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My big issue is that all species can easily be made into harmonious, peaceloving xenophiles no matter what they started as. It should be extremely hard to re-educate the Prikkiki-Ti into peace-loving xenophiles after conquering them for example. These are different species, it isn't like different human cultures where it only is a matter of educating new generations differently.

While I realize that there is Sci-fi that doeswork like that there are also Sci-fi settings where different species have fundamentally different values. Some species just love fighting/are naturally aggressive etc. and would not simply assimilate smoothly into a new society when conquered, no matter how much time passes. I'm not sure how interested Paradox is in adding an optional 'preferred ethics' setting for species in the empire creation though.
 
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I use to play Fanatic Egalitarian a lot - and if you set yourself up with Utopian Abundance right from the start - it was a hard game getting the CG to where it needs to be, not including a early research world - a distinct example of being difficult but it also relied on you to set that as a default for all future species which I usually forgot to do.

And I think that's where the game lets itself down a bit because the policies are so easily missed on start and maybe should be in the galaxy setup screen? But you are right in general I think, there isn't enough consequence to bother a player.
 
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Having penalties managing other races is not equivalent to space nazis. Its simply representing that there are cultural (or...speciesual) things that are hard to match up and this is represented by a penalty in production in some way.

Even the United Federation of Planets was exactly that, a Federation. Not a unified government. The most well known xenophile organization in sci fi history properly realized that having humans directly manage other species like Vulcan or Klingons would lead to too many troubles which would be represented in Stellaris as production penalties and unrest. And this is for a sci fi universe (star trek) where the other races are other humanoid species with funny rubber mask-like facial differences, the problems would be even larger if there was a race like Necroids or giant bug monsters or w/e involved with entirely different biologies and communication methods and so on.

(also I would like to point out that the "space nazis" of 40k is also effectively a federation and that other species in the imperium are largely left alone to prosper in whatever way they see fit so long as they pay their taxes on time, supply military resources when needed, and don't endanger the empire by involving themselves in chaos. The 40k Imperium is actually relatively neutral on the xenophobe/phile axis so long as you praise the emperor.)

No, the imperium is not a multi species Federation, it's a genocidal hell-state with a few WH fantasy things folded into second class human subspecies.

The example of the Federation is more relevant, but decentralized confederation with internal free movement. It can't be represented in Stellaris as is because it would be a federation of one system minors and even shared systems.

My big issue is that all species can easily be made into harmonious, peaceloving xenophiles no matter what they started as. It should be extremely hard to re-educate the Prikkiki-Ti into peace-loving xenophiles after conquering them for example. These are different species, it isn't like different human cultures where it only is a matter of educating new generations differently.

While I realize that there is Sci-fi that doeswork like that there are also Sci-fi settings where different species have fundamentally different values. Some species just love fighting/are naturally aggressive etc. and would not simply assimilate smoothly into a new society when conquered, no matter how much time passes. I'm not sure how interested Paradox is in adding an optional 'preferred ethics' setting for species in the empire creation though.

This is ethics and ethics attraction. Which are too week and as a system are right up there with war that are in desperate need of an overhaul. Yes, it should be a slow and painful process to teach and beat the genocidal tendencies out of the Prikki, but after 50-100 years there is no reason that the Prikki on the newly terraformed Venus that have adopted local culture should be a problem.


As far as Acceptance being just hitting a button, that's literally every government policy in the game.
 
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No, the imperium is not a multi species Federation, it's a genocidal hell-state with a few WH fantasy things folded into second class human subspecies.

Most of the Imperium's enemies are what Stellaris would call a "crisis" and for which genocide is the only option:

Chaos: Ongoing Crisis which can appear anywhere and turn entire worlds and armies into demons. This already happened before and was the greatest destabilizing event in the history of the Imperium from which all the other problems multiplied out of control causing immense galaxy-wide war.
Orks: Ongoing Crisis of self-replicating fungi that destroys everything.
Tyranids: Ongoing crisis of genocidal bug monsters conducting a galaxy-level invasion
Necrons: Arguably a crisis of genocidal cyborg-zombie monsters. Technically can be reasoned with but not practically able to coexist with.
Dark Eldar: Corrupted by Chaos to the point where they are literally forced to torture and enslave other races to survive. Can't be coexisted with unless you're expecting to be able to convince them to kill themselves.

There's only two major races outside the Empire in 40k where diplomacy is even conceivably possible, the Tau and the Eldar. And these races, while sometimes at odds with the empire, the whole setup of the universe being so that anyone can fight anyone in a tabletop board game, absolutely do conduct diplomacy between each other, cooperate at times, try to avoid fighting each other if one of the above races is around, and don't instantly genocide each other on sight as a matter of principle.
 
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Of course I'm joking a bit, it's just how it looks in the game and that's it. But personally this is what stops me from playing such an empire, it's too easy, I would like to achieve a state where everyone is equal to be some kind of challenge. And I don't even mean that accepting everyone and simply having as many pop(s) as possible is the most obvious meta in this game (all pros, no cons), but that roleplaying an empire that wants to unite the galaxy on the basis of equality comes down only to conquering/subordinating the rest, you don't have to work out this equality at the level of your empire in any way, you don't have to deal with the problems that a multi-species empire would probably have (or at least this is a common theme in space fantasy that I would like to face in a game someday).

For this, I think faction politics need to be fleshed out more. I think there are things like Repugnant trait aliens attracting pops to the Xenophobe faction, but nothing comes of it. It would be interesting if you could get some events or situations from it. Seems like if you're at war with an empire and you have some of their main species who aren't slaves, they could cause some trouble as well. Maybe you should get free espionage assets if your main species pops are in someone else's empire, stuff like that.
 
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IE: Any pops you conquered from an actual genocidal empire.
These should create issues for your empire, should you chose to accept them, permanently, triggering assassination attempts against your rulers, killing other pops, increasing crime, joining opposing factions and generally being stuck close to 0% happiness forever.

Seems a bit extreme. You should have some long-term consequences, yes, but permanent 0% happiness implies that nobody will ever assimilate. In truth, I'd expect most purifier pops to mellow out eventually once they're no longer exposed to the government's propaganda and can see for themselves that the xeno menace is not actually out to eat their children.

Then there are those that just can't work, like the example I've given above, giant cockroaches or spiders living among humans are something that would NEVER be accepted, most people would desire their complete extinction, the mere sight of them would invoke visceral disgust or terrifying fear and that's something biological that can't be changed unless you change humanity into something else, having cute short fox-people walking among us however wouldn't be that big of a deal.

That's absurd. I'm a human myself, and I don't desire the complete extinction of all spiders. I don't want to touch them, but I don't kill any I find. I know that some people even keep tarantualas as pets. And that's with completely non-sapient spiders; throw in renowed holovid personality Spider Joe and his beloved comedy sketches, and you can get even further.

You know what else humans have a visceral reaction to? Physical deformities. It's an evolutionary instinct that keeps us safe from infections. When I was growing up, there was a kid in my class with a cleft palate. To us, he was just a funny-looking kid. I might have thought he looked creepy at first--I was young enough that I don't remember when I met him--but the entire class was able to love the guy regardless of any ingrained instincts.

Besides, it's absurdly impractical to go through every species portrait and rank it based on how repulsive it should be to each other portrait.

There's also the issue with traits, some, like decadent, weight a species, naturally, towards authoritarian governments, so spcecies with certain traits would never, ever, accept certain government types and always push for changing or deposing democratic governments, this isn't about acceptance or tolerance, they are naturally wired towards not understanding certain moral systems and given the choice they should always chose the opposite of what your empire wants.

Traits are probably the closest you can get to things that should cause actual friction, and even then you're oversimplifying things. Decadent pops would certainly prefer a xenophobic authoritarian government if they could be in charge, yes. In an empire where they aren't primary, on the other hand, decadent pops would prefer xenophilia, as that at least gives them a chance to become elites.

And you're leaving out the traits that should naturally incline pops towards "nicer" governments, as well. Nomadic pops, for instance, would likely prefer egalitarianism, as that gives them the best guarantee of freedom of movement.
 
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Traits are probably the closest you can get to things that should cause actual friction, and even then you're oversimplifying things. Decadent pops would certainly prefer a xenophobic authoritarian government if they could be in charge, yes. In an empire where they aren't primary, on the other hand, decadent pops would prefer xenophilia, as that at least gives them a chance to become elites.

And you're leaving out the traits that should naturally incline pops towards "nicer" governments, as well. Nomadic pops, for instance, would likely prefer egalitarianism, as that gives them the best guarantee of freedom of movement.

In all honesty decadent should depend on pop strata. Decadent workers should be Egalitarian in general because they really don't want long work hours (and in general, it's basically a free trait if you are running a +happiness living standard or government reform)
 
I'm actually impressed this thread has lot of thoughtful commentary on interesting event/roleplay challenges, including logistics, and not just people spouting biological essentialism tropes common in fiction :O

(honestly, I think amount of "lol space war crimes" and 40k posting makes me underestimate paradox fandom at times, its refreshing.)
 
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Seems a bit extreme. You should have some long-term consequences, yes, but permanent 0% happiness implies that nobody will ever assimilate. In truth, I'd expect most purifier pops to mellow out eventually once they're no longer exposed to the government's propaganda and can see for themselves that the xeno menace is not actually out to eat their children.



That's absurd. I'm a human myself, and I don't desire the complete extinction of all spiders. I don't want to touch them, but I don't kill any I find. I know that some people even keep tarantualas as pets. And that's with completely non-sapient spiders; throw in renowed holovid personality Spider Joe and his beloved comedy sketches, and you can get even further.

You know what else humans have a visceral reaction to? Physical deformities. It's an evolutionary instinct that keeps us safe from infections. When I was growing up, there was a kid in my class with a cleft palate. To us, he was just a funny-looking kid. I might have thought he looked creepy at first--I was young enough that I don't remember when I met him--but the entire class was able to love the guy regardless of any ingrained instincts.

Besides, it's absurdly impractical to go through every species portrait and rank it based on how repulsive it should be to each other portrait.



Traits are probably the closest you can get to things that should cause actual friction, and even then you're oversimplifying things. Decadent pops would certainly prefer a xenophobic authoritarian government if they could be in charge, yes. In an empire where they aren't primary, on the other hand, decadent pops would prefer xenophilia, as that at least gives them a chance to become elites.

And you're leaving out the traits that should naturally incline pops towards "nicer" governments, as well. Nomadic pops, for instance, would likely prefer egalitarianism, as that gives them the best guarantee of freedom of movement.
Of course there should be nicer traits of naturally nice species, the conformist, docile, etc...

But you'd be dead wrong about the bugs, you might be a very crazy exception to the rule but the overwhelming majority could not suffer the thought of even looking at a giant bug like that, let alone the thought of touching it, they'd rather die, hell, it's very common for women to actually freak out and throw whatever they have in hand at cockroaches the instant they see them, including other people, some species have absolutely no chance of ever, ever being compatible, even if a tiny minority can dehumanize themselves and pretend to be cool around them while holding back either terrifying fear or absolute disgust.

I can easily see humans being compeltely incompatible with bugs, possibly most crustaceans and fungoids, and I'd imagine lithoids would feel better around plantoids and fungoids as both plants and fungus probably grow on their bodies naturally, but everything else would probably start looking too alien.

And, as I said, there is absolutely no chance a psionic fanatic spiritualist pop from an ascended empire that understands souls could ever tolerate the existence of machine intelligence, specially living among them, they'd be considered a mockery of everything they see as sacred, something worse than Jim Crow to americans.

Also, there is no such thing as "mellowing" a genocidal pop, they come from an empire that would make the real life nazis look like the nicest people in the galaxy, they do not even view aliens as people, they are filth to be cleansed and nothing else, imagine human terrorists that kill themselves for their beliefs just to take out as many of the "other" as possible, now realize those are 2 human groups which are very close to each other, and now imagine something that isn't even an animal, isn't even from this world, and has no hope of ever seeing anything other than filth in front of him, be it becuase of his biology, or society. They should pose a real internal threat for xenophiles as the moment they enter your empire you'd be forced to make hard choices, or live with the permanent consequences, they do not engage in diplomacy, they do not make deals, and they do not integrate, at least, they shouldn't.

To think that "we all" want the same things, have the same goals, and have different ways of reaching it is a very human perspective, aliens, by definition, do not share this, they do not even want the same things you do, they do not see what you think is moral as moral, they do not want to ever agree with what you want.

Here's another example: An insectoid collective that doesn't look too repulsive somehow integrates in human society, except they are fundamentally different from human psychology, they do not even understand the concept of indivuduality and live for their collective, so they often see a human behaving in a way that doesn't help society, like littering, and they just go and kill that human, then you judge them, send them to jail, none of their species care, because individuals do not matter to them, they see another human littering and kill them again, and again, and again, what do you do? They can't even understand why you'd be angry about this, and they do not care about human forms of punishment, until you punish the collective, their collective do not care about your justice system.

Even worse, the moment they decide they had enough and that humanity, as a collective, is harming their society and what they view as moral they start attacking all humans as they see no difference between one criminal or an entire group of people, how do you react to this? How do you integrate a species with such alien ideals? They don't even have to be hiveminds per se, but they'd surely feel much more confortable living with pops from one.

Currently, what we have in Stellaris are humans using different alien skinsuits.

Edit: How do you think a species that abhors the idea of killing any other kind of life and lives off sunlight, radiation, filtering or whatever else, would feel if they got to meet humans and their meat/vegetable consumption? Do you think they'd just shrug as they walk into their new super markets filled with corpses of animals & plants as people naturally chat about what they want to eat today? Do you think that'd be just a "cultural misunderstanding" they could clear up after a few thousands of years?

What about that parasitic funguns species growing out of the teddy bear? What if you heard them chatting about how they enjoy the fuzzy feeling they get when they start consuming children, particularly, as their cognitive capability is lower and therefore they feel much more fear and pain in the process, a process that's required to their survival, how many years do you think it would take to assimilate that species so we could send some of our young so they could "assimilate" with them to survive? Or would you rather give them another specie's babies instead? Which species would a xenophile egalitarian utopia chose as sacrifices to allow these aliens to live?

Or you walk into a planet and find out it's the fungus vs teddybears, they live there, they've been fighting for survival against each other, one needs the other to survive, and the other is trying to defend itself, they can't survive without a parasitic bond with a sentient being, which is extremely painful and condemns the person to be a permanent slave within their body, while alive, they are both "people", which side would the xenophile egalitarian utopia help? Or would they just turn around and pretend they didn't see that planet?

What about Necroids/Necrophage?
 
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My preffered way of solving the problem is to make species identity matter more.

Species identity should be separate from "national" identity. For example, humans living in UNE and Commonwealth should hold the same species identity (humans) and different "national" identities (UNE or Commonwealth). In the same manner, aliens living in UNE should have their own alien identities but identify "nationally" with UNE.

To make it work, species identity should not be concerned with ethics or civics, it should be tied to traits. Basically, even if the aliens within your borders share ethics of the founder species, the problem may arise from trait-like differences. The more the new species is different from the founders, especially if the traits are opposing (for example, adaptive vs nonadaptive), the more problems should there be integrating them. And on the contrary, it should be relatively easy to integrate a species that has similar traits to majority of your population.

That way there are no inherently "evil" species and integration is not about ethics, but about traits.

A more detailed suggestion is here.
 
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I really started to take issue with this around Machine Age when they allowed my purpose built Robot Exterminator enemies to be welcomed into all my neighbours after they lost a fringe Planet where they then become model citizens(Terminator 1> Terminator 2), but it has always been the case that you could just go next door and double your population with almost immediate benefits.

I'm wondering if instead of just a Happiness malus it shouldn't double(adjusted by Pop Ethics?) their Empire Size effect for the duration to make it more impactful? Maybe Amenities or Housing are less effective, or a Unity tax?
 
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I'm actually impressed this thread has lot of thoughtful commentary on interesting event/roleplay challenges, including logistics, and not just people spouting biological essentialism tropes common in fiction :O

(honestly, I think amount of "lol space war crimes" and 40k posting makes me underestimate paradox fandom at times, its refreshing.)

While I agree with the sentiment and most of the thread is constructive, there is a certain level of irony when you pair this post with the one right after.
I really started to take issue with this around Machine Age when they allowed my purpose built Robot Exterminator enemies to be welcomed into all my neighbours after they lost a fringe Planet where they then become model citizens(Terminator 1> Terminator 2), but it has always been the case that you could just go next door and double your population with almost immediate benefits.

I'm wondering if instead of just a Happiness malus it shouldn't double(adjusted by Pop Ethics?) their Empire Size for the duration to make it more impactful? Maybe Amenities or Housing are less effective, or a Unity tax?

This seems to be at least partially fixed in that machine pops become lobotomized if in an empire without synth tech, but that feels weird the other way in that previously free machine pops of individualist machines become appliance level robots
 
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While I agree with the sentiment and most of the thread is constructive, there is a certain level of irony when you pair this post with the one right after.
Never thought I would hear someone call me indirectly inhuman for liking arthropods. They never should see what fiction I write(its xenofiction).
 
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I agree on pop should have own culture groups and intergation into society should take longer than 10 years, but being permanant penalty is big nope to me. Like seriously, this is more like paranoia and make xenophobic axis as middle ground.
 
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PS: How do you think a species that abhors the idea of killing any other kind of life and lives off sunlight, radiation, filtering or whatever else, would feel if they got to meet humans and their meat/vegetable consumption? Do you think they'd just shrug as they walk into their new super markets filled with corpses of animals & plants as people naturally chat about what they want to eat today? Do you think that'd be just a "cultural misunderstanding" they could clear up after a few thousands of years?

What about that parasitic funguns species growing out of the teddy bear? What if you heard them chatting about how they enjoy the fuzzy feeling they get when they start consuming children, particularly, as their cognitive capability is lower and therefore they feel much more fear and pain in the process, a process that's required to their survival, how many years do you think it would take to assimilate that species so we could send some of our young so they could "assimilate" with them to survive? Or would you rather give them another specie's babies instead? Which species would a xenophile egalitarian utopia chose as sacrifices to allow these aliens to live?

Or you walk into a planet and find out it's the fungus vs teddybears, they live there, they've been fighting for survival against each other, one needs the other to survive, and the other is trying to defend itself, they can't survive without a parasitic bond with a sentient being, which is extremely painful and condemns the person to be a permanent slave within their body, while alive, they are both "people", which side would the xenophile egalitarian utopia help? Or would they just turn around and pretend they didn't see that planet?

What about Necroids?
Ok, so, there is a concept in philosophy that "ought implies can". In your examples given you have two different matters of predation and intelligence. The photosynthetic would have to learn that not every thing can exist via photosynthesis.

Your parasitic fungus is a more difficult example, and is one that folk have toyed with in speculative fiction for a long time. But what makes it interesting is it is a complicated question, what do with an obligate carnivore or parasite that is hyper-specific in what it needs. It could be an interesting narrative origin, but that's an edge case that you use if you want to write a philosophical treatise
 
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Ok, so, there is a concept in philosophy that "ought implies can". In your examples given you have two different matters of predation and intelligence. The photosynthetic would have to learn that not every thing can exist via photosynthesis.

Your parasitic fungus is a more difficult example, and is one that folk have toyed with in speculative fiction for a long time. But what makes it interesting is it is a complicated question, what do with an obligate carnivore or parasite that is hyper-specific in what it needs. It could be an interesting narrative origin, but that's an edge case that you use if you want to write a philosophical treatise
So they can live along with other species as long as they abandon their own being and everything they believe in, and everything they feel, that sounds easy enough, I'm sure they'd assimilate well in other societies and would tolerate living with butcher/vegetable shops.

As for the other examples, that's the point, hard questions or not they are a few examples (of many) species that could not possibly, ever, assimilate into our kind of society and vice versa, and not simply because of certain bonus traits or government types, the main point is that we're talking about aliens here, even on earth, a place where we share DNA and evolutionary history with pretty much every being we can find edge cases of creatures the overwhelming majority of people could not stand the idea of living with, now imagine something that doesn't share any DNA, might not even have DNA, didn't have the same evolutionary pressures, the same enviroment, the same planet, even the same solar system, they might not ever have developed anything close to the feelings we call empathy, individuality, maternal feelings or anything close to anything we know. There are differences we can't overcome with time, maybe genetic engineering can "fix" it by basically performing genocide against an entire species by turning them into something else, but then again, most ascension paths in Stellaris do something like that with the possible only exception being psionic.

I don't know if it's just me but when I think of exploring the galaxy I'd want to see beings that are truly alien, some are easy to live with (from a human perspective: space elves, mamalians, gnomes, dwarves etc..), some should be literally impossible (bugs, fungus, necrophages, etc..).

PS: There could even be a trait that diminishes this natural repulse between certain species types, like a tiny bug that kind of looks cute, like
1748374090191.png

While some should be harder to live with even if your species is specially compatible with that species type, like:
1748374134624.png

Honestly, as a human, I don't see people ever getting used to living with something like that, and I don't think they should have to pick the "repulsive" trait to invoke that feeling.
 
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I'm starting to think I might have jinxed the thread. "As a human", what, is xenophobia now an inherent genetic trait of humanity? They definitely shouldn't see the body horror romance story I once wrote.
 
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