Italys Role in MP, ideas?

[unmerged(12244)]

Ive noticed in many games that Italy crumbles very fast in MP.
Of course they need support by Germany but it seem generally that Italy is harder to play than UK.

To be sucessful in playing Italy in MP please post ideas.

Its obvious that one strat. for Italy is to close the Med. as fast as possible, but that seem impossible without alot of support from Germany.
Gibraltar is virtually impossible to get control over early, this leads to a good foothold for in Africa and in turn for attacks on Italy mainland and Yugo.

How to prevent this?

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Depends on a lot of factors really. I have seen Italy enter the Allies, and the commintern. If your playing a historic MP game then here is my advice for Italy.

1. Consolidate your Navy: maybe simplistic but I think Italy starts with 40+ ships. Stacking is an exploit in my opinion, however some groups allow for it, if its acceptable in the group your in stack your italian navy and roam the Med for the british. If you cant stack then create 3-4 navies with the maximum number of ships and group them close together and roam the med. The point here is with all your ships in the med the UK will have to commit a large amount of its navy to fight you, and that leaves less navy to fight the Kreigsmarine. Granted the Kreigsmarine isnt a powerful force but you hope the german player builds some subs and harrasses britian.

2. Sort your military: Italy has a big army to start, mountain troops scattered about some calvalry as well. Again another exploit but some groups allow it. Take some of your calvalry and strat redeploy. Lowers your supply needs and allows your to maintain your inf and moterized divisions. Also those calvalry units I place them in Ethopia close to the belgium congo. If your in the Axis and Germany DOW's belgium those cal units move fast and will grab that rubber producing region. Also move your mountain troops to your border with France. Slowly reinforce to 100 all your other units but becareful of that supply slider because with the limited IC's you have, and the large army you dont have much for production and research.

3. The Med: This is your pond and your region. For me I like to make removing the UK from Nothern africa my priority and achieve it without german support. IF you can achieve this goal that free's up german troops for conquest somewhere else. Having those navies around help as well, once you attack use those ships for bombardment.

4. Yugo and France: I would let the germans have Yugoslavia for the med port. If you goto war early against Yugo and it has the right government the WE of the allies wont shoot through the roof. Allowing Germany to have Yugoslavia isnt what a lot of Italian players want but its better to have Germany there so he can move troops to the balkans faster, and not have to bust through gibraltar to get them into the MEd. France should be vichied. Its tempting to grab some land as Italy but let the germans vichy France, a decent buffer, and it helps Japan as well. Normally in an MP game I ask for some resources from Germany or Japan for Vichy.

5. Greece/Turkey: Here is where Italy should get a bone. I would ask Germany for thier support via expiditionary forces for a conquest of Greece and Turkey. These two gems will give Italy some nice Jewels in its crown, better strategic postion for a middle east or russian campaign and great postion to grab bulgaria if it isnt already in the Axis.

6. Defense and support: Once France has been vichied your going to have to support and defend Axis territory. Work out something with the Germans and decide together how best to defend the Med and atlantic wall. Italian infantry makes for decent coastal defense with fortifications. Send some expiditionary forces if you can and take that reduction of supply IC and build more or research.

7. Poor mouth: The tactic I use as Italy in MP is crying poor mouth the to other Axis. Your position is important to the Germans, even though they maybe the big boys he is going to need your support. Give it to him, for a steady diet of tech. Review the house rules, if tech trading is there get as many gold theory techs as you can from Germany, and Land Doctrine.

8. WM strategies: coordiante with Germany. He has surplus coal and can do 4-1 trades to get what he needs, Japan has steeel. Get together and in 36 set up a three way market strategy where your trading from strength and can focus on one thing and then ship to your partners and they intern supply you with the resource they are obtaining.

9. Double Cross: You can always lead Germany on and ask for all the tech and resources you can get and make a side deal with either the allies or the commintern. Make sure you get something from either for your double cross. Either one of those alliances would happily take you in, remember to gauge your group determine if they want a historical match or its freeform. If its freeform milk the germans, and join one or the other alliances and keep your motorized units and the alps and move North one war breaks out.

10. Solo: as Italy you can early on attack and annex Yugo, Albaina, Ethopia, and either bulgaria romania, or greece. Always check the government types and try to hit non democratic governments. If you take this route do it early and do it with some kind of assurance from germany that he wont invade. Once you get these new lands consolidate and defend. You will have pissed some people off but your still have your ace in the hole, and that is your free to join any alliance you want, one of them will be happy to take you.

Well these arent gospel but they are some of the things I have come accross and tried in my MP career.

 

[Minodrin]

Well, in my opinion Italy is capable of ruling the Mediterranean. Giving Yugoslavia to the Germans is insane which castrates the Italian manpower pool.

Gibraltar is hard, but not impossible if you annex Spain and assault it with mountain troops and naval bombardment and bombers (Ofcourse the UK can heavily reinforce it, but by Controlling Ceuta you can close the med anyway, right?)

Anyway, in my opinion a "Can do" mentality is far better than playing as a puppet of Germany.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

I would say -

1) control the med.
2) stalemate africa (keep british tied down)
3) take over greece/yugoslavia and take the vichy area
4) help germany destroy russia - after that its all over for the allies...

F

 

[unmerged(12746)]

Originally posted by Minodrin
Well, in my opinion Italy is capable of ruling the Mediterranean. Giving Yugoslavia to the Germans is insane which castrates the Italian manpower pool.

Gibraltar is hard, but not impossible if you annex Spain and assault it with mountain troops and naval bombardment and bombers (Ofcourse the UK can heavily reinforce it, but by Controlling Ceuta you can close the med anyway, right?)

Anyway, in my opinion a "Can do" mentality is far better than playing as a puppet of Germany.

Good points Minodrin. I would disagree on Yugoslavia though only so that there is a direct land line from the Med to Berlin for multiple reasons.

I understand your statement about playing as a german puppet and as Italy you dont have to, however I feel strongly that Italy and Germany need to work together closely in MP, even if that means Italy plays a lesser role. The Yugoslavian manpower pool can be easily made up with superior -high org- expiditionary forces from Germany. I once played an MP game where the Italian player wanted Yugoslavia, I was germany and insisted on it so I could get into the Med and have a stage for the Balkans. In the end I got the Italian player into my strategy by providing 6 mech units as expitionary forces and the Kreigsmarine at his disposal. The Italian economy isnt going to be able to build a whole lot of quality troops with the MP anyway without German Tech, cant have both with Italy, with your 45 spare IC's you can research or build divisions.

In the end its German tech, and its Industrial base that will carry the Axis in Europe. Italy has a strong army but not nearly enough IC's to strengthen it via upgrades in tech and Doc. For that reason Italy is better suited to be a puppet for Germany and toe the Axis line and reap what it can from Germany. Italy can however be a serious wild card in MP because with its location, starting army, and condensed naval presence can be the scale tipping addition to any alliance.

Having a can do attitude is great for Italy, spreading through the Med is a viable oft used tactic. Taking Yugo, Greece, and other balkan states is a well known and used tactic. But in the end once the conquest is done as Italy your still going to need the Germans to help you defend this new empire, and to bless it. If not a german DOW on Italy will not bring a DOW from the Allies and an extended Italy can be defeated by Germany rather quickly if Poland remains as a buffer state from Russia. Italy is going to have to come to the Germans or goto someone else. In the end its IC base is to small for it to act independantly for long.

An additional 2 cents...

 

[unmerged(14035)]

In our current MP game (DEG HoI Game 4), it is December 1942 and Italy is still not a part of the Axis. Italy is however at war with the Russians (and so is Germany). Sure, one of the human controlled Allies nations can DOW Italy (at a 40% dissent hit), but it would be more or less idiotic to do this.

My thoughts on good Italian MP strategies:
1) Stay out of the war until you are ready (you dont have to join Axis as soon as Germany is at war with them).

2) Navy: For navy, its subs all the way. In 1940 you get Arturo Riccardi as chief of navy, his "Indirect Approach Doctrine" (aka "Free Subs Doctrine") means that you can turn out bucketloads of cheap subs. With some very basic tech, your medium-ranged subs will have 9 in naval attack, which is a huge amount for such a small IC cost. Also, a sub fleet can get out into the Atlantic any time you want, where as a surface fleet can't unless you capture Gibraltar.

3) Research: Its expensive to tech into both infantry, subs, a tank model, a fighter model, and a bomber model. Obviously, teching infantry and subs is a must (I guess you could tech DDs instead), but going for both tanks and planes is very expensive tech-wise. Borrow units from the Germans if you need to fill your gaps.

4) Conquests: Take Ethiopia, Yugo, Albania, Greece. Taking Bulgaria is usually a good idea as well. Take Romania if you can, or get them as your puppet (or give them to zee Germans). Remember that Italy realy doesnt have a good minister that lets you get the ICs from conquered territories (prince of terror is available first in 1944).

 

[jgbaxter]

I disagree with leaving the Germans, I find them a great ally in almost all game, and more importantly a more fun and interesting ally. Italy is one of the most rewarding, active and joyously frustrating nations to play. Oh, let's not forget about ruling Africa, not as hard as it looks to experienced players, and much harder than most new players expect.

 

[unmerged(12244)]

and much harder than most new players expect.

definately agree with this. alot of times the Italian player get stuck just before Suez.If you are unable to close the med. early or receive plenty of back-up from Germany this is a real challenge.

 

[unmerged(12244)]

BTW: thanks to all of you for your input, some fresch ideas.

/Regards

 

[MegaPIMP]

my greatest enemy as italy is the damn desert! it can be a hell trying to counqer territorys with low infra. and south africa can be a pain to, having turkey as a puppet can be a good idea(dont want SU on your border ).

Watch out for landings near etihopia to, they come sneaking up real quick!

 

[jgbaxter]

Well yes the desert is a major hassle, of course most of it is not worth getting, except, it does help supply your troops and cut off the allies, not to mention that shade of green looks nice.

Usually I'll just take 3 Mech and place them in different points to meet up in the middle of nowhere (aka the middle of Africa). Not a major goal but somewhat helpful. Also getting Spain onside and perhaps military access in Liberia makes snapping up allied land much easier, and distracts the allies a little from Egypt and East Africa... .. .

 

[MegaPIMP]

anyone playing as spain in mp games? they should be a fat wild card i say! having them running around in africa isnt to great for the allies and spain can come creeping up in southern france also(damn helpful if the german front has reached stalemate, well for the axis that is ).

 

[unmerged(12244)]

anyone playing as spain in mp games? they should be a fat wild card i say! having them running around in africa isnt to great for the allies and spain can come creeping up in southern france also(damn helpful if the german front has reached stalemate, well for the axis that is ).

I say that it can be over real quickly if Germans dont help out as Spain.
U have a weak strategic position, weak troops, not much IC.
Not tried though...

 

[unmerged(16020)]

Originally posted by MegaPIMP
anyone playing as spain in mp games? they should be a fat wild card i say! having them running around in africa isnt to great for the allies and spain can come creeping up in southern france also(damn helpful if the german front has reached stalemate, well for the axis that is ).

Having two French calvary stop your entire army, woooooo. They are good at breaking a stalemate in France due to the their troops having to be shipped around, but their abilities in Africa are pretty much limited to Dakar.

 

[Janster]

my tips

Upgrade IC, all provinces below 6 ic atleast...
Build flak like crazy in north african provinces, atleast tobruk and tripoli..
Focus on getting a little mobile element and fighter cover, the worst thing that can happen to you is that 20+ english bomber squads land in africa, and you're toast.
Basic fighters isn't hard to get.
Improve your army somewhat, stay away from the expensive doctrines, they org isn't what you need, you need hitting power.

Subs are nice, naval bombers are not, stay away from all bombers and such.they cost too much and eat both MP and IC.

Use the mobile element(mot inf with engineer) to eat provinces when you attack, hope that the english is busy elsewhere, reatreat and keep out if you see his fleet.

Make sure you are prepared to retreat and be VERY careful in north africa, a loss there can lead to troops heading into desert.

As for eating of AI countries..do whatever, just coordinate with the german.

janster

 

[unmerged(16020)]

Anyway, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the fighter cover. I believe Italy doesn't have the IC's to do much more than infantry until the early years of war. If the British show up with more planes than your 12-stack you start with can handle then ask the Germans for help. Those 20 bombers attacking you mean they aren't attacking him, and the German player has no interest in you losing two dozen divisions.

 

[Janster]

aha

Hey, that worked, thanks...

Anyhow, getting some fighters say..12 of em, if you include the ones you already have isn't too big a project, and you will atleast have some to spare.
The german usually helps, yes, but remember, that by the time his planes are down there, and have enough org to aid you, you might be toast already.
Fighter cover is always nice, but I agree, its expensive.

As for infantry, you got enough, no need to use more IC on it than absolutly neccesary, having a mobile striking force is worth a lot more.

But then again, Italy's role is ofen defined by the german progress, you might not even be in a war with the allies, in which case you have to fight russians instead, where fighters won't be so useful ,but your mobile element might still..nothing is more annoying than to have an Italian running about in your back country.

oh..Militia aka disbandees should be treated as their name says, but keep the horses, they are excellent province eaters, and they don't loose speed when cut off

Janster

 

[unmerged(11130)]

About Yugoslavia usually in my game Germany takes Slovenia and Croatia while Italy takes the rest. That way Germany has a Med. port (in case Italy needs help in North Africa, which she shouldn't), but Italy gets a nice chunk as well. As for Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania those are all free game unless an ally coups them. Then you have to wait for war. Turkey is another nice move for her, because it opens up Iraq and North Africa. Spain is optional and could be a good idea, but remember if you do it you just tied up a lot of troops because the allies can land in your territory after you take Gibraltar and Suez. Not taking Spain leaves most of your troops free because you do not have to guard a whole lot once the Med. is close (good sized army in Egypt, Gibraltar, and Iraq is all). Also I have had Germany use most of my troops to guard fortress Europe while he is in Russia, works real well especially if Italy is behind a little in tech. I usually pull everything but militia out of Ethiopia before the war starts, simple reason is you cannot supply them. If you cannot supply them what's the point in trying to make them fight there? Just reassure your men that one day they will come back victorious

 

[mvsnconsolegene]

Ive noticed in many games that Italy crumbles very fast in MP.

Crazy. I am a weirdo and usually ONLY play Italy...so maybe I am that good at it, but I've never lost a MP game playing Italy.

The main trick is that you can't commit to anything, the only way to carve an empire is to do it quickly (starts out with a huge modern , well....sorta....., army that can role over yugoslavia, ethiopia, greece likity split) but that kinda depends on how much other players are paying attention to you. If they underestimate you, you can find argintina, brazil, saudi arabia, bulgaria, romania, hungary, greece all under your influence before the other players have even declared war. Then throwing your weight around can really make a difference.

I usually do not join the axis on it's endeavour to destroy the allies, but usually when they declare war on SOV I help them out.

Anyways, I've played Italy verses people as SOV, GER, US, and never been beaten (note: that doesn't mean I beat them, USA and SOV are hard to beat alone as Italy...haven't done it since bersion 1.2)

- MVSN

 

[unmerged(14249)]

Originally posted by mvsnconsolegene
Crazy. I am a weirdo and usually ONLY play Italy...so maybe I am that good at it, but I've never lost a MP game playing Italy.
...
I usually do not join the axis on it's endeavour to destroy the allies, but usually when they declare war on SOV I help them out.
...
Anyways, I've played Italy verses people as SOV, GER, US, and never been beaten (note: that doesn't mean I beat them, USA and SOV are hard to beat alone as Italy...

I don't think I've ever seen a game finish properly. When you say that you've never lost, I assume that you mean that your country has never fallen. As I understand it, winning the game requires you to join one of the three alliances and if you have a Fascist government you can only join the Axis. If I were Germany and the Axis was winning then I wouldn't admit you to the Axis if you applied late and I no longer needed you.

Andrew