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Incompetent

Euroweenie in Exile
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Sep 22, 2003
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First, the balance argument:
A unified Italian culture is OK when we have Italy ruled by Italians, as it were. But in fact, lots of outside powers have events getting them involved in parts of Italy: in the north we have Swabians, Hungarians, and Savoyards (from what MattyG has said); in the south we have Byzantines and even Almohads. But in none of these cases do we want the new arrivals to rule happily over places in the North and the South.

Now for the institution-based split:

In the north is the Kingdom of Italy, Imperial laws and customs, and quite an urban society. Strictly, these people are the only true Italians in 1419. As such we could mostly limit italian culture to the HRE's borders.

In the south is the Kingdom of Sicily, another long-standing entity and a major to boot. The culture here could be crudely summed up as 'less German, more Greek/Arab', though of course there are other factors at work. Obviously insular Sicily is Sicilian, but its ties to Naples and the boot of Italy are strong enough that there's no point dividing it from those provinces as well. Historically Sicily was probably the chief outside influence on Maltese culture, so they can be Sicilian as well.

That leaves a few distinct cultural regions in the middle:

1. Venetian region, provinces Veneto, Istria and maybe Mantua
2. Ecclesiastical region, provinces Roma, Marche and Romagna
3. Corsica
4. Sardinia

Now I certainly don't propose each of these be given a separate culture slot. Rather:

1. Given Venice's absorption by Genoa, its similarities to the merchant cities to the west, and the fact that most powers aspiring to Venice would have a big role in the KoI as well, there's no harm in keeping this zone italian.

2. This can have its own culture. No-one but the Pope may legitimately rule the Patrimony of St. Peter. These might only be 3 provinces, but they form an important dividing line.

3. This has very strong ties to Genoa and Tuscany, so might as well stay italian.

4. Sardinia's a bit of a weird one. The local language, for instance, contains many words from pre-Roman languages, such as Phoenician. Lumping it with the Papal States would make it wrong-culture for both Genoa and Sicily, but isn't justifiable in terms of the locals. The best we can do is probably to make it Sicilian, as the italian culture zone already has enough going on, and certainly the island would be towards the Greek/Arab end on the 'Greek/Arab vs German influence' measure.




How does this translate to countrycultures?


As usual, minors have their home culture and no others. No problems there.

Papal States gets 'ecclesiastical'.

Genoa obviously has primary culture italian, but they also start firmly in charge of Sardinia and Malta, and with shakier claims on Sicily proper. For this to work they should either start with Sicilian or be able to get it easily. Certainly, Genoa should get Sicilian more often than it gets any other culture.

Sicily has Sicilian. They can increase the reach of their culture in North Africa. If some strange turn of events leads to the Pope giving up his temporal power over Marche and Romagna, he'd probably give it to Sicily rather than the dreaded HRE and its constituent states, so Sicily just *might* get ecclesiastical.

The big prize for a westward-focused Byzantium can be sicilian culture. This makes much more sense than the old 'all-or-nothing' offer of italian culture, both culturally and in terms of balance. As bobtdwarf says, the people in the south were as much Italic-speaking Greeks as true Italians.

Hungary shouldn't get any Italic cultures. Venice is the limit of their (semi-)legitimate ambition, and that's just one province (Istria takes on a Slavic character under Hungarian rule).

If Swabia inherits Milan, they get italian. Hopefully a Swabia with german and the reduced italian won't be too unbalanced, given its culture zone would stop at the edge of the HRE.

If the Almohads take over Sicily and Malta, they can get sicilian, probably at some cost (eg they have to convert Sicily first). This would remove the need for suquli culture. If Sicily really gets hammered, who knows, maybe it'll be the Pope who fights the Muslims for physical and cultural control of Naples and Apulia, so the ecclesiastical/sicilian border could also end up as part of the frontier between Christendom and dar al-Islam.

As part of the HRE, Savoy may get italian culture. I don't know what's planned for Savoy ATM, but if everyone who can go for Imperial Italy does so, it could be quite a fight.
 
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sicilian culture sounds ok other than using Suquli but I have a question regarding Sardinia.The island was ruled by Muslims for a long time, and if say, during the Almohad course of events it gets captured and there is cultural change on the island - I dont feel andalusi, arabic, or berber could fit and sicilian sounds a bit out of place. what do you suggest?
 
Calipah said:
sicilian culture sounds ok other than using Suquli but I have a question regarding Sardinia.The island was ruled by Muslims for a long time, and if say, during the Almohad course of events it gets captured and there is cultural change on the island - I dont feel andalusi, arabic, or berber could fit and sicilian sounds a bit out of place. what do you suggest?

It was also ruled by the Byzantines for a long time, so similar story to Sicily there. Sicilian isn't technically correct, but I think it comes closest, even if the island is Islamised. If you can think of a better name for 'Sicilian/Sardinian/Neapolitan/Maltese' I'm open to suggestions - 'south italian' is clumsy as they aren't really Italians.

Since the Almohads will often be getting 'Sicilian' anyway, is there any problem with Sardinia staying 'Sicilian' under Almohad rule?
 
I see your point, but Im just having difficulty digesting a Sicilian "Sardinia".
 
Why different cultures for Italy? They all speak the same language really. Problems governing parts of Italy should resolve from not avaiable claims, not from Sicily being unable to govern Genoese people efficiently.

Why divide the cultures up? So that cultures can be handed out more freely?
 
TheArchduke said:
Why different cultures for Italy? They all speak the same language really.

Only to the same extent that Englishmen and Scots spoke the same language in the Early Modern era, or Spaniards and Gascons. Standardised Italian is a creation of the 19th century and is still a second language for many Italian-born people. The remark "we have created Italy, now we must create Italians" was only half a joke, and in some respects Italy still hasn't fully managed this (eg the continuing appeal of the Northern League). I don't think Italy was any more culturally unified 600 years ago, given how many centuries it had been divided by that point.

TheArchduke said:
Problems governing parts of Italy should resolve from not avaiable claims, not from Sicily being unable to govern Genoese people efficiently.

Why divide the cultures up? So that cultures can be handed out more freely?

That's not really enough though. Italian provinces are rich enough that people will try to take the lot, whether or not they have cores. They'll probably even take them without culture as well, but at least they'll get some penalties.

The principal reason for dividing cultures up is to control which states can easily rule which places IMO, whether we base that on institutions, language or whatever. Otherwise we'd ditch this whole culture thing and give everyone 'human' culture :D Cores do some of the work but they're mainly concerned with diplomatic ease in claiming the area, rather than ease of ruling the place in the long term.
 
Well, the more diverse cultures, the less incentive for other nations to gain specific provinces, the more limiting the expansion. I actually didn´t touch the culture setup at all with only some provinces adjusted.

And so far I see no reason to do so at all.
 
TheArchduke said:
Well, the more diverse cultures, the less incentive for other nations to gain specific provinces, the more limiting the expansion. I actually didn´t touch the culture setup at all with only some provinces adjusted.

And so far I see no reason to do so at all.

We've already diverged quite a lot from vanilla cultures. The reasons are explained in many different places. I wrote a more general proposal for how we might handle cultures a while ago, and it should be linked from my 'State of the 'rration' thread. Culture generated a fair amount of discussion at the time, but I don't think anyone said the vanilla cultures were sacrosanct.
 
Calipah said:
sicilian culture sounds ok other than using Suquli but I have a question regarding Sardinia.The island was ruled by Muslims for a long time, and if say, during the Almohad course of events it gets captured and there is cultural change on the island - I dont feel andalusi, arabic, or berber could fit and sicilian sounds a bit out of place. what do you suggest?

think of it as a stew.

The ingredients that make "Sicilian" are Greek, Arab, a bit of Latin and a couple of pinches of Norman French.

Now the question is what the ingredients in Sardinia and how would they taste? There would be some Latin as it was part of Rome, some Arab, a bit of Greek perhaps and from its' location a dash of Occitan/Catalan maybe. So it should be similiar in flavor to Sicily with an interesting twist here and there.

That being said I would posit that there is another approach to it that would likely work: Romanian. No seriously, hear me out. Romanians are old Roman/Latin holdovers that have been exposed to Islam, Byzantium, and an ample dash of Slav. But they are in short isolated former citizens of Rome that have held onto a great amount of their language etc. Somewhat similiar to Sardinia. By using Romanian you don't have to use another tag and it would simulate the natives being not quite the same as the mainlanders. Plus the odds of a Romanian primary culture country getting ahold of it are pretty slim.. if they did they deserve the cookie.


I should think that the cultural break up should go something like this:

Northern Italy should be "Lombard" to reflect their association with the HRE and their descent from the Lomabard tribe. "Italian" should be the culture of the Papal States as possessor of Rome. And the South as a complex stew of former ERE and other ingredients should be "Neopolitan".
 
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bobtdwarf said:
think of it as a stew.

The ingredients that make "Sicilian" are Greek, Arab, a bit of Latin and a couple of pinches of Norman French.

Now the question is what the ingredients in Sardinia and how would they taste? There would be some Latin as it was part of Rome, some Arab, a bit of Greek perhaps and from its' location a dash of Occitan/Catalan maybe. So it should be similiar in flavor to Sicily with an interesting twist here and there.

That's what I was thinking, but you expressed it better :D

That being said I would posit that there is another approach to it that would likely work: Romanian. No seriously, hear me out. Romanians are old Roman/Latin holdovers that have been exposed to Islam, Byzantium, and an ample dash of Slav. But they are in short isolated former citizens of Rome that have held onto a great amount of their language etc. Somewhat similiar to Sardinia. By using Romanian you don't have to use another tag and it would simulate the natives being not quite the same as the mainlanders. Plus the odds of a Romanian primary culture country getting ahold of it are pretty slim.. if they did they deserve the cookie.

We don't actually have Romanian, and I don't think Sardinia is worth using a whole culture slot for. Romanian really should be revived IMO rather than languishing in the 'Slavonic' sphere, but that's another matter.

I see what you're getting at, but I still think Sardinia would be closer culturally to Sicily than anywhere else - while Romanians won't reach Sardinia, the Orthodox Rome might, and they're quite likely to have earned Romanian culture for different reasons. We could model Sardinian differentness by disruptive events for whoever owns the island - anyone but an independent Sardinia itself should probably have to make a little adjustment to accommodate these strange people :D


Otherwise, do you think my proposal for a division of Italian culture is sensible?
 
I support the sicilian / italian split, north and south Italy are really different from each other. Also Sicily has pretty much gone it's own way. I think Sardinia should be italian, has been governed by italians for a long time (Pisa and Genoa).
 
I totally support the idea of Sicilian culture, despite that people from napoli and Apulia who read these threads will scoff and make threats against our family (although that would be very Sicilian of them ... :eek: )

I am not convinced of the value of a Papal culture. Culture groups are limited, and we have not yet begun the Aberration of Asia. Every province in India could be given its own culture if we use the same criteris there as we are using here for assigning Sicilian culture.

Plus, there's Romanian, which is completely and utterly justified.

I know that we may have about 10+ culture spots because we rained so happily from the Americas, but even those will run out.

So, I support Sicilian and Romanian, but not Papal.

And I like the idea that Sicilian could be the prize for Byzantine cooperation with Genoa, although if I were the player I would prefer the current prize of Latin tech group. Maybe we give the choice? Maybe they get both?
 
MattyG said:
I totally support the idea of Sicilian culture, despite that people from napoli and Apulia who read these threads will scoff and make threats against our family (although that would be very Sicilian of them ... :eek: )

I am not convinced of the value of a Papal culture. Culture groups are limited, and we have not yet begun the Aberration of Asia. Every province in India could be given its own culture if we use the same criteris there as we are using here for assigning Sicilian culture.

Plus, there's Romanian, which is completely and utterly justified.

I know that we may have about 10+ culture spots because we rained so happily from the Americas, but even those will run out.

So, I support Sicilian and Romanian, but not Papal.

Fair enough, I'm not too sure about ecclesiastic myself. It's just that those middle provinces don't really belong in either of the other culture groupings. As long as you're not objecting in principle, it can be seen as a 'low priority' culture that we'll put in if we have spare slots after all.

And I like the idea that Sicilian could be the prize for Byzantine cooperation with Genoa, although if I were the player I would prefer the current prize of Latin tech group. Maybe we give the choice? Maybe they get both?

Byzantium has a large number of expansion routes, one of which is 'limited/no expansion'. I'll try to summarise these in another thread so this one doesn't go OT.
 
But remember, we've hashed that Byzantine-Genoan cooperation thing to death elsewhere. :p

And note my update in the Cultures thread. There are plenty. I'll shut up.
 
Incompetent said:
That's what I was thinking, but you expressed it better :D



We don't actually have Romanian, and I don't think Sardinia is worth using a whole culture slot for. Romanian really should be revived IMO rather than languishing in the 'Slavonic' sphere, but that's another matter.

I see what you're getting at, but I still think Sardinia would be closer culturally to Sicily than anywhere else - while Romanians won't reach Sardinia, the Orthodox Rome might, and they're quite likely to have earned Romanian culture for different reasons. We could model Sardinian differentness by disruptive events for whoever owns the island - anyone but an independent Sardinia itself should probably have to make a little adjustment to accommodate these strange people :D


Otherwise, do you think my proposal for a division of Italian culture is sensible?

Oh yes perfectly sensible. I like my names better but that is just me.. :D

Bummer on Romanian being lost as a tag, I agree that they are NOT Slavonic (although Orthodox in faith), they considered themselves more akin to Romans surrounded by barbarians.
 
I must have missed something. What do you mean about "Rom being lost as a tag'?

Looks like this Sicilian idea is a go.

Which province ought to be Romanian culture ?

MattyG
 
bobtdwarf said:
Oh yes perfectly sensible. I like my names better but that is just me.. :D

Bummer on Romanian being lost as a tag, I agree that they are NOT Slavonic (although Orthodox in faith), they considered themselves more akin to Romans surrounded by barbarians.

Too bad for the most of the recent history the wallachs (romanians) were an uneducated bunch that liked to eat garlic more than the neigbours. the Dracula story is a justification for their liking of garlic and not wanting to be garlic-smelling-weird-ethnic-people, even in the eyes of similarly
garlic-smelling-weird-ethnic-people. So they came up with Lord Vlad story.
 
So, who's going to get this project done.

I will change the province.psv and have assigned DAKOTA as sicilian, but which of you will update ALL of the relevant event files?

Matty