? Governments do not create wealth by printing/coining money; they re-distribute and regulate it (sometimes well, sometimes poorly).

Could it not be agreed that, over this time period, the population of the known and exploited world was generally increasing, as was the wealth and production thereon (as reflected in growing taxation, manufactories, CoTs, infrastructure and trade, ad nauseum)? Has anyone played this game with a declining population base, and corresponding decline in wealth and production, whether one measures it by currency or not?

And, what is wrong with calling this (neither zero-sum nor a natural or fundamental law of nature, but a creation of humans and their will) capitalism? This word is not a magic wand to explain away all things good, bad and in-between. It merely explains what happened in the past, might be continuing to happen now, and could continue in the future. More and more of the world was (is?) drawn into a market-oriented nexus, driven by profit motive (many times involutarily). It's not theoretical, but historical. EU models this pretty well, though not without criticism.
 
Re: Back to EU and history

I gladly defer to (and respectfully disagree with) my learned colleagues, and desperately try to salvage the topic of this list away from theory and speculation, and back to EU and historical development.

My hope was that you might learn from. Economics may be dismal, but it is not mere "theory and speculation", either. And as for historical development, I hardly see how one can understand it in any meaningful way without theory. Without theory history is nothing more than a grade school recitation of facts.


Can we agree that the EU modelers know their history pretty well (certainly from everything I can tell)? If so, what did they model EU's inflation on?

Realize that I know nothing about what was in the designers' minds. However, it's quite apparent that they have no economic understanding of inflation; or at least, that if they do have one they chose not to use it in the game.

IMO, they implemented EU "inflation" for a perfectly sufficient reason. Which was as a game mechanic designed to prevent the otherwise available strategy of accumulating too much tax revenue in the treasury. (Of course this only works up to infrastructure 6, but that can be a very long time.)

It is important to note, here, that real capitalist development would probably make a very dull game. In real capitalism, the best way for a country to become rich is for the government to laissez faire -- to keep its hands off of the economy as much as possible. Imagine a game where you do best by doing nothing.

To some extent, then, it is impossible for a god game to be really accurately model capitalism, because the thing you do as god -- control your city/country/etc -- is inherently anti-capitalistic.

The rest of what you wrote is very unclear to me, so I shall not comment.