Jurchen, Korea, Japan.

[Rhodz]

Thought I'd create a new thread for this.

I was thinking that the relative weakness of the Mongols in the east following the death of Qubilai would obviously change a lot of things. The direction for Korea and Jurchen could be many different things, but after reading posts by dsk and Culise(very old ones), I was thinking Korea could play quite a large role here.

Perhaps we could assume that one of the Korean factions Culise was talking about in this thread http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178941 does indeed manage to hold off a Mongol onslaught that only becomes weaker as the Mongols descend to Ariq Boke. This unified Korea, having lost Manchuria to the Mongols, could ally with the Jurchen against the Mongols, defeating the Toluids and driving them back to where we currently have them. Korea and Jurchen would then be in a somewhat master/vassal state, with Korean administration backed by Jurchen tribes military power. Where could we go from there?

Jurchen: Could make the choice to integrate with Korea early on, or attempt to recreate a Jin Empire. If they choose to integrate with Korea, this creates a large Korean empire. If they fight as the Jin Empire, they can attempt to subdue Korea or even attempt to conquer China.

Korea: Early on they will get the choice to attempt to integrate the Jurchen into a large Korean Empire, which will lead to annexation of the Jurchen and possible expansion into the Amur Basin or even Siberia, in revenge against the Mongols; OR they could consolidate their kingdom, attempt to dominate Japan pehaps? Why do they control half of Japan at startup by the way?

The combined Korean/Jurchen Empire would be a good player in the region, and we could detail events reconciling the particularly innovative Korean culture with the nomadic Jurchen culture.

As for Japan, I'm stumped. Does anybody have any ideas?

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Hmm I wonder how the Sengoku Jidai would turn out with Korea owning southern Japan, would there even be a sengoku jidai?

 

[Shogun 144]

Why does Korea even have land in Japan anyway? What kind of historical basis could you POSSIBLY have for something like that?

That aside with Korea in control of southern Japan the whole shape of Japan would be changed. All of the energy of Japanese Japan would be focused into one single goal -- Kicking out the invaders.

If the POD comes when I think it does, that is Khubilai dies early and the Mongol Empire collaspes, then the Hojo Regency would be in control when southern Japan was lost. In such a case the Hojo would lose power in a swift and bloody uprising. The Hojo would be wiped out for allowing foreigners to violate Japan's shores. But were would the Japanese turn to leadership after this?

I believe that they would turn towards the Tenno, the 'Divine' Emperor. With the failure of the Hojo the people would go to the Tenno, and we would see a return to direct Imperial Rule. This can be both a blessing and a curse, if the Tenno is lackluster such a reign would harm Imperial prestige, while if the Tenno was dynamic then such a reign would be glorious.

One thing we must consider though is what would happen to the Bushi. I would imagine that they would have to undergo a transformation. If anything the Samurai would probably become even more militaristic then ever before. Honing their skills by raiding Korean territory for example. They would also be even more ambitious. After the Hojo the commoners would blame the Samurai for the loss of southern Japan. A return to direct Imperial Rule would make them eager to regain power. Probably by making sure that they, not the Tenno's armies, kick the Koreans out. But would occur next? A new Shogunate? Or would the Tenno not allow that?

Of course this all moot if the Koreans can not be dislodged or they gain more ground. I would have think more about that possiblity.

Well there is my ideas now, maybe I will come back later with more. Thank you for your time.

 

[Culise]

The biggest concern I had then with making the departure point in the Korean Three Kingdoms era is that it would puts POD almost 1000 years before game start - Silla unified the peninsula in around 668 CE, and a lot can happen between that and the Mongol invasion of the 13th century. Actually, it isn't necessary for one of the other kingdoms to win for the situation you suggested to come true. Ariq Boke ascended to lead the Khanate in 1259, right? Well, the final subjugation of Goryeo to the Mongols came only with four invasions in 1253-1258 (the sixth such campaign), and the Sambyeolcho Rebellion against Goryeo and Mongol influence came in 1270. Arguably, all you need to do to kick the Mongols out of Korea is delay resistance by one more year - when Mongke dies and Ariq Boke starts fighting with Kublai Khan over the succession, especially if it takes a lot out of the Mongol war effort, it'll take a fair amount of the wind out of sails of those in court arguing for peace. It's not even that difficult - just delay the assassination of Choi Ui, the last leader of the military dictatorship that effectively controlled the Goryeo dynasty and kept pressing for continuing the war (you could also prevent it altogether, but frankly, the guy was a lazy...curse word anyways - give Goryeo a few military victories and a good operational tempo before his "untimely demise," and we don't need him anymore ).

Definitely would be interesting to see unity between the Aisin Goro and the Goryeo, and definitely would be interesting to see a united Korea, especially early, leading expeditions during those extra two centuries to subjugate the pirates of the Japanese isles that infest the East Sea and straits as Japanese power begins to collapse and recede. The above also gives us a POD closer to the European standard, around 1270, and matching the rest of eastern Asia. The interesting thing is that Korea always had a superior navy to any of their peers during the Goryeo and Joseon dynasties right up until modernization and Meiji in Japan; it just never had the support of the land-centric court, so aside from a handful of innovaters with the wealth and will to make things happen (like Yi Sun-shin), it always came in second place. They even had ship-mounted cannons by the 1300's, and were seaworthy enough that they could have pressed the invasion of Japan even with the kamikaze if the Chinese/Mongol navy carrying the bulk of the forces hadn't been devastated, and if the Koreans and Chinese hadn't been unhappy with their recent subjugation.

 

[Rhodz]

That sounds fine, Culise. What do you think of a Korea that defied the Mongols like you said, and attempts to subjugate Manchuria again? Right now I want to work out how that's going to go, before I worry about Japan.

As for half of Japan being in Korean hands, I honestl don't know why that is there at the moment, perhaps Japan could be in a civil war between a powerul Korean-backed warlord in the south seeking to unify Japan and the Emperor in the north?

Shogun, would you mind fleshing out some ideas for Japan there?

 

[Incompetent]

That sounds fine, Culise. What do you think of a Korea that defied the Mongols like you said, and attempts to subjugate Manchuria again? Right now I want to work out how that's going to go, before I worry about Japan.

As for half of Japan being in Korean hands, I honestl don't know why that is there at the moment, perhaps Japan could be in a civil war between a powerul Korean-backed warlord in the south seeking to unify Japan and the Emperor in the north?

Shogun, would you mind fleshing out some ideas for Japan there?

At some point I had the idea that Japan's feudal period could be even worse than historically, leaving Japan a mess of warring clans that are unable to work together long enough to keep out Korean influence (which only comes after this disintegration). Japan's warlords could even be religiously divided (between pure Buddhism, traditional Shintoism and 'imperial Shinto', and the Ainu would be independent in the north and retain their own beliefs). I also thought having Korea trying to take over Japan would be an amusing role-reversal. But I never really fleshed it out.

 

[MattyG]

The ideas about what to do with Asia have been kicking aroundsince before Interregnum got off the ground. Among the many ideas, I can recall three that have been brought up again and again:

1. Divide China, but have events that can see it reform.

2. Have someone from China explore/colonize the Americas, probably California.

3. Make Korea more of a power.


So, we followed up on these ideas in the basic rejig of Asia done a few months ago. I don't really see why Korea could not have subdued part of Japan. Of course the Japanese would revolt, probably repeatedly. But there will always be people also who cooperate with the conquerors, and most of the Japanese peasantry were used to doing exactly what they were told by whomever had the power to cut their heads off.

Surely, if the Koreans managed it well, elevating the status of the merchants and recognizing certain rights for the peasantry, they could make themselves very very welcome to all but the warrior classes.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I agree, if you take all the hundreds of invasions in european history (hundred years war, crusades....) it's not at all unfeasible for korea to invade japan, all you'd need is a pwerful ruler in korea, and a weak one in japan, let's not forget that this is alternative history

 

[Shogun 144]

Rhodz if you don't mind here is my proposed background for Japan. You may choose to take it or go with Incompetant's original idea. I don't mind either way.

Okay so Goryeo survives the Mongol storm and begins the grow strong again. This revived Goryeo goes on to invade Japan in a attempt to finally put an end to the incessant raids of the Wako pirates, who nearly controlled the sea during this time.

Japan at this time is controlled by the Hojo, who act as regents (shikken) for the powerless Kamakura Bakufu. When the Goryeo invasion arrives it catches the Hojo completely off guard, and Kyushu is lost to the invaders before Kamakura has time to react. The Hojo regroup under the shikken but are defeated again and again, resulting in all of southern Japan being lost in time to Goryeo's advancing forces. Dissatisfaction with the Hojo rises to the point were they are overthrown by a revolt and wiped out at Kamakura.

The rebels then turn on the Bakufu itself. Without the Hojo to uphold it the Kamakura government falls into anarchy. Realizing that the Goryeo army would soon be upon Kyoto unless something happened and soon the Tenno steps in. He dissolves the old government and calls for the uniting of all Japanese to resist the invasion. When his father, the Daijo Hoo (cloistered emperor), entered into the Grand Shrine at Ise the people united and Goryeo is handed a series of defeats and pushed back to southern Japan. But they are unable to make further progress and neither is Goryeo, resulting in a stalemate. An unspoken ceasefire takes place as both sides dig in and stare at one another from across their undeclared border. No side takes any move to resume the war.

On the Japanese side of the line the an Imperial restoration occurs. The vital role played by the Tenno and his father in repelling the invasion results in the long looked for Imperial Restoration. The Tenno once more rules Japan directly, with out either being controlled by regents or samurai. But this is short lived. Tension in the Imperial clan between the children of cloistered emperors Go-Fukakusa and Kameyama result in the period of direct rule being very short. Succession disputes result in true power transferring into the hands of the samurai again, but no one clan is able to amass enough power to form another Bakufu. Not to mention that it seemed unlikely that the Tenno would give his permission for one to form. Or that the peasantry would let one stand for long. The reign of Go-Daigo changes all of this.

Go-Daigo Tenno is later known as the Great Reformer. Go-Daigo was one of those emperors whose heart was set on reform. With the support of those samurai clans who wish to see the feuding come to an end and the repulsion of the Goryeo from Japan, such as the Kusunoki, Nitta, and Ashikaga, all of whom are descended from the Minamoto (well actually the Kusunoki relation is disputed, but this is my Alt-history) Go-Daigo launches the ambitious Kemmu Reformation. Go-Daigo was a deep admirer of China and of the Chinese models of kingship, and wanted to remake the monarchy more fully on the Chinese model, regardless of China's great turmoil. The Ashikaga, even more ambitious then the Tenno, attempt to halt the Reformation and create a new Bakufu. But they are defeated by the newly created Imperial Army (principally led by their chief opponents, the Kusunoki). The Ashikaga flee across the border and find willing supporters in the court of Goryeo, who were already looking for a Japanese puppet to give them a facade of legitimacy in front of the incessant revolts of the peasants and the clans of the fiercely independent Kyushu. The Kemmu Reformation meanwhile results in the Tenno beginning more and more like a Chinese Kotei, which is exactly what Go-Daigo was aiming for. By the time the Great Reformer dies his new model government exists but on very shaky ground. The successors of Go-Daigo are unable to keep the new government afloat and Japan reverts to the Tenno System (with the other called the Kotei System), once more dominated by the samurai and court officials. But much of Go-Daigo's reforms stay permanent, such as the Imperial military. This results in friction between the traditional samurai clans and those who choose to integrate into the Imperial Army.

Very early on in the going the Empire of Goryeo realizes that invading Japan brings much more then they bargained for. The Court in Kaesong changed the objective to full conquest of Japan fairly early in the war, reasoning that the pirate threat would end if the entire island nation was conquered. If by that point the original reason for the invasion was even remembered at all. A series of defeats at the hands of the Japanese result in an uneasy peace between the occupied south and native north. But soon problems arise in the form of near constant peasant rebellions and the more serious uprisings in Kyushu. The clans of Kyushu had always been rebellious and independent, which was why the Hojo had to appoint a special deputy on the island just to watch them. Led by the Shimazu of Satsuma the southern clans rise in revolt again and again. The timely arrival in exile of the Ashikaga to Goryeo itself gives the Supreme King a much needed public face in Japan. With Goryeo support the Ashikaga brings an uneasy peace to southern Japan. The Ashikaga form a regency with the blessing of Kaesong, but for all intents and purposes Goryeo rules in southern Japan. But the Ashikaga are not content with the situation.

In 1419 Japan lies once more in turmoil. In the northern end of the country Ogura Tenno rules in Kyoto under the Tenno System, but not all members of the Imperial clan are happy with the rule of Ogura. A rebellion to force the Tenno's early retirement may be in the works. In southern Japan friction between the Ashikaga shikken and Goryeo threaten to break out into the worst rebellion since the last Shimazu Uprising in the 1370s. And to top all of this tensions are running high in both nations, and a resumption of the war between them may soon occur.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

One path for korea is to conquer the rest of japan (any enterprising player should be able to do this so the outcome has to be planned for) if so they could use the ashikaga as puppets for an again sidelined tenno, of course while this may give stability in the short term in could be good for revolts later, on the other hand korea could forgo the use of puppets and attempt to militarily dominate, and then culturally dominate later (similiar in fact to how the japanese attempted to dominate korea in the the 1930s and 40s) giving more unrest but leading to a more stable rule later

 

[Shogun 144]

Actually here are some more ideas from me. Hope you like it.

First off let's talk about the peasantry. To be frank the image of a Japanese commoner cowering before the samurai, who could cut off his head at any moment for whatever reason, is a myth. A common misconception brought on by movies and the Tokugawa Bakufu. The image only became partly true under the Tokugawa, and that was only because of the Bakufu's great social reforms. During the Edo Period Japan was turned into a near caste society, with rules beyond numbering to make sure that everyone stayed in their class, or didn't advance too far.

To continue: In relation to their fellow peasants in other lands the peasantry of Feudal Japan had a great deal of power, and could actually cause provincial revolutions that brought on a restructuring of society, at least for that province. But I'll get there later. What I propose is that somehow this mod should simulate three different kinds of peasant rebellions, all at differing points in the game. This is a simplification, but I believe what I am trying to say is pretty much historically sound. Any who:

The first type of rebellion should be a simple uprising, nothing to big, but enough to get the attention of the authorities. Such rebellions could be launched for any number of things. To give example during the RL Ashikaga Bakufu peasant rebellions occurred most often in order to call for the lowering of taxes and the suspension of all debt. These rebellions were put down often, but the provincial was usually forced to make the desired changes anyway, to prevent more uprisings.

The second type is Ikki uprisings. An Ikki is a league of peasants and minor local samurai who have banded together for a common cause, usually a full scale rebellion or something to that effect. Ikki were far more dangerous then normal peasants, because they could and did defeat samurai armies on a regular basis. What made these Ikki uprisings especially nasty was that they transformed into revolutions. In Japanese terminology they sought gekokujo (those below overthrow those above). In other words to overthrow the old order and replace it with a new one. Yamashiro Province for example was ruled by Ikki for the entire Sengoku proper.

The third category would be Ikko-Ikki. If you thought the Ikki was bad you ain't seen nothing yet. Ikko-Ikki were like their cousins leagues of peasants and minor local samurai, with the addition of Buddhist sohei (warrior monks). But what made the Ikko different was that were united by their fanatical Buddhist faith. This faith made them into the dread soldiers that everyone from the lowliest peasant to the highest court official cowered in fear of. The Ikko-Ikki armies were so well disciplined and in time, equipped, that they could easily defeat samurai armies and take over several provinces without breaking a sweat. It was not until the RL days of Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi when they were finally destroyed.

I wish to repeat that these differing rebellions, with the exception of the regular rebellions, be kept confined to a certain period or only be triggered only certain conditions. In other words no Ikko-Ikki in the early game please.

Second off some general ideas for Imperial Japan (as I am calling it). I believing that when a new Tenno rises to power that he should get a choice to either rule according the Tenno System or the Kotei System. Ruling according to the Tenno System would be ruling in the traditional manner, and getting into political battles with the samurai and court nobility. You would also have minimal control. Choosing the Kotei System means ruling in the Chinese manner as Go-Daigo did. The Kotei System has its advantages, increased Imperial authority and control. But would be weighed by the cost of dissent. The samurai and court nobility isn't going to like being the sidelined ones for a change. Also Imperial Japan should get events dealing with the problem of Cloistered Rule. Often times a Tenno would decide to retire and become cloistered rather then stay Tenno until death. Even after the establishment of samurai rule the cloistered emperors would continue to be a pain in the backside. It would be fun to model that in game.

An other idea would be on the samurai. There would be a lot of fighting between, much like in real life, but a much reduced scale with the added option of some clans choosing to raid Goryeo held lands. In my mind a lot of conflict would occur between those clans that choose to join the new Imperial Army and those who did not, with both sides holding the other in contempt. Actually the Imperial Army could be the center of a lot of events, especially as its fortunes depend on whether the emperor rules like Tenno or a Kotei.

Third off is southern Japan. I really don’t know a whole lot about Goryeo to be truthful or how they would handle the occupation and what not. Some general ideas inspired by Don_Quigleone is Goryeo should get an event early on giving them a choice to either use the Ashikaga as puppets to maintain the fragile peace in southern Japan or attempt to rule directly again. Choosing to rule directly results in the revolt of the Ashikaga, backed by an alliance of Kyushu clans led by a resurgent Shimazu. Goryeo has a long road here and should be in danger of losing their Japanese holdings for some time, both to the peasantry and the samurai clans.

If Goryeo chooses to stick with the Ashikaga then they have to deal the political machinations of their puppets. The Ashikaga were always a bunch of ambitious leaders, with varying amounts of real skill, but great ambition. That ambition should play a big part and the Goryeo player should be kept on his or her toes around the Ashikaga. Ultimately I think there should some sort of peaceful resolution for this path too, rather then having to destroy them (though that should remain an option).

 

[MattyG]

I really, really, have shown myself tomn have little comprehension or knowledge of Asian history.

I like everything that I am reading here.

Please, people, don't let the fire go out. We have been waiting a long time for people with knowledge of the region to come along and start to model the alternative history for the region. I will continue to offer to code events and make changes to the region as requested, but the history of it all is beyond me.

That said, I still want to see the original idea that Asia be overall stronger than in vanilla, a greater challenge to Europeans and with two or three colonizers among them.

 

[Rhodz]

Thanks for the contributions guys.

Shogun: I really like the history you've written there. That seems like it could be just what we need. Might I suggest that at the startup the Japanese provinces controlled by Korea be instead under the control of the Ashikaga shikki, vassals to Korea. We could have a bunch of events on how Korea deals with the Ashikaga, as well as many events for the Ashikaga themselves.

Korea: events every few years, "Ashikaga demands", first could be money, next could be land, then events like "the Ashikaga have proclaimed themselves Emperor in Nippon"(without actually breaking vassalisation). Giving into these demands finally results in the Ashikaga storming the few Korean bases on Nippon and attempting to unite Nippon themselves. Refusing them leads to a war of independence, which if Korea loses, the Ashikaga do the same as if their demands were given, and if Korea conquers all the provinces, Ashikaga are annexed and the Koreans have to deal with the "Kyushu revolts!" series of events over many decades, AND are forced to conquer all of Japan within a certain timeframe or else they'll never get Japanese culture.

Ashikaga: They get events to demand things from the Koreans, the A choice being to make the demands rather than submit. If they submit in every event(let's say 5 events?) they'll be annexed by the Koreans. If they continue to make demands and Korea gives in as the A choice, it eventually leads to the war of independence that I mentioned earlier. The Ashikaga also get events for a loooong time, the aforementioned "Kyushu revolts!" sequence. The only way they can get rid of this is to conquer all of Japan and to not be vassals of Korea.

So basically if we let all the A choices play out, Korea slowly gives into the demands of the Ashikaga, and loses control over Japan, and the Ashikaga fight to unite Japan. If Korea chooses to hold tight onto the Ashikaga, they get a hard fight on their hands, revolts and a war to conquer japan.

If the A choice is that korea would normally lose Japan, then I'd like to have them take over Manchuria(unless they really screw it up). Like I said, I'd like Jurchen to be vassals of Korea at startup as a relationship wherein the Koreans assisted the Jurchen in their independence from the Mongols, and the Jurchen slowly get integrated into the Korean Empire.

Basically, the way I see it, a strong player could unify Manchuria, Korea and Japan if they do it just right. But I don't intend to make it easy(at least not the japan bit). Even if we could code some events so that if Korea unifies with Jurchen and then attempts to invade Japan, the Jurchen revolt under the heavy tax burden such a war places on them, or something.

Like I say at the end of all my posts, what do you think? any ideas?

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Firstly Ashikaga should declare themselves shogun, not emperor (I know a niggling point...) I think all these ideas are good, but we shouldn't run away with ourselves, we should make sure most of the event sequence is tied up by 1450, and consequences by 1500, maybe 1550. As a player spending more than 10 years keeping down revolts is NOT fun. So we shouldn't go too far with rebelions(I'm thinking of vietnam in agceep)

Besides that an interesting possibility is that the Ikko Ikki take over a beleaguered japan, putting in place radical buddhist republic/theocracy I'm not sure how this would play out with other events but it could see japan interceding on other buddhist nation's behalf (however buddhism isn't usually as militant as the ikko ikki). Another less plausible possibility is an ikki taking over and declaring japan (or what's left of it) a republic. And finally what about ezo?

 

[Rhodz]

I'm allowing you guys to decide what's happening with Nippon, I'm just going to deal with Korea, Jurchen and the Ashikaga protectorate for the time being.

I've been thinking about how Korea would be able to conquer part of Japan. First off, we're saying that the Koreans were able to stave off the Mongols just long enough for Qubilai to die and thus the Korean peninsular was never conquered. Thus the Goreyo dynasty wouldn't have been as shaky as it was when it was overthrown in 1392. Instead, it remains strong and this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taejo_of_Joseon who actually overthrew the dynasty, instead cannot, as the dynasty is much stronger in Interregnum. Thus he is able to concentrate on his campaigns against the Japanese pirates, even to the point of conquering part of Japan and becoming a hero.

Thoughts?

 

[MattyG]

Firstly Ashikaga should declare themselves shogun, not emperor (I know a niggling point...) I think all these ideas are good, but we shouldn't run away with ourselves, we should make sure most of the event sequence is tied up by 1450, and consequences by 1500, maybe 1550. As a player spending more than 10 years keeping down revolts is NOT fun. So we shouldn't go too far with rebelions(I'm thinking of vietnam in agceep)

Besides that an interesting possibility is that the Ikko Ikki take over a beleaguered japan, putting in place radical buddhist republic/theocracy I'm not sure how this would play out with other events but it could see japan interceding on other buddhist nation's behalf (however buddhism isn't usually as militant as the ikko ikki). Another less plausible possibility is an ikki taking over and declaring japan (or what's left of it) a republic. And finally what about ezo?

Not only do we need to consider what happens if the Ikko Ikki 'win', I think it is essential also from the standpoint of quality gameplay. People like options, they like to explore storylines. Good event files contain branches for people to pursue. Think of it as a history version of 'choose your own adventure'. A theocracy/republic would be a radical change for any nation at this point in time, the concept that you don't need to have a king/emperor/single defined leader. There would need to be a generations-worth of resistence and rebellion before the young become the adults under the new regime and grow up assuming it can work.

What would be the benefits of this? Perhaps in EU2 terms there are few direct benefits? Having a Lollard republic would hold one back in EU2, all that pacifism really doesn't help in acheiving a WC. :rofl:

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Considering the Ikko ikki were a popular movement there shouldn't be too much trouble with the people themselves, mostly with the old established order of samurai and emperors which they would have "disposed" of by that point. It would be an interesting enough development from a gameplay perspective as the events would give you something different to do from the norm (like mallucca in indonesia, or spreading their form of militant buddhism in china, plus lot's of nice interactions with europe!). And with regard to not having a king/emperor/whatever they could instead align themselves behind some pope like figure, which would make hime emperor in all but name really

 

[Shogun 144]

Just to chip in again but the Ikko-Ikki would have never deposed the Tenno in any way.

Their goal was the destruction of the old order, in the Japanese mind the Tenno is in a order higher then can be reached. There was only one incident in Japanese history were some one actually tried to despose the Tenno, and that was Taira no Masakado in the 900s.

Even Ashikaga Takauji and Yoshimitsu, the two men closest to doing so after Masakado never tried to actually do away with the Tenno. Takauji allied himself with the Jimyoin-to branch of the Imperial clan, using them as puppets to further his own cause. But he never crossed the line into outright aspirations to the throne. Neither did Yoshimitsu, though he came closer still to crossing the line. But once again Yoshimitsu restrained himself.

I understand that what used for cases are all samurai, but if the samurai held the Tenno in such high regard then think about how much more the peasantry would have. Even the most fanatical Buddhists still revered the Tenno above all else. Nothing would have changed that.

What the Ikko-Ikki would have done if they conquered Japan would have been sweeping reform, doing away with the old nobility and the samurai and what not. They would then go on to intimidate the Imperial Court into letting them form thier own new style of government, their theocracy, making the Ikko-Ikki the newest puppest masters of Kyoto. But the Tenno would still be left alone. You have to remember: No matter how much abuse was heaped on the Imperial clan, they always remained in power.

Its a curious facet of Japanese culture, but you have to remember it.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Good point there, it is true that throughout Japan's often unstable history the emperor has always remained intact.

So, as I see it, what we have then is several possibilities if japan remains independent

1. The emperor takes control in the chinese fashion,
2. The emperor tries to take control but the japanese system on the whole prevails
3. Another shogun (like ashikaga) takes control
4. The Ikko ikki take control
5. An ikki manages to take control
6. The previous bakufu manage to hold complete control

If japan is conquered then here are the possibilities that I can see

1. They rule through a puppet(ashikaga, other groups?), with possibilities for later rebellion of puppets
2. They use the emperor as a puppet
3. Kinda related to the last one, they marry the korean dynasty and japanese dynasty together, creating a union
4. Crush all japanese identity and culturally assimilate
5. Become the new shoguns (unlikely) and integrate korea into japan

So what you guys think? Can't really think of much more to add, and it probably needs trimming down with some being really outlandish (option 5 for korea....)

 

[Shogun 144]

I like it, seems very nice and plausible, except for Goryeo's number five, but you know that. hehe

I would like to adjust number six for Imperial Japan to "One clan emerges supreme and forms a new Bakufu". That one would be interesting, but how would it be simulated?

EDIT: I also wanted to say that I like number 3 for Goryeo, if only as poetic justice. IRL the Imperial clan did force marriages upon the Imperial Family of Korea and on the remnants of the Qing Imperial Family. Goryeo forcing marraiges on the Imperial clan would be a nice change.