Kingdoms from the Scratch

[unmerged(21937)]

So, this will be handy first post. Generic info:

Game time: 0300 GMT sundays during daylight savings (0500 CET)
Players (position):
- Byakhiam (Germany)
- Patrucio (England)
- Solmyr (France)
- Sterkarm (Poland)
- Swierad (Italy)
Scenario: Kingdoms from the Scratch, modded scenario
Characters: Modded kings and wives, see modding

About modding:
First character you get in the game will be modded according to these rules, with the exception that visible base stats (MDIS) are capped at 9 and non-visible (HF) at 8. If you ruin your dynasty, you may continue game with another dynasty, but you will play with an existing character, so you only get one modded king and his wife.
At scenario start you will receive written descriptions of a bunch of courtiers, who are either cousins or married to your starting character's sisters. These people you will then assign as your vassal dukes.
The realms have been modded according to claimable areas of kingdoms mostly, except for border realms, of whose claimable areas are partly held by heathen hordes.
Between sessions I will consider any reasonable edit requests, although all players can express their opinions about them.

Rules:
1) Christian dukedoms and kingdoms may only be destroyed by taking all their demesne provinces if they don't have any vassals.
2a) You may only press a claim in war at duke title, if the duke in question has no vassals. Exception, if the duke has multiple duke titles, you press claim on those duke titles the duke has no vassals in the claimable area of. Vassals not in the area of any duke title held are considered to be vassals of primary duke title.
2b) You may only press a claim in war at king title, if your claim is of sufficient legality. I will consider whether or not your reasoning is sufficiently legal, but one generally agreed legal claim is to be a grandson of a deceased king (ie. your mother was already deceased king's daughter).
3) You may recreate destroyed christian kingdom only if you can trace legal ancestry to the previous king or the previous has no living legal ancestors (exception: kingdom of Jerusalem, see it's own entry)
4) Kingdom's inheritance law needs always to be some type of semi-salic law
5) King with Crusader-trait can crusade freely without restrictions, if he dies his heir can continue wars currently ongoing to their conclusion
6a) Without Crusader-trait, a king may fight to defend other christian kingdom under attack by heathens, in the territory of kingdom under attack and only take back provinces already taken by invaders, which will be Returned (see below) to rightful owner. Actively sending troops to defend other christians allows you to request +200 piety between sessions.
6b) Without Crusader-trait, a king may also fight to reclaim lost christian lands of a kingdom that has fallen (destroyed) or given up the fight (aka made peace). Definition of lost christian land is catholic or orthodox religion lands held by heathens. This land may be Returned if rightful owner still exists, but may also be kept.
7) Returning lands to rightful owners, done by edit between sessions. If the province in question is part of your direct demesne, you will gain -0.5 badboy which equals the badboy reduction of giving the title to your vassal. If you choose to keep the province instead of Returning it when it's required (6a), you will instead gain +2.0 badboy which equals the badboy increase of forcing a claim in offensive war. Returning when it's not required (6b) does not give additional badboy reduction, but instead gives +100 prestige for each province. Each returned province can give you up to +100 piety / province, but you can take less if you want.
8a) Kingdom of Jerusalem, the claimable area of it is always considered christian land (6a and 6b). King of Jerusalem title can never be held by a player nor can it be non-primary title of AI king. If for any reason player comes into possession of king of Jerusalem title, it needs to be given to a duke vassal in the KoJ area, although you may first give additional titles held by you in the KoJ area to a courtier or vassal.
8b) Kingdom of Jerusalem needs to be Elective in inheritance law, checked between sessions
8c) Having your dynasty member as king of Jerusalem makes you eglible to receive +500 prestige for each king, again edited in between sessions.

If you have any questions, just ask. I will be answering questions in this thread, via instant messaging (ICQ 328925130, AIM byakhiam) and during the game itself.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Right, a small base outline of western kingdoms no longer available, see below.

Should I not receive any comment at all, this probably will be last attempt on this...

 

[Hyzhenhok]

Looks good, though I don't know when I have time for another game.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

It's not yet ready, it not supposed to be played tomorrow or not even next week. Feel free to use later (more complete) versions in SP though.

 

[Sterkarm]

I like this idea a lot, especially once I saw it for myself... I'm hoping that Duchies will not be created? But perhaps all the King's courts should be crammed to the brim with courtiers?

 

[Swuul]

Sounds and looks like there is a lot of work to be done still I'd like to help, but work is something I have to do enough anyway...

 

[unmerged(21937)]

@Sterkarm: Every duchy creatable will be created and most of them given to courtiers in the setup. I am fully aware of the free Grabbing abilities creating and giving out allows. I am pondering an option to give each king few claims to neighbouring kingdoms though.

@Jarkko: Lot of work, yeah. But if we play this in MP, the big work of creating individual kings is given to players. The assigning kingdoms and duchies within them was very quick work actually.

 

[unmerged(27106)]

I like the idea. I'd be willing to help you work on it if you wish.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, to help me, say your opinions about these ideas:

1) Cultural borders are same as kingdom borders, though Germany is special case, most of it being german, but duchies of Flandern and Friesen being dutch. Also both Naples and Italy are italian while Leon and Castille are castillan. Otherwise each kingdom has it's own culture assigned to it. Although I guess south slavic will be shared by Croatia, Serbia and Bulgaria too.

2) There are three type of duchies and players may decide which of their duchies is which type:
- Feudal, all provinces gain technologies Soft Leather, Chained Leather, Short Sword and Longspear. Duchy capital (richest prov) will also gain Small Castle and building Small Castle
- Ecclestical, all provinces gain technologies Tile Factory, Basilican Structures, Brickwork Structures and Relics. Duchy capital will gain building Church. Only one duchy out of five may be Ecclestical.
- Mercantile, all provinces gain technologies Minor Merchant Houses, Business Contracts and Annual Sailing. Duchy capital will gain technology Road Building and building Road Network. Mercantile duchies must have coastal provinces. There may be only one Mercantile duchy in a kingdom.

3) Randomized character will be made by me rolling dices on charts I'll make and post soon. They may become better than your own kings or may be worse.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I planned this kind of random character making charts:

Attributes:
	Value (MDIS)	Value (F)	Value (H)
1	2		4 and Chaste	4 and a roll in Birth Defects
2	3		4		4
3	4		5		5
4	4		5		5
5	5		5		5
6	5		6		6
7	6		6		6
8	6		6		6
9	7		7		7
10	7		7		7
11	8		8		8
12	9		8 and Lustful	8 and a roll in Birth Defects

Here we roll the base stats for courtiers. M = Martial, D = Diplomacy, I = Intrigue, S = Stewardship, F = Fertility, H = Health

Traits, rolling doubles gives a roll in Problems and reroll:
	Group 1		Group 2
1	Arbitrary	Just
2	Valorous	Coward
3	Cruel		Merciful
4	Honest		Deceitful
5	Energetic	Lazy
6	Vengeful	Forgiving
7	Selfish		Generous
8	Indulgent	Temperate
9	Modest		Proud
10	Reckless	Wise
11	Zealous		Sceptical
12	Trusting	Suspicious

Personality. Rolling once for both groups.

Education:
	Results for any courtier:
1	Level 1 Court Education, type of best Court stat
2	Detached Priest
3	Misguided Warrior
4	Level 2 Court Education, type of second best Court stat
5	Tough Soldier
6	Martial Cleric
7	Level 2 Court Education, type of best Court Stat
8	Level 3 Court Education, type of second best Court stat
9	Scholarly Theologian
10	Knowledged Tactician
11	Level 3 Court Education, type of best Court Stat
12	Level 4 Education, type of best stat

Education for common courtiers you get to assign.

	Results for bishops:
1	Detached Priest
2	Detached Priest
3	Martial Cleric
4	Martial Cleric
5	Scholarly Theologian
6	Mastermind Theologian

Bishoprics obviously need Ecclestical educated people.

Birth Defects:
	Defect:
1	Bastard
2	Clubfooted
3	Harelip
4	Hunchback
5	Lisp
6	Stutter

Birth Defects you may get from Health chart.

Problems:
	Problem:
1	Stress Symptom
2	Illness
3	Intestinal Worm
4	Depression
5	Stress Symptom
6	Illness

Problems for rolling doubles in Traits. EDIT: Edited them a bit.

Opinions? When you quote, don't quote Charts themselves, because it's a waste of space. Quote intelligently.

 

[Swuul]

I'd suggest the character to be Chaste when one of the dice is a '1' and Lustful when one of the dice is a '6'. Or vice-versa would be better actually This way even low fertility characters could be lustful, and very fertile could be chaste.

Likewise I'd suggest a character to have "birth-deformation" on any roll of doubles. And birth-deformations should also be a 2d6 table to favour some cases (for example stressed should be more common than the others).

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I planned to use 1d12 on 1-12 ranges and 1d6 on 1-6 ranges initially.

 

[unmerged(27106)]

Well, to help me, say your opinions about these ideas:

1) Cultural borders are same as kingdom borders, though Germany is special case, most of it being german, but duchies of Flandern and Friesen being dutch. Also both Naples and Italy are italian while Leon and Castille are castillan. Otherwise each kingdom has it's own culture assigned to it. Although I guess south slavic will be shared by Croatia, Serbia and Bulgaria too.

I think you should leave province cultures as is. I think, for example, that the Province/Latin ethnicity should stay in southern France, and that the Iberian Kings should keep a few provinces with Muslim culture. I think it gives more depth, role-playing wise, and might serve as a fun excuse for player wars over the ethnicity of a province.

2) There are three type of duchies and players may decide which of their duchies is which type:
- Feudal, all provinces gain technologies Soft Leather, Chained Leather, Short Sword and Longspear. Duchy capital (richest prov) will also gain Small Castle and building Small Castle
- Ecclestical, all provinces gain technologies Tile Factory, Basilican Structures, Brickwork Structures and Relics. Duchy capital will gain building Church. Only one duchy out of five may be Ecclestical.
- Mercantile, all provinces gain technologies Minor Merchant Houses, Business Contracts and Annual Sailing. Duchy capital will gain technology Road Building and building Road Network. Mercantile duchies must have coastal provinces. There may be only one Mercantile duchy in a kingdom.

These seem fine, so long as the Pagans start out equally as powerful. I assume that players would pick for the royal demense as though it were a duchy as well, or will there be a special bonus for a royal duchy?

3) Randomized character will be made by me rolling dices on charts I'll make and post soon. They may become better than your own kings or may be worse.

I like the chart, though I don't think you should give out the Kinslayer trait to any NPC rulers at the beginning of the game. I know the chances are remote, that they'll wind up with it, but I still think that it should be initially left off.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I think you should leave province cultures as is. I think, for example, that the Province/Latin ethnicity should stay in southern France, and that the Iberian Kings should keep a few provinces with Muslim culture. I think it gives more depth, role-playing wise, and might serve as a fun excuse for player wars over the ethnicity of a province.

Well, I'm removing the moslems in Iberia as well as any non-catholics in catholic kingdoms at start. If we presume that those lands have been conquered for a while, there's little point in keeping them pagans / moslems, except for free piety... Imo the ethnicity ain't a very good reason for war RP-wise in those dark medieval days. If there is a good role-playing reason to make differences in culture, it may be ok, but personally I find "Bohemond Capet"s rather disturbing feature in France. As a balancing factor culture affects tech spread as well.

These seem fine, so long as the Pagans start out equally as powerful. I assume that players would pick for the royal demense as though it were a duchy as well, or will there be a special bonus for a royal duchy?

Royal demesne is a feudal duchy, gaining the feudal duchy start advantages. If desired, country capital may receive some additional benefit.

I like the chart, though I don't think you should give out the Kinslayer trait to any NPC rulers at the beginning of the game. I know the chances are remote, that they'll wind up with it, but I still think that it should be initially left off.

I'll change Kinslayer to some other nastiness. Made Illness and Stress more likely.

 

[unmerged(27106)]

Well, I'm removing the moslems in Iberia as well as any non-catholics in catholic kingdoms at start. If we presume that those lands have been conquered for a while, there's little point in keeping them pagans / moslems, except for free piety...

I wasn't saying that you should leave Pagan/Muslim religious groups, although I don't have a problem with it. I was rather saying you should leave, for example, Arab culture in parts of iberia or Prussian culture in the lands that Prussian culture exists.

Imo the ethnicity ain't a very good reason for war RP-wise in those dark medieval days. If there is a good role-playing reason to make differences in culture, it may be ok, but personally I find "Bohemond Capet"s rather disturbing feature in France.

As I have only a dim grasp on midieval history, these things have never bothered me. I can see why others might be annoyed by them, though.

As a balancing factor culture affects tech spread as well.

Which, IMHO, is another reason to leave culture as is. Smaller countries are more likely to be more homogenous, which will give them an advantage over their larger and more diverse neighbors.

Royal demesne is a feudal duchy, gaining the feudal duchy start advantages. If desired, country capital may receive some additional benefit.

I think the royal demense should be able to choose between feudal and mercantile (unless by mercantile you mean make it a republic). If, for example, the King of Germany wanted to be Flemish or whatever, he should be allowed to begin with mercantile techs in lieu of military ones if he wants to.

I also think that the royal capital should begin with a few more techs than a normal duchy. As it is a very important center (and the place that the most royal sponsorship would be taking place), it would make sense that the royal capital might be more advanced than the rest of the country. Whether the extra techs should be random, selected by the players, or standard for all domains is something that should be debated. I would lean towards the 3rd one, personally, but it is something that could be argued a number of ways.

I assume that all provinces begin with small forts, but it's possible that you might have them starting without them.

I'll change Kinslayer to some other nastiness.

Gut.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I wasn't saying that you should leave Pagan/Muslim religious groups, although I don't have a problem with it. I was rather saying you should leave, for example, Arab culture in parts of iberia or Prussian culture in the lands that Prussian culture exists.

Well, I plan to leave prussians in Teutonic Order lands and whole North Africa (except Jerusalem) will be arab, so there are many arabs already. The biggest change so far has been homogenizing Burgundy into latin, which is not used in any provinces in normal 1066. Iberians are small kingdoms already and when they already have castillan, catalan and portuguese, no point in hampering them more with arabs...

As I have only a dim grasp on midieval history, these things have never bothered me. I can see why others might be annoyed by them, though.

Well, as free-time hobby historian, I am rather bothered by using nationalistic ideas (like wars for ethnicity) when first grasps in nationalism were made in 19th century. Afaik people in middle ages were most importantly parisians, londonians and smallvilleans. Surely they belonged to some kingdom, but king was a faroff figure and they certainly didn't go around boasting "I am french". Though don't get me wrong, I am not annoyed by people that don't see studying history as worthwhile pasttime. I rather wish to just share my information when people are willing to hear.

Which, IMHO, is another reason to leave culture as is. Smaller countries are more likely to be more homogenous, which will give them an advantage over their larger and more diverse neighbors.

Well, so far I have made Germany to have both german and dutch. Maybe France could use differently cultured areas too as well as Italy perhaps.

I think the royal demense should be able to choose between feudal and mercantile (unless by mercantile you mean make it a republic). If, for example, the King of Germany wanted to be Flemish or whatever, he should be allowed to begin with mercantile techs in lieu of military ones if he wants to.

Mercantile duchies are republics in game terms. Think about Hansa as an example.

I also think that the royal capital should begin with a few more techs than a normal duchy. As it is a very important center (and the place that the most royal sponsorship would be taking place), it would make sense that the royal capital might be more advanced than the rest of the country. Whether the extra techs should be random, selected by the players, or standard for all domains is something that should be debated. I would lean towards the 3rd one, personally, but it is something that could be argued a number of ways.

How about giving royal demesne duchy feudal, mercantile and ecclestical technologies? Third option is the best of those obviously, because too many options encourage powergaming and people will complain about randomization being unfair after they get crappy techs.

I assume that all provinces begin with small forts, but it's possible that you might have them starting without them.

All provinces will have Hill Forts and feudal capitals will have Small Castles.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Right, version 2 featuring follows:

- All christian realms in place
- Knight Orders in place
- Kingdom of Jerusalem given some duchies as vassals

Please take a look and give opinions about what do you think of the kingdoms at the moment and what do you like the idea in KoJ (should be quite obvious if you look around a bit). Next version probably includes final outlay of cultures and moslem / pagan realms.

EDIT: Next version up soon, be patient!

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Version 3 is now ready, featuring all kingdoms, christian, pagan or moslem in place.

EDIT: Next version is up.

And please give me some comments...

 

[unmerged(27106)]

You put up your third iteration before I had a chance to comment on the second!

I'm taking a look now, and will comment shortly.

 

[unmerged(27106)]

A few suggestions/questions:

1) I would get rid of the Hospitillars and Templars, and fold their territory into Jerusalem (but only if combined with the next suggestion.)

2) I think Mauretania, North Africa, Tunesia, Egypt, and Jerusalem should be Islamic rather than Christian Kingdoms.

3) Have you done tech distributions yet?

4) Why no Kingdom of Lithuiania/Kingdom of Rus?

It looks promising. From a MP gamer perspective, I would probably leave France and Germany as NPC realms, as they are considerably larger than any of the other Kingdoms. That, however, has more to do with playing a game than putting the scenario together.