An excellent look at Iran's economy and military!
How/Where do you find all these older photographs?
How/Where do you find all these older photographs?
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Great to have you, and I hope you'll find it enjoyableSo let me try and redress that by getting in on the ground with this one.
Looks excellent so far! Will be fascinated to see where you are able to take Iran over the coming years.
I wish I could have found a picture of it, but I only found the written description.That's something I'd have to see in person - a railway bridge in a tunnel. Must be quite a sight!
Why did they build this bridge out of stone instead of steel? Stubbornness? Showing off? Or was steel not available for some odd reason?
I suspect El Pip is right on this one. They did not have a steelworks at this point, but we shall explore that further if I can find enough information to make an interesting post about it. I also wonder if some of the issue was skilled labor as well. I'd imagine plenty of locals had laid bricks before, but I doubt many Iranians had built anything out of steel!I believe there was no actual steelworks in Iran at this point, they wouldn't get one till 1970s despite trying for decades. This was due to the traditional reasons- just too small a market and no good local material sources, so the economics were awful.
In this case the extra cost of imported steel, plus the challenges of transporting said steel inland on rough roads, probably made the stone bridge make more sense that it would elsewhere. I believe a similar issue affected the tracks, they were built with fairly lightweight track which used less steel (and was cheap), but limited the size and load of trains that could use it.
Perhaps channeling my China AAR a bit, but it really is interesting how similar their experiences of the 1800s were. Iran's was perhaps a bit less traumatic, but it certainly wasn't fun!Now this language seems familiar...
I'm glad you called that out, it really does help to make the game much more balanced rather than an Axis stomp like vanilla often is.This is one of the nice but less-trumpeted changes in HPP, nations have access to 100% of their IC from the game start, or closer to it, usually instead of the cripping of democracies that happens in vanilla.
I agree that's the right move to make, although MOT could be a bit of a stretch!Seems like the best plan is to add support elements to the INF division and then build traditional INF divisions to expand the army. The CAV divisions are unlikely to be much use for anything other than bare flanking attacks, but could be upgraded to MOT and reinforced with LARM if you can build enough IC and get some help from Germany.
Otherwise the Education techs are the payoff option here.
I do plan to invest heavily in the Education techs to grow my research ability. Unfortunately, I'm far enough ahead where I don't think I can switch back to the IC buildup. I'd have to research the technology to unlock it, then build 1-2 IC at a time, so I'd maybe hit 13-14 IC. That is a significant increase, but I was also concerned about growing my military to cover my ridiculously long borders. Maybe I'll have to go back and try the IC strategy some other time.I would recommend building some IC in any case if you have the tech to build it, you have 5-6 years until Operation Countenance which is enough time for a run of IC to pay for itself, and while I'd be leery about introducing player foresight into the game it's easily justifiable as Reza Shah doesn't know that he will be invaded in 1941.
It really is a huge improvement in my opinion, so props to TZoli for all that work!TZoli did a whole revamp of the world map and SSmith did some checking for balance. It is still a bit of a WIP in some ways but I love the new map, mainly for the infrastructure improvements that represent railways much better than the previous map did.
And so we our setup and Iran is well on the path to joining the Evil Axis. Something are clearly just fated to be!![]()
That is a good caveat, I perhaps oversimplified a bit, although I will say British policy on Iran was very confused beyond needing to protect India.Maybe. If it was built by a British firm and didn't connect to any north running lines. The concern was always that such a line would be more useful to some looking to invade India (like the Russians) than for moving Indian reinforcements to Mesopotamia. Better to move troops by ship than give an enemy a direct rail route.
I will say enrollment numbers went up dramatically, so they must have trained a decent number of teachers. Although it is a very good point they might not have been well qualified or up to western standards overall. Interestingly though, being a teacher was one of the more popular jobs for the daughters of generals and bureaucrats which was quite the change from tradition in Iran.He built a lot of schools, but there remain questions over if there were any actual trained staff to operate them. It is often easier to build a school than train a competent teaching staff to use it. But then that too might be a bit harsh.
Glad you enjoyed it! The real history is quite impressive, and I've enjoyed learning more about their struggles to modernize. It feels a bit like a Vic 2 AAR, but with tanks and HOI3 combat!Fascinating look at Iran. Some real-life good decisioning making with resources at hand. Thank you
He certainly was the man Iran needed at the time, in my opinion, but I'll have to address his flaws at some point. It's just a matter of figuring out where to fit them in.Reza Shah seems to be a very capable ruler... and Iran certainly needs that to negotiate the next few years safely.
I've been quite impressed by how well Iran has been set up in game, especially for a country that wasn't directly involved in WWII.Good to see we managed to get that about right.![]()
This certainly needs to be improved, doesn't it?
That is a very good assessment of the military. The other problem with the air force is I only have a base in Tehran which is too far from anything useful. If my bombers are in range, I've probably lost!Anything is better than nothing, but building an air force is an expensive undertaking and I suspect it's one Iran just won't be able to afford.
I'm glad you agree on that, and I'm very happy I get to help make some small improvements to HPP once again. I've also added a handful of leaders to the list that Paradox overlooked for some strange reason. I'd be more than happy to share that with you at some point.That's defintitely a good move. Education is one of the best ways for a country in Iran's position to expand leadership. This is the first note I've made - having one education tech already researched doesn't seem at all unreasonable.
I think that will work as well, although it will take a while to get close enough in alignment and relations.This seems a very reasonable and logical course of action under the circumstances. Iran's objective, clearly, is to break free of British and Soviet influence and needs the support of another major power to do so. Also, despite the somewhat disfunctional diplomacy AI, I think there's a very good chance you'll manage to license equipment from Germany.
Maybe I was playing on an older version of 3.3.3(e) because I swear 3.4.0 switched to a purely IC based calculation of international status. I swear my China game had requirements on brigades, ships, and planes as well.The infrastructure projects would be the result of @TZoli's work. I'm not sure if/when/why Iran dropped a status level but 3.4.0 doesn't appear to be any different from the 3.3.3(e) patch. Logically, the only thing that would have caused that to happen is the loss of some IC, but as far as I know Iran's total IC hasn't been changed, and it wasn't in 3.4.0, as I've just checked. You do have more manpower in this version, though.
That is a good point. As I mentioned to nuclearslurpee, I've played far enough ahead where I'm not sure I can do industrial, but I'm wondering if that would have been the right move. I guess we'll see how I do without.Without modding it in as you have, you would probably have been able to get to 'developed nation' with a couple of new factories and one or two industrial production techs. I think industrial research is probably the next priority I would have gone for, straight after eduction of course.
A mixture of places honestly. Wikipedia has a surprisingly decent amount of pictures once I started looking up specific people or events, while Google image searches have also been helpful. I also stumbled on a couple of Iranian monarchist websites which have a serious love affair with the Pahlavis, but they have a ton of pictures available! Finally, I found an album from the early '50s that could almost pass as '30s/'40s except the quality is higher.How/Where do you find all these older photographs?
Thanks for checking it out, and I hope you continue to enjoy it!How interesting.
This is a general point which a lot of players don't readily realize. Basically, if you invest in building a new unit of IC, you spend X amount of your existing IC for Y days. Once it is finished, you gain +1 IC which will pay for itself in X*Y days.I do plan to invest heavily in the Education techs to grow my research ability. Unfortunately, I'm far enough ahead where I don't think I can switch back to the IC buildup. I'd have to research the technology to unlock it, then build 1-2 IC at a time, so I'd maybe hit 13-14 IC. That is a significant increase, but I was also concerned about growing my military to cover my ridiculously long borders. Maybe I'll have to go back and try the IC strategy some other time.
Nah. Reza Shah was flirting with the Nazis and either shared their unpleasant views or didn't do anything to stop those in his country who did. Gratefully accepting the gift of the "German Scientific Library" (it was 'racial science' and exactly as horrific as you would expect) is the more clear cut example of this.Real life was also not one of Britain's most admirable moments, and I think it's safe to say Iran was wrongly invaded. I'd expect it from the Soviets, but the British were a bit disappointing.
I've seen some mixed things on Reza Shah and Jews. As you mention, he tolerated a lot of nastiness and played nice with the Nazis' racial theories, but he was also one of the better Shahs in relations to the Jews. I'm not sure the validity of this, but he supposedly argued that the Nuremburg laws could not apply to Iranian Jews because they were Iranians/Aryans. That doesn't seem like the actions of someone that loathed the Jews. That doesn't mean he was perfect, he was still a product of his time and place, but I don't see him as especially nasty.Nah. Reza Shah was flirting with the Nazis and either shared their unpleasant views or didn't do anything to stop those in his country who did. Gratefully accepting the gift of the "German Scientific Library" (it was 'racial science' and exactly as horrific as you would expect) is the more clear cut example of this.
So his biggest failing was playing nice with Germany during WWII? Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland all did far worse than Iran in relation to Germany, and none of them ever got invaded.If Reza wanted a neutral Iran then he had to be properly neutral, not try to keep all the benefits of relations with Germany while repeatedly winding up t the Allies. It was global war for the ultimate stakes or to put it more memeily "It was the time of f*ck around, it was the time of find out." Reza Shah did the first,so the second happened to Iran.
That is such a low bar to clear I'm not sure it even qualifies as a bar.I've seen some mixed things on Reza Shah and Jews. As you mention, he tolerated a lot of nastiness and played nice with the Nazis' racial theories, but he was also one of the better Shahs in relations to the Jews.
I honestly don't know his personal views. But it is clear he more than happy to throw Jews under the bus to get better relations with Germany and it got very nasty by 1939/40, full on hate broadcasts and swastikas being daubbed on houses of anyone suspected of being Jewish.I'm not sure the validity of this, but he supposedly argued that the Nuremburg laws could not apply to Iranian Jews because they were Iranians/Aryans. That doesn't seem like the actions of someone that loathed the Jews. That doesn't mean he was perfect, he was still a product of his time and place, but I don't see him as especially nasty.
All those countries had the excuse that if they did not then they risked a German army marching into the country. And this was not even really an excuse, OKW had plans to invade all those countries should they ever not co-operate.So his biggest failing was playing nice with Germany during WWII? Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland all did far worse than Iran in relation to Germany, and none of them ever got invaded.
Neutral is stretching things a bit, the issue was very much the fear that Iran was not neutral. The Iranians were convinced the Germans were going to rapidly defeat the Soviets, which in fairness quite a few people were in the Summer of 1941, and admitted as such. Therefore Reza did not negotiate, as late as 30th June in conversation in London the Iranian ambassador refused any 'drastic measure' or indeed any action at all against the German presence or any consideration of transport rights (of the sort that neutral Sweden was allowing).I'm not arguing that using Iran as a land bridge to support the Soviets was wrong, it was absolutely the right military decision. However, the Allies still blatantly invaded a neutral nation because it was more convenient to them.
I am enjoying it myself and I'm certainly treating this as just a fun discussion about an area of history that I don't often discuss.I'm enjoying this discussion, so I hope this isn't coming off as overly argumentative.
It feels a bit like a Vic 2 AAR, but with tanks and HOI3 combat!
I've also added a handful of leaders to the list that Paradox overlooked for some strange reason. I'd be more than happy to share that with you at some point.
Maybe I was playing on an older version of 3.3.3(e) because I swear 3.4.0 switched to a purely IC based calculation of international status. I swear my China game had requirements on brigades, ships, and planes as well.
Considering how poor the Middle East is on this respect even now, I'd say it's actually not that low a bar.That is such a low bar to clear I'm not sure it even qualifies as a bar.![]()
I had not seen that part, and that's clearly indefensible and disgusting.it got very nasty by 1939/40, full on hate broadcasts and swastikas being daubbed on houses of anyone suspected of being Jewish.
I suspect you might be right on that, and that is certainly a major failing of his character.I suspect he was somewhat like Mussolini in that regard, no particularly strong views either way on Jews but when it was politically advantageous he didn't condem the extremists, ignored the persecutions and never give the victims a second thought.
It's not that hard to blame him on this score though. Germany was making great offers and was no threat at all to Iran while Russia and Britain had a long history of controlling their country.Or more seriously he was more obsessed with the great deals a desperate Germany was offering than living up to the actual deals he had with the countries right on his border.
I don't see how having sympathies for Germany takes away Iranian neutrality. Are you arguing it's OK to invade a country if they are inclined towards your enemy? As far as I can tell, they never really did anything to support Germany in WWII beyond humoring some Axis propaganda and giving moral support. It's not like they actually sabotaged Abadan, fought the Soviets, or anything else like that.Neutral is stretching things a bit, the issue was very much the fear that Iran was not neutral.
He reduced trade with the Germans to try and increase his neutrality months before the invasion. In the opening of the invasion, he offered to expel all the Germans and Italians if the Allies would stop, which they ignored, indicating that they didn't actually care about the Germans in Iran. It was just a convenient excuse to invade and carry out their larger strategic plan.Therefore Reza did not negotiate, as late as 30th June in conversation in London the Iranian ambassador refused any 'drastic measure' or indeed any action at all against the German presence or any consideration of transport rights (of the sort that neutral Sweden was allowing).
I'm glad of that, I'm also enjoying this.I am enjoying it myself and I'm certainly treating this as just a fun discussion about an area of history that I don't often discuss.
That is definitely a lot of projection from the British, but I understand it. My point isn't that the British made the wrong strategic decision, but they violated an independent nation's neutrality for their own personal gain.But at the time no-one knew that. Britain was just coming of putting down the 1941 Iraqi coup and so were naturally suspicious about even a small number of Germans in key positions. Indeed the Indian government's main argument was not so much against Raza's German leanings but his regime's instability - the endemic corruption and poverty he was inflicting on the nation was, in their view, going to cause an uprising and could lead to a German-aligned coup attempt in Iran. I think they were projecting a bit from Iraq, but I can absolutely understand why they would.
One interesting thing though is that they needed to replace Reza but allowed his son to take over. I suspect if Reza was so incredibly unpopular they would have ended the dynasty entirely. I will talk about Reza's land greed at some point in this AAR.So London insisted that Raza had to abdicate after the invasion, so it was clear that all of his land seizures, corruption and general impoverishing of the country were indeed down to him and the 'German faction' and that London hadn't been behind it all.
Another point to consider is that war was never declared, the Allies just invaded country. What could Iran have done to avoid an invasion? It seems like all they could have done was expel the foreigners and allow the Allies to ship material through their borders. How is it just to force a country to give up their sovereignty and neutrality, and invade them if they refuse? The Allies were supposed to be better than that, and I think that's why it's so disappointing the British came up with the plan.Overall the invasion seems entirely justified given the circumstances and the situation inside Iran, even if it may not have lived up to the highest standards or moral justification. To blame it all on two super powers deciding to invade because it was convenient removes a lot of agency from Iran and it's leadership. It ignores the actions and choices of Raza Shah which meant that in the crucial weeks of mid-1941 no-one in London or Moscow trusted him, indeed they actively distrusted him. It also glosses over the fact that a majority of his own people refused to fight for him and indeed cheered when he abdicated, relieved that he was finally gone.
Persia is a really fun game in Vic 2, although I had a similar experience where I just couldn't keep up with major countries by the late game.Maybe that's auspicious? Speaking of Victoria 2, I did manage to turn Persia into a great power for about two decades around the turn of the century. Couldn't quite hold on to it, though!
Honestly, I haven't gotten much done on the Chinese OOB yet, but I'll get it to you whenever I have a chance.That would certainly be very welcome! Oh, and have you still got that of Chinese changes you were working on?
Probably not, but I'm glad you mentioned this.Yes, you still get a bit of extra leadership as you build up the branches of your armed forces. Doubtful whether that's ever going help Iran, though...
Given the wider context of a global war and what had happened in the region, I think that specific invasion was justifiable though I admit it was a nasty business. I can obviously see a lot of circumstances where it wouldn't be OK, so I wouldn't try and argue a universal rule from this.I don't see how having sympathies for Germany takes away Iranian neutrality. Are you arguing it's OK to invade a country if they are inclined towards your enemy?
The counter-argument of course is that they never got a chance to do so, because of the invasion. I'd also suggest humouring the propaganda and giving moral support contributed to people thinking he was a potential German puppet and to the distrust of him and his regime. What Reza did mattered, he may not have had the raw military or economic power of the UK and USSR, but he could still have influence and shape events. It's just that he mostly shaped them towards making the invasion more likely.As far as I can tell, they never really did anything to support Germany in WWII beyond humoring some Axis propaganda and giving moral support. It's not like they actually sabotaged Abadan, fought the Soviets, or anything else like that.
No. Trade reduced because the British were blocking it by sea and because the Soviets were no longer willing to ship Iranian cargoes to Germany, for obvious reasons. There were even chats about what to do with the Iranian shipments that were still in transit inside Russia. Reza does not get any credit for this.He reduced trade with the Germans to try and increase his neutrality months before the invasion.
Because by that point no-one trusted him and the decision had been made more reliable leadership was needed. Had he been more trustworthy, if people believed he would stick to his deals and actually be neutral, then I don't think the invasion happens. Hell had he made that offer a couple of weeks earlier he might have saved himself.In the opening of the invasion, he offered to expel all the Germans and Italians if the Allies would stop, which they ignored, indicating that they didn't actually care about the Germans in Iran.
The Soviets committed three armies to this, forces they really needed on the Eastern Front. At this point Kiev and Odessa have been pocketed and the Germans are not quite at the gates of Leningrad but they are very close. I think this speaks to the deep concerns they had about Iran's reliability and potential to go German. The most convenient option was in fact "Not invade at all", that they felt they had to divert scare troops and take the risk on an invasion speaks volumes to me.It was just a convenient excuse to invade and carry out their larger strategic plan.
Personal gain is an odd way of putting it. The main beneficiary was the Soviets, who could use the Persian Road to get supplies in and out, and of course the wider world who benefited from the Nazis not winning the war. When you remember those are the stakes, it's hard to get too upset about a corrupt Nazi sympathiser being forced of a throne he had himself seized by force.That is definitely a lot of projection from the British, but I understand it. My point isn't that the British made the wrong strategic decision, but they violated an independent nation's neutrality for their own personal gain.
I'm just going on the historic reports from the various people present, Reza was widely seen as unpopular, there were great crowds cheering his son and absolutely no protest or complaint about Reza going into exile.One interesting thing though is that they needed to replace Reza but allowed his son to take over. I suspect if Reza was so incredibly unpopular they would have ended the dynasty entirely. I will talk about Reza's land greed at some point in this AAR.
As mentioned, not be seen as giving the Germans 'moral support', stick to deals not tear them up when they are no longer convenient, that sort of thing.Another point to consider is that war was never declared, the Allies just invaded country. What could Iran have done to avoid an invasion? It seems like all they could have done was expel the foreigners and allow the Allies to ship material through their borders.
It serves the Greater Good, which is a nasty argument I know but war is a nasty business. Plus I fundamentally don't agree Reza Shah was neutral.How is it just to force a country to give up their sovereignty and neutrality, and invade them if they refuse?
This was an Anglo-Soviet plan and if you keep looking at just Britain then it's always going to be a partial story.The Allies were supposed to be better than that, and I think that's why it's so disappointing the British came up with the plan.
Plus everyone hated Reza Shah and were delighted when he was exiled.Honestly I don't blame the Iranians for refusing to fight. They were going up against two of the strongest armies in the world and had been overwhelmed in an undeclared war. Nobody was going to help them, and all resistance would have done is unleash incredible suffering on the nation.
Thanks for following along!a most exciting start!
While I too am enjoying following the discussion, I would candidly suggest moving it to either a PM thread or the Butterfly thread, both of which are significantly less likely to attract a moderator who finds the discussion "off-topic" as it becomes increasingly abstracted and away from the AAR at hand. In the latter case of course we can all enjoy the fruits of discussion and spam up the post count to boot, always a worthwhile endeavor.Thanks for the discussion, and I hope you don't mind shifting in a more philosophical direction.
Now that was just mean of me, to post an update right as you've caught up! Thanks for reading, and the stopwatch has started, although it is moving very slowlyLooking forward to the stopwatch being started!
Czechoslovakia trying to mediate between two other countries is kind of ironic. Were they even invited to the negotiationsEdvard Benes, foreign minister of Czechoslovakia, was chosen to mediate and work toward an agreement.