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Italian Unification -- Need Comments/Thoughts/Criticisms/Advice please!

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I worked out another problem.

You cannot trigger another event from a random event. It will cause a crash to desktop. Try and see.

You can set and clear flags in random events.

I don't know whether you can sleep and wak events in random events (I never tried).

tpc: I think we need to make an exception in this case, which (I think) is why Barbalele is adding all these coditions (also need exists=PAP by the way). If it were only option B the events may as well not be there (at least is SP) because AI PAP will never grant the title. AI Tuscany is likely to refuse the throne anyway.

For both of you - one way to delay getting the cores was first suggested by maxpublic a long time ago. You require that the first event only happen at high stability. If they press their claims they get -5 stability (pretty realistic if you ask me). The subsequent event (granting the cores) can only fire when you're at stability +3 (or +2). That way they have to put up with a year or two of nastiness.

cthulhu: Why on earth would the pope crown you when you've just deprived him of his patrimony? Isn't he more likely to flee to France (or whereever) and conspire against you? If you want to play as a conqueror you should try to avoid this event anyway. CB shields are a crutch for wimps. Wouldn't they just make a conquest game boring and easy?

On Romagna, Ferrarra was always held as a fief of the Pope. Papal lands were not part of the Kingdom of Italy, cerainly not in the 15th cetury, and I suspect not in the 12th either. So even if we are adding Ferrara it wouldn't be part of this event.
 
Originally posted by cthulhu
No there should be three ways. The third:

* Conquer Italy and annexing the papal states. Force the pope the crown you KoI, it also get you into a major war. For me as a player this the most exciting scenario the other two are for whimps :rolleyes: ;)
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i agree that this shd be a possibility as well since it fits my general sense of history. i think that vassalization as well as annexation shd produce this outcome ... i think the political consequences for such an act shd be much more severe than the one's proposed for either the guelph or ghibelline "political" options though.
 
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
tpc: I think we need to make an exception in this case, which (I think) is why Barbalele is adding all these coditions (also need exists=PAP by the way). If it were only option B the events may as well not be there (at least is SP) because AI PAP will never grant the title. AI Tuscany is likely to refuse the throne anyway.
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ok, it is agreed then. let's adopt lele's suggestion in some manner.

For both of you - one way to delay getting the cores was first suggested by maxpublic a long time ago. You require that the first event only happen at high stability. If they press their claims they get -5 stability (pretty realistic if you ask me). The subsequent event (granting the cores) can only fire when you're at stability +3 (or +2). That way they have to put up with a year or two of nastiness.
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ok, i will propose a new code today along the lines of this suggestion & in line w/ lele's ideas. hopefully everyone will find it amenable.

cthulhu: Why on earth would the pope crown you when you've just deprived him of his patrimony? Isn't he more likely to flee to France (or whereever) and conspire against you? If you want to play as a conqueror you should try to avoid this event anyway. CB shields are a crutch for wimps. Wouldn't they just make a conquest game boring and easy?
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not quite a patrimony, though, is it, the papacy? i imagine if the pope felt he had no choice. of course, the pope is hugely more powerful than represented in the game ... which is partly what makes me uncomfortable in terms of reducing manpower, although i agree that his "temporal" strength was more limited than represented as is. perhaps adding a bunch of random events for the papacy representing banner years in terms of pennies for peter?

On Romagna, Ferrarra was always held as a fief of the Pope. Papal lands were not part of the Kingdom of Italy, cerainly not in the 15th cetury, and I suspect not in the 12th either. So even if we are adding Ferrara it wouldn't be part of this event.
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it is agreed then, genoa is in, romagna is out. however, the guelf/ghibelline options to kingdom of italy are not to be made available to genoa since it's a merchant republic, right?
 
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Originally posted by tpc

not quite a patrimony, though, is it, the papacy? i imagine if the pope felt he had no choice. of course, the pope is hugely more powerful than represented in the game ... which is partly what makes me uncomfortable in terms of reducing manpower, although i agree that his "temporal" strength was more limited than represented as is. perhaps adding a bunch of random events for the papacy representing banner years in terms of pennies for peter?
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Well it is always called the "Patrimony of St Peter", although that's very misleading as it dates only from Charlemagne. But anyway, the Pope stripped of his lands is still a very powerful individual, and I don't see how he could be susceptible to coersion. Heck most temporal leaders were not particularly amenable to coersion when they had been captured, how much less so would a pope be?

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it is agreed then, genoa is in, romagna is out. however, the guelf/ghibelline options to kingdom of italy are not to be made available to genoa since it's a merchant republic, right? [/QUOTE]
Yep. I think when we have this worked out it would be sensible to allow for a coup d'etat in Genoa making it a Duchy and then becoming the Kingdom, but first things first.
 
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
cthulhu: Why on earth would the pope crown you when you've just deprived him of his patrimony? Isn't he more likely to flee to France (or whereever) and conspire against you? If you want to play as a conqueror you should try to avoid this event anyway. CB shields are a crutch for wimps. Wouldn't they just make a conquest game boring and easy?
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Yeah, Like that'd be sooooo outlandish... Because he'd get his head knocked off otherwise? Maybe he will be able to flee, maybe he won't. If he does we'll produce a new anti-pope in a heartbeat. Of course France or whatever power will conspire and go to war over this upheaval of stability. The Pope being between a rock and a hard place is nothing new in Italian politics.

Why would a conqueror avoid the event? You want to be able to legitimize and cementing your gains. At least in the eyes of ordinary men. They game is already easy. Easy but fun. Rebellions though, are pretty boring. CB's is the game's way of showing some sort of legitimate claim and acceptance. That's key and the goal of claiming KoI. Almost as important is glory and that'd be very important to the kind of man or family that would achieve mastery of Italy.
 
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Well it is always called the "Patrimony of St Peter", although that's very misleading as it dates only from Charlemagne. But anyway, the Pope stripped of his lands is still a very powerful individual, and I don't see how he could be susceptible to coersion. Heck most temporal leaders were not particularly amenable to coersion when they had been captured, how much less so would a pope be?
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you're right, of course, but i think it's even more misleading than that ... patrimony comes from the latin patrimonium, & i suspect, although i do not know for sure, that the idea in canon law comes from the roman idea of a patrimony in roman law which is much closer to the way we use it today, to whit: "property or an estate inherited from one's father." my guess is that under canon law ecclesiastical property & rights had an analagous status to that of typical patrimonies. (i have a few books about the history of canon law coming to me so i may be able to do better than guess in the future. the catholic encyclopedia yielded no results for "patrimony" unfortunately."

in terms of force majeur it is certainly true that captured soldiers of rank were unlikely to be much intimidated due to the traditions involved. the pope, too, had many resources at his disposal & huge political assets, which wd make it difficult to humble him. but i think it cd have been done &, indeed, i think there are historical examples of it having been done. i think, i guess, w/ the chthonic one that it shd be a possibility ... maybe more plausible later in the game period than the first half, however. i don't think that becoming a principality shd be a prerequisite for some state simply deciding that it was the kingdom of italy.

OT: have there been any suggestions that are practical for eu2 to simulate the pope's strength ... most notably in terms of purchasing power? i think that something ought to be done, esp. if we intend to weaken the papal states even further.
 
Reading about the establishment of the Kingdom of Sicily shows how you quite 'easily' can wrest concessions off the Pontiff if the circumstances are dire for him....
 
Originally posted by cthulhu
Yeah, Like that'd be sooooo outlandish... Because he'd get his head knocked off otherwise? Maybe he will be able to flee, maybe he won't. If he does we'll produce a new anti-pope in a heartbeat. Of course France or whatever power will conspire and go to war over this upheaval of stability. The Pope being between a rock and a hard place is nothing new in Italian politics.

Why would a conqueror avoid the event? You want to be able to legitimize and cementing your gains. At least in the eyes of ordinary men. They game is already easy. Easy but fun. Rebellions though, are pretty boring. CB's is the game's way of showing some sort of legitimate claim and acceptance. That's key and the goal of claiming KoI. Almost as important is glory and that'd be very important to the kind of man or family that would achieve mastery of Italy.
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Wimp! :)

Other than something that happened over 200 years before the game starts anyone have any examples? Anti-Popes (of which there were several after 1419) didn't fare particularly well. Which is to say they were ignored by everyone except their patron.

Was Clement VII overawed? Was Pius VI? Or Pius VII for that matter who was under similar military pressue? Every time that a military power was able to exert pressure on the Pope it HAD to temper it's demands to what the Pope would accept. Forty years after the period, how about Pius IX?

I think it's an awful idea that you should just be able to conquer all of Italy and be given cores. And the idea that the pope would have acquiesced to that is ridiculous - If cthulu executed the Pope the cardinals would elect another, and he'd be no better off, but would have aroused immense hostility. In the case where you have the pope as prisoner he STILL holds a LOT of cards.

edit: maybe the pope should just get some cash in the Jubilee events. Still, tpc, I disagree with you about how much of the papal wealth could really be turned to in-game activities. But I'm still keen on beefing up Julius II, the Warrior Pope.
 
About triggers: i will add those, or maybe tom is going to do it... but about stability a -5 seems to me a little to harsh, considered that the pope legitimate your claims... maybe a -1 or -2.

Imo if someone is going to conquer PAP, we should give no penalty and no bonus event. Just keep the things with european CB and no core for the owner for marche and lazio. The diplo penalty is harsh enough and a bonus (adding cores) seems to me ahistorical. The only point where an agreement should be possible is as protestant issue came out, but i have no idea how to paint this into a event.

Instead about Naple some event could be usefull.
 
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Wimp! :)

Other than something that happened over 200 years before the game starts anyone have any examples? Anti-Popes (of which there were several after 1419) didn't fare particularly well. Which is to say they were ignored by everyone except their patron.

Was Clement VII overawed? Was Pius VI? Or Pius VII for that matter who was under similar military pressue? Every time that a military power was able to exert pressure on the Pope it HAD to temper it's demands to what the Pope would accept. Forty years after the period, how about Pius IX?

I think it's an awful idea that you should just be able to conquer all of Italy and be given cores. And the idea that the pope would have acquiesced to that is ridiculous - If cthulu executed the Pope the cardinals would elect another, and he'd be no better off, but would have aroused immense hostility. In the case where you have the pope as prisoner he STILL holds a LOT of cards.

edit: maybe the pope should just get some cash in the Jubilee events. Still, tpc, I disagree with you about how much of the papal wealth could really be turned to in-game activities. But I'm still keen on beefing up Julius II, the Warrior Pope.
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you're going to force me to hit the books again aren't you, isaak? :)

in terms of the view that the pope's weren't much more than petty ambition in secular affairs i think that it was the general sense among most of the secular authorities (although this distinction may be entirely anachronistic) pretty much as early as the 15th century. i cd be completely wrong, but that is my genuine sense. i did say that i thought it was probably more plausible in the second half of the game. & i certainly do agree w/ you that the pope had a lot of cards to play, more than most rulers actually, & i wd hope that we cd do something to try & represent that in the eep ... i think that more cash wd certainly help although i think more cd be done, not sure what, exactly, unfortunately. :)

i also think it wd be an awful change to simply give cores to whomever takes italy ... as i hope you trust ... however, i do think that a more raison d'etat event structure is entirely reasonable & historical although i agree w/ you that the consequences shd be on the far end of the severe spectrum.

since i've been playing MP my view of cash has entirely revolutionized ... in MP serious cash does very effectively get played out along the lines of real life, in my view. for example, in one game i am playing a completely economically destroyed poland, however, due to financing by rich states i am still a force to be reckoned w/. i think that by giving the pope more revenues ... w/o giving tech advantages ... wd not only make the papal states much more interesting in terms of MP, but also wd compensate it even as AI for its huge underpoweredness in eep.
 
Originally posted by Barbalele
About triggers: i will add those, or maybe tom is going to do it... but about stability a -5 seems to me a little to harsh, considered that the pope legitimate your claims... maybe a -1 or -2.
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I think that -5 seems like a good amount especially if you are using in a way to delay the handing out of cores.
 
Very interesting idea. But you'd better warn the player about this or they may not keep calm enough to let the BB come down. It can also be circumvented by releasing vassals, but I suppose that's OK.

I can't imagine another Pope being in a worse situation that Pius VI in 1798. An enemy who was violently opposed to the church with an army at his gates. The reconciliation only happened with his sucessor, and even then Napoleon HAD to make concessions to get the Pope to go along. I think that's a pretty good case from the EU period.
 
But then it isn't really a delay right? Still I see what you're doing. Seems reasonable.
 
Brock:

It seems the wimp part really got to you. Sorry about that old sport.

You mention nothing new that I haven't covered in earlier posts.

Now, I can create or edit the damn event myself to make it 'right'. The reason I brought it up is simply think it's an credible option. And as I said before: even more likely than yours.
 
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