Is the game getting canceled?

[raf8655]

This whole "blame the toxic customers" is a sad joke, anyway.

I agree.

I would say that as far as CS2 is concerned, defining a "toxic customer" as someone who complains about objective disasters that have occurred and which continue to have negative consequences to this day (absolutely not the customer's fault) is something very imaginative and cowardly.

Indeed, it is the customers who would have the right to define as "toxic" those who promised and did not keep them, those who charged for a mutilated product and did not receive a refund, those who are unable to provide fundamentals functionality after more than a year...

 

[Kenji Elis]

If they will deliver the consoles versions it will depend on their success, I guess.
Given what we can observe from the outside (no news at all), I don't count on it being a huge success though which means I expect PDX to pull the plug at July 1st.

So the thing about that is, City skylines two was supposed to be an Xbox game pass day one title, and it technically is because it's on the PC game pass. Meaning they most likely have a monetary and legal obligation to deliver these games to the Xbox in a working functional state due to the fact that any third party game that's brought to the Xbox has a huge amount of money thrown at it by Microsoft.

Also saying they "might" deliver it to consoles depending on their success doesn't make sense to me because it was already supposed to be on console in the first place.

They've currently sold 1 million copies of the game, which would probably be doubled or tripled if they hadn't flopped so incredibly hard on the console releases, this was just a series of incredibly poor decisions by a game developer and I hope it will be studied and learn from by future developers.

 

[Civ5rako]

So the thing about that is, City skylines to you was supposed to be an Xbox game pass day one title, and it technically is because it's on the PC game pass. Meaning they most likely have a monetary and legal obligation to deliver these games to the Xbox in a working functional state due to the fact that any third party game that's brought to the Xbox has a huge amount of money thrown at it by Microsoft.

Also saying they "might" deliver it to consoles depending on their success doesn't make sense to me because it was already supposed to be on console in the first place.

They've currently sold 1 million copies of the game, which would probably be doubled or tripled if they hadn't flopped so incredibly hard on the console releases, this was just a series of incredibly poor decisions by a game developer and I hope it will be studied and learn from by future developers.

a) Personally I don't have any interest in Xbox game pass as I am not using it in any form or way.
b) I am not sure (but of course I don't have any internal information) if they are still bound to the assumed contracts with Microsoft and other companies. I could imagine that those contracts only cover a certain timeframe, which might have exceeded already. But again, that is just my assumption
c) "If they will deliver the consoles versions it will depend on their success, I guess." meant that I assume the continuation of CS2 being dependent on the success of the consoles version.

In other words, my assumption is this:
1) no consoles version => no continuation
2) unsuccesful release of the consoles version => no continuation
3) successful release => CS2 will be continued.

 

[Kenji Elis]

Since there are a weird amount of posts with the exact same question, just going to post my reply again. But the answer is No the game isn't getting cancelled, even though internet trolls on here and Reddit would love nothing more than to see that type of an announcement for a hit of dopamine.

CO is right to keep quiet, keep their heads down and work. It's sad that the internet is just filled with people mindlessly trashing on everything. There's absolutely nothing indicating that CO is "shuttering", they've even stated that if Paradox where to part ways as their publisher then CO, as the developer, would seek out a different publisher. And in the meantime CO has been pushing out fan requested QOL updates and hopefully has another one in the works to release soon. I wish they could communicate more but it's been proven that the majority of people on this forum and the reddit forums are filled with trolls and people too susceptible to rage bait, so they're forced to chest their cards until the last moment an update is ready. It's not just this game though, the entire gaming industry is being brought down by toxic internet culture.

Considering the fact that they delivered a completely subpar product that hardly ran on people's gaming computers let alone consoles, being silent, and dodging questions is the absolute last thing CO should be doing right now, in a situation like this open communication and transparency is absolutely essential to regain and retain customer loyalty and dissolve customer frustrations.

Internet toxicities mean nothing when they have a monetary, and most likely legal obligation to deliver a product they have so far failed to do, people have every right to be angry at the absolute crap show this game release has been.

the fact that we're going on over a year after when the game was supposed to be released, and it's still not on consoles is completely ridiculous and they should be called out for this crap.

The general response to this game just goes to show how absolutely sick and tired The gaming community is, of being shafted by developers just being lazy and releasing half baked, incomplete, damn near unplayable products and expecting us to just sit down, shut up, accept it for what it is and pay full price for it.

 

[nnnitram]

b) I am not sure (but of course I don't have any internal information) if they are still bound to the assumed contracts with Microsoft and other companies. I could imagine that those contracts only cover a certain timeframe, which might have exceeded already. But again, that is just my assumption

Do you think Microsoft is just going to say "ahhh damn why did we write 'unless you just wait a year and a half' into the contract! CO foiled us, oh no!"

Microsoft pays big money to capture these exclusives. They will want what they paid for, or they will sue to get their money back.

 

[Civ5rako]

Do you think Microsoft is just going to say "ahhh damn why did we write 'unless you just wait a year and a half' into the contract! CO foiled us, oh no!"

Microsoft pays big money to capture these exclusives. They will want what they paid for, or they will sue to get their money back.

If you read my statement carefully you won't find me saying that there haven't been any contractual penalties

Of course I don't have any insight in the contracts, but typically they do have a limited lifetime. If you cannot deliver in time, you will have to pay a penalty, but after that you are released of your obligation of delivery.
Again, I don't know if this is the case here, but on the other hand I don't think the respective contracts to be valid eternally.

 

[MHOrhan]

Unlikely, as I think

In their "An update to the Release Schedule" (Sep 16th, 2024) they embedded a statement of CO, reading:
"Asset Editor
The Asset Editor has presented us with more challenges than we expected, but we’re making good progress and have been sharing updated builds with the modding beta group, so they can get familiar with the Editor and provide feedback on its functionality. While we have done some initial testing of the importing, saving, and sharing processes, more work is needed before we can release the beta version of the Editor for public use. Two key features need to be finalized before asset support is available: Serialization and Virtual Texturing support for custom assets. Serialization is the process that turns meshes, textures, and asset information into an easily shareable file, similar to the .cok files that are created when saving maps. Virtual Texturing plays a key role in optimization as it reduces GPU memory usage."
(highlighting mine)

"Serialization" and "Virtual Texturing" were some of the last words we did hear from CO_Avanaya, who isn't around anymore since Dec 2nd. She mentioned both last on Nov 1st as still being worked on.

That has been three months ago now. Seems there hasn't been much of progress in that timespan.
Given that they haven't been able to overcome these problems within 15 months past release (not to mention that they didn't [officially] start with it just then, but allegedly long before already) there is little hope that they will resolve those issues anytime soon.

In addition, expecting modders to make the game usable will cause serious incompatibilities and negativities in the future, like in CS1.

If they haven't completed and released the game, they should have refunded everyone's money, worked for 1 or 2 years and finished it.

There is nothing shameful about delays, many products are delayed, but collecting a large amount of money from the game market for a broken game with significant deficiencies, reducing communication, leaving the player helpless, making a token apology and compensating with a gift that cannot be considered compensation, keeping a promise by "taking a vacation" with fewer employees, these are all shameful but we can't explain.

The producer is silent, the CEO is silent, and some meaningless people representing them expect us to be happy with the turtle-speed progress and maintain our peace.

 

[UsmanSyed]

The producer is silent, the CEO is silent, and some meaningless people representing them expect us to be happy with the turtle-speed progress and maintain our peace.

I think its not getting cancelled at least not yet anyway, but yes silence is the issue. I mean more than a year has passed, sure there has been improvements, but will it be able to reach even half the success that was CS1? I really doubt it, and as everyone especially the top guys are silent, no one knows what the future holds.

If they are putting all their eggs in one basket and relying on console release that will make their game a big success, I think that would be a huge mistake. IMO this game has this year to take off, if its not able to do so and continues the same path, well then the road ahead is going to be really tough.

 

[MHOrhan]

I think its not getting cancelled at least not yet anyway, but yes silence is the issue. I mean more than a year has passed, sure there has been improvements, but will it be able to reach even half the success that was CS1? I really doubt it, and as everyone especially the top guys are silent, no one knows what the future holds.

If they are putting all their eggs in one basket and relying on console release that will make their game a big success, I think that would be a huge mistake. IMO this game has this year to take off, if its not able to do so and continues the same path, well then the road ahead is going to be really tough.

It is actually very clear what will happen, history repeats itself, they got used to sharing CS1 and all the games after its era without completing them, and collecting the games with modders and complaints. They turned this into a sales strategy.

I am saying it clearly for those who have hope for the future, note my comment, we have 8 painful years ahead of us like CS1 which they could not complete in 8 years. They will release patches that are sometimes irrelevant and sometimes have small benefits.

They will continue to add something to what modders do and sell countless DLCs like "Airports, stations, parks, zoos, tourism, stadiums" as they did before.

Go ahead and say the opposite..

 

[illuminaut]

It is actually very clear what will happen, history repeats itself, they got used to sharing CS1 and all the games after its era without completing them, and collecting the games with modders and complaints. They turned this into a sales strategy.

I am saying it clearly for those who have hope for the future, note my comment, we have 8 painful years ahead of us like CS1 which they could not complete in 8 years. They will release patches that are sometimes irrelevant and sometimes have small benefits.

They will continue to add something to what modders do and sell countless DLCs like "Airports, stations, parks, zoos, tourism, stadiums" as they did before.

Go ahead and say the opposite..

I wouldn't mind if it takes the same path as CS1, because CS2 is a better game than CS1 was on launch. I don't care if CO or the modding scene will take this game to the next level - as long as it gets there.

 

[[Delta ²k5]]

Go ahead and say the opposite

While I won't say the opposite I may however add some points from a different perspective to maybe adapt (or not).

I am saying it clearly for those who have hope for the future, note my comment, we have 8 painful years ahead of us like CS1 which they could not complete in 8 years.

Personally I don't have "painful" memories about that timeframe, instead I pretty much have good memories with C:S1. In comparison to other titles around 3D modding was pretty easy as you created just an object, created a UV map, created a hand full of textures and just slapped it into the import folder. Done. No extra specific file formats and no need to deal with shader settings.

As someone who created at least one mod for GTA IV before that was a dream of simplicity, hands down.

They will release patches that are sometimes irrelevant and sometimes have small benefits.

Yeah - we are not anymore in the 2000s where you'd have to wait for that update CD to be part of a magazin just to patch your 650mb title. Software projects like this (not just games) are 1. extremely large in size, 2. extremely complex and 3. are wide spread. Just look at the credits of C:S2 how many third parties actually participate in some form.

Also, as a guy working in IT there always is the problem of people "looking for new opportunities" - they leave their company, so they leave the project and someone else has to work with/on their stuff which usually isn't greatly documented. In worst case you'll have no idea what that Integer variable "a" does because a guy was too lazy to write a comment, and yes, that's also the case in banking, pharmacies and other fields in which it's not "just a game"

Fixes to bugs however are never irrelevant - they may look like that on paper but might unblock larger aspects especially on simulations. As these are highly dynamic you may not know the outcome of a fix or small issue in these regards when things start to scale. Also, it's always good practice to not just focus on the large issues but also on the small things which are fast to fix, let it be to refresh your mind by actually FIXING something if all other issues are really complex beasts.

They will continue to add something to what modders do and sell countless DLCs like "Airports, stations, parks, zoos, tourism, stadiums" as they did before.

Usually, on C:S1, they did not just add something to "what modders do" - instead on their DLCs they added new kinds of resources, usually AIs like the taxi AI or tram AI, effects and sounds. Even if that sounds trivial it enabled modders to create properly working vehicles, networks and buildings down the line. Also, obviously, without DLCs you'd have at one point no reason to continue with support and patches and instead can go the "EA NBA Live" route by just releasing a new full price title each year because a random guy switched teams.

You'll need some sort of a cash cow like Rockstar Games with their Shark Cards and GTA+ or Fortnite with their Skins. I like the full price DLC approach better as I have the choice to buy while not being forced to download stuff which I may unlock by grinding or even never making use of (looking at you GTA V).

 

[ClemiMD]

we have 8 painful years ahead of us [...] . They will release patches that are sometimes irrelevant and sometimes have small benefits.

They will continue to add something to what modders do and sell countless DLCs like "Airports, stations, parks, zoos, tourism, stadiums" as they did before.

Apparently I like painful things.

 

[MHOrhan]

I wouldn't mind if it takes the same path as CS1, because CS2 is a better game than CS1 was on launch. I don't care if CO or the modding scene will take this game to the next level - as long as it gets there.

So you're saying that even if it takes eight years, instead of approaching the thing I paid money for with a "customer" awareness, I will be overly optimistic. I will not react enough to the game being released before it is completed so that the producer can continue this "sales strategy" game he has done before with every game.

Friends, these issues may have been discussed before, this does not mean that we are late to show our reaction. If the producer has made millions of dollars in profit, he will expand his team in return, increase communication, and will not be inaccessible behind the lie of "we will increase". We will continue to show our reaction so that he will stop making this a habit. Either you are simply not aware of your power. You are not aware of your legal rights. You are not aware of being a "customer" as much as you are an actor.

 

[makinistfanlari]

the game should be reworked from scratch, with specialists who REALLY knows how computer architecture works (even from assembler level) and how to lay algorithms aswell. the current situation looks like a group of enthusiastic modder friends have done something without knowing what their colleagues are working on. CO released the game having unnecessary details for a city builder game, like pedestrians with teeth, electrical plugs and furnitures modeled and i can't believe noone opposed to release a poorly-optimized game in that case. if we are talking topics like this today, CO has to revise their communication between departments, and qualifications of their employees, according to releasing a 30$ game with base edition.

edit: the ONLY pro of the sequel is road building tools, i bet if the same tools were implemented in CS1, noone would play the sequel right now.

 

[Emaer]

Three of the four C:S1 programmers worked on C:S2. They showed with C:S1 that they knew what they were doing. There were bugs, but with every patch or DLC you could see progress, an idea, development.
Assembler or machine code won't help much if the project, the assumptions themselves sucks.

 

[RuralConurbation]

As I have said all along
- initial sales revenue probably paid off the up front costs that PDX incurred paying CO to develop the game.
- CO/PDX need to fulfill their contract obligations with their customers so as to avoid litigation. How these obligations are fulfilled is open to interpretation.
Then:
- On going development requires sales revenue and if on-going sales of the base game and DLC's are not balancing the cost of game maintenance and development. who, in their right mind will continue to financially support a product especially if :
- The improvements with each patch are not sufficiently enticing customers to spend more money on the title and DLC's
- The game retains fundamental flaws which will not address customer expectation in a reasonable timeframe (optimisation issues, asset editor, being examples)
- The game implementation makes it difficult or virtually impossible to derive derivative sales revenue (from consoles, as an example) through parallel revenue streams

As a shareholder I would want my money used to maximise value for me. I would not want it thrown at a project which has little hope of financial success. Better to spend my money on something new and exciting than on something which has a poor recent track record and which is likely to generate little success in the short or medium term.

 

[Lys91]

Three of the four C:S1 programmers worked on C:S2. They showed with C:S1 that they knew what they were doing. There were bugs, but with every patch or DLC you could see progress, an idea, development.
Assembler or machine code won't help much if the project, the assumptions themselves sucks.

TBH I don't think it is the "devs" per se. It is the lead designer of all their previous games leaving the company that could explain a lot.

 

[Civ5rako]

TBH I don't think it is the "devs" per se. It is the lead designer of all their previous games leaving the company that could explain a lot.

Frankly, I think it is a problem at all levels.

Having to replace the lead designer certainly doesn't help at all, but there seems to be quite a bit of mismanagement involved as well. Just think of the infamous "Beach Property Pack". Textbook example for mismanaging something.
Not even to mention that three years of delay only lead to what has been released in 2023.

And the devs aren't as good as one would like to think either. Remember that they managed to introduce new bugs with each bigger patch and that till now they haven't got that thingy called Asset Editor to run.

 

[MHOrhan]

Frankly, I think it is a problem at all levels.

Having to replace the lead designer certainly doesn't help at all, but there seems to be quite a bit of mismanagement involved as well. Just think of the infamous "Beach Property Pack". Textbook example for mismanaging something.
Not even to mention that three years of delay only lead to what has been released in 2023.

And the devs aren't as good as one would like to think either. Remember that they managed to introduce new bugs with each bigger patch and that till now they haven't got that thingy called Asset Editor to run.

What disappointed me the most was pre-ordering the game and not seeing the map and asset editors. So much so that the game would be nothing without them.

It is very clear that the motto "If You Can Dream It, You Can Build It" would not be possible with 12 developer maps. We cannot explain this, and when we comment this harshly, we are faced with deliberate non-response.

There is no shame in failing, if you have earned millions of dollars, you have achieved a successful gain. So what did you give the player/customer in return for this gain?

To what extent did you compensate for the mistakes and faults?

Did the apology made 10 months ago and a few empty dlcs really compensate for the fault? So were the promises made regarding communication kept? Was the necessary investment made?

There is a very clear truth that we all need to understand; We are not just players, we are customers. We have legal rights. Those who are not aware of the state of the game will continue to buy, but those who want to exercise their legal rights can get their money back through legal means and can announce this as they wish.

It is essential to remind the producer of this fact and the actors that they are "customers".

 

[Cardinal Herue]

Yeah - we are not anymore in the 2000s where you'd have to wait for that update CD to be part of a magazin just to patch your 650mb title. Software projects like this (not just games) are 1. extremely large in size, 2. extremely complex and 3. are wide spread. Just look at the credits of C:S2 how many third parties actually participate in some form.

Also, as a guy working in IT there always is the problem of people "looking for new opportunities" - they leave their company, so they leave the project and someone else has to work with/on their stuff which usually isn't greatly documented. In worst case you'll have no idea what that Integer variable "a" does because a guy was too lazy to write a comment, and yes, that's also the case in banking, pharmacies and other fields in which it's not "just a game"

Fixes to bugs however are never irrelevant - they may look like that on paper but might unblock larger aspects especially on simulations. As these are highly dynamic you may not know the outcome of a fix or small issue in these regards when things start to scale. Also, it's always good practice to not just focus on the large issues but also on the small things which are fast to fix, let it be to refresh your mind by actually FIXING something if all other issues are really complex beasts.

The reason this argument baffles me is because there're plenty of similarly or even more complex sims out there that get much more regular -- and substantive -- patches than these "hotfixes" CO puts out every few months (if that) with the sparsest of patch notes.

Add to that the fact that, as has been mentioned -- and surely you've experienced -- they routinely add new bugs when releasing patches, it's incredible.

And while I don't disagree with your last few sentences, I don't think they apply here. Look at the skinny, skinny documentation for most of the patches and tell us that it looks like they have an ongoing strategy to address both small and large bugs in the simulation: https://cs2.paradoxwikis.com/Patches