Let's talk: The Arethi Elves

[unmerged(492719)]

Hopefully a little series about the various races/religions/etc of the game. What do you guys think about the Sons of Areth? Strong? Too strong? Great early, terrible late, or the other way around?


My thoughts: Gimped beyond belief, only saving grace is a strong advanced archer unit, and a few good Elite units. This race has a huge list of cons, and only really one solid pro, and I don't think it makes up for it. The only good way to play them is to hope you can get a size 5 off-race town early so you can compete. Generally best strategy is to bee-line bowmasters (stun archers). This means getting no economy from your capital however, in a race with high costs, and few good production facilities. They require large amounts of gold and mana, but have no structure that is particularly good at generating them. In comparison, humans can build Magic Gardens, and monsters can build cheese caves, both are fairly common. Spearman cost as much as a halberdier, with less than half the HP and worse resists. Their 'signature' build, of mana and/or research is incredibly costly. Heck, they don't even HAVE good mana generation compared to any other race until they get giant cities... and that late in the game mana is generally plentiful.

All in all your best bet with the Arethi seems to be a short game blitz of stun bows as your treasury and mana vault empties, and hoping to permanently take out an enemy before they gain elite units. And if they get anything with 'immune to banes' you are pretty much done.

 

[Fenryder]

I dont play them enough to be an expert but when i do there is a feeling of lacking resources. Specifically women. The whole race is a flying bow strung sausage fest. They do get space ships..which must count for something even if they are spaceships full of saaaaaaailors! When one of their ships is destroyed it literally is "raining men"...well elves in this case.

Really though I dont think they are gimped as you say. Their focus is research, like monster have food and undead mana..and its a shame that research doesnt have a secondary benefit like food can be turned to gold. I think their units are fine..they are very mobile and fairly nifty looking.

 

[unmerged(492719)]

I dont play them enough to be an expert but when i do there is a feeling of lacking resources. Specifically women. The whole race is a flying bow strung sausage fest. They do get space ships..which must count for something even if they are spaceships full of saaaaaaailors! When one of their ships is destroyed it literally is "raining men"...well elves in this case.

Really though I dont think they are gimped as you say. Their focus is research, like monster have food and undead mana..and its a shame that research doesnt have a secondary benefit like food can be turned to gold. I think their units are fine..they are very mobile and fairly nifty looking.

Research actually turns into mana at 2 research for 1 mana. So if you tech-out by turn 100 you get a tiny amount of mana production in return. But the cost per point of research is in general so high that it's never a good way to generate mana.

Compare the Arethi Spearman to pretty much anything that costs 70 to 80 gold (Cutthroats for example) and they are pretty noticeably lacking. And as much as their starting two units are decently fast, every one of the rest of their units is slow.

Even if they want to focus on research, they actually need more money to get a small bit of research. A human can get 3 research and 3 mana for 3 gold (mana trap, library). Monsters can get 5 mana and 2 research for the same. For 3 gold (Mana trap, alchemy thinggy) elves get 1 research. They can then pay something like 6 more gold for 4 more research with the Chamber of Magic. It's a crap ton of gold to get 5 research, and it isn't even building efficient. You can from there on pay 10 more gold for the hall of science, to double your 5 research. That's about 20 gold for 10 research. Yes, you could have had an excavation and gotten substantially more. But for that cost efficiency, I'd rather just build the excavation structure for 10, and put the rest of my population into gold production... just like everyone else does.

Basically think of it this way: Every source of research costs some amount, generally a lot. You are limited in two ways in your ability to get this research: Availability, and cost. A race that produces more gold can take more of the research available to them. Having elves with high availability, but low gold production, means they just run their economy into the ground more so when persuing it.

I feel like the biggest mistake I've made in trying to play the Arethi has almost always been making a 'research city' early on. Sure, get some excavations... but don't double down on the high cost high end buildings you can't afford.

 

[The Apprentice]

(I can only speak about the Single Player game, not MP)

In terms of gold, mana, and food... Elves require more care than the base races. Your cities need to generate all three types of resources in a balanced way early game to afford your basic go-to unit- no other race has that concern. [I think?]

In terms of unit mixes, pre-armageddon the Elves were very potent with just the Archer, the Spearman, and heroes. No need for the Healer, Mage, or Ship units. Post-Armageddon, I think the Elves only need to add more accessible/potent elemental damage- or possibly the Spirits of Life. Bowmaster Stun is just that great.

In terms of Great Mage perk picks, I've had success with Koatl training (to build on the early/late game survivability) and the Imp-Advisor. The addition of a powerful unit early game helps with the slow start of the Elves- a size 5 city is a very doable capture with your starting forces.

As for Temple units, the Spirit of Life is the only one I tend to make- I don't even know WHY anyone would want to build that Death Horse thing. The Helia unit appears fragile to me, and the Lunord unit average. It's decent, but not exceptional.

I'm curious what other Great Mage picks people like, and if there is a case for building the other Temple units!

 

[Efyian]

their biggest flaw is the 3 turn, 75 gold settlers (as opposed to 2 turn, 50 gold).

It's almost frightening just how much that affects your economy and ability to travel on the map, even more than speccing your capital for military production.
After all, a huge amount of your gold should come from looting the map.
On the other hand, a whole army that can stun any unit that is not immune to banes can often win the game easily, even without good melee troops or anything like that.

Since their iril bows have 22 or 23 hp anyways, they don't really need melee troops.
And a mass upgrading to iril bowmasters can easily win.

Their magic units and flying ships are all utterly useless because they're too expensive and low on hp, and the iril bows are too good for their price
Similarly, the knights are kind of redundant. Hard to kill, but you don't really need hard to kill yet expensive to train healers...

 

[unmerged(492719)]

their biggest flaw is the 3 turn, 75 gold settlers (as opposed to 2 turn, 50 gold).

It's almost frightening just how much that affects your economy and ability to travel on the map, even more than speccing your capital for military production.
After all, a huge amount of your gold should come from looting the map.
On the other hand, a whole army that can stun any unit that is not immune to banes can often win the game easily, even without good melee troops or anything like that.

Since their iril bows have 22 or 23 hp anyways, they don't really need melee troops.
And a mass upgrading to iril bowmasters can easily win.

Their magic units and flying ships are all utterly useless because they're too expensive and low on hp, and the iril bows are too good for their price
Similarly, the knights are kind of redundant. Hard to kill, but you don't really need hard to kill yet expensive to train healers...

I feel like they aren't particularly time efficient. Yes, you can control a fight, but the bowmasters only deal, well, slightly lower than average damage for an 'advanced' unit (11 missile). Anything that can get the drop on them, is bane immune, or is strong and dispelles completely destroys them. Blademasters are a really good example, as they can dish out gigantic damage, are immune to banes, and have some missile resist to start.

Heck, even with their stun, I don't really find bowmaster rushes to be a particularly good way to kill big bad things like GFE's (And of course they completely fail against anchor guardians). Mages for humans feel more all-around capable.

And yeah, the lack of Mint really hurts their ability to pump out elite units late game. Maybe if the Bowmasters could upgrade into spirits of night or something?

 

[unmerged(489718)]

The Arethi are actually a very powerful race once the player has some experience with them. I never bother building melee or magic users but rely on the archers along with whatever melee units I come across in the first part of the game. I agree that their economy tends to be weaker than other races, but as the game progresses, I leave the archers in a defensive roll and employ 3 flying gilions and two spirits of light to steamroll even the most powerful capitals in one or two turns.

 

[The Apprentice]

Well, I don't think anyone was contending that the Arethi are a weak race, just talking about their quirks. Unless Zechno means they are so gimped as to be actually weak?

Re the list of Cons: I think the Spears are a viable unit compared to the Halberdiers. Assuming both are available, I will always build Spears. They have higher movement, and a sight advantage. They have a wider range of base resistances, including elemental and death. While the melee and missile resistances are lower, those are the among the easiest to raise with perks. Further, they are much easier to upgrade into their second tier, and in doing so gain an elemental attack. Halberdiers always seemed too slow to me. Melee units need to be able to close with the enemy, and since the Arethi have such good archer units an inconvenient hill can prevent the Halberd's from ever being involved.

Has anyone played around with the Warlock units? Once I saw they inflicted death magic instead of elemental I figured human Mages would always be the better option, and haven't really given it much more thought. As for the flying ships, since their list of purchaseable perks is so limited compared to a Spearman, I just levitated Spearmen instead in a "Racial Purity" game I did.

Do Warlocks/Flying Ships have a useful space in the current game?

 

[unmerged(469337)]

Warlocks look awesome that is why i build them LOL. Bad thing is that too many things are immune to death (elementals, death dragons, lot of temple units)
Arethi elves have some kind of "feel/personality" in the game that is why i like them. And their knights are like paladins of life with cleave and they cost 100g less.

 

[unmerged(492719)]

Well, I don't think anyone was contending that the Arethi are a weak race, just talking about their quirks. Unless Zechno means they are so gimped as to be actually weak?

Re the list of Cons: I think the Spears are a viable unit compared to the Halberdiers. Assuming both are available, I will always build Spears. They have higher movement, and a sight advantage. They have a wider range of base resistances, including elemental and death. While the melee and missile resistances are lower, those are the among the easiest to raise with perks. Further, they are much easier to upgrade into their second tier, and in doing so gain an elemental attack. Halberdiers always seemed too slow to me. Melee units need to be able to close with the enemy, and since the Arethi have such good archer units an inconvenient hill can prevent the Halberd's from ever being involved.

Halberdiers have a slow aura though! It works on things immune to banes! It is not to be ignored . I honestly can't imagine actually purchasing an 18 HP unit for 70 gold, unless it's like the Spirit of Light and has huge resists everywhere. And I'm sure not going to invest in 80 gold more worth of perks just to make it live a bit longer!

80 Gold for a cutthroat - 22 damage, 33 hit points, No resists, vision 2, 5 movement. Cutthroat is clearly a stronger fighting unit.
75 Gold for a Halberdier - 16 Damage, 50 hit points, Advanced armor, vision 2, 3 movement, Slow Aura. Much more combat effective, though will have a harder time being in combat.
70 Gold for Spearman - 15 Damage, 18 hit points, elven resistances/armor, vision 3, 5 movement. Less damage, less health. Less effective health even compared to the cutthroat (that is, taking account of resistances).

Sure it's a little less than the others, but it doesn't come close to stacking up. It's a sorta 'all-in-one' style unit where I'd much rather just have two units that do their respective jobs better. And it doesn't upgrade to a good unit either! The spearmaster is 250 gold, 26 HP 24 damage. He gets finisher, and a possible 'hit two' effect. 250 Gold cost is the same as 2.5 Veterans, 25% more than a vampire, and worth 3 cuthroats (Yet even at 250 gold, he STILL has less health than a cutthroat, and only a smidgen more starting damage!).

Argh. I just feel this unit is such a huge waste of space. I don't mind starting with one, but I'm never going to build another one after that.

Also, extreme resists in a few areas is often very beneficial, as it lets you pit them against the units they are most resistant to.

 

[The Apprentice]

(Not terribly swayed by the slow aura, myself. Can't tell if you were serious about it being a useful thing or not, though. )

I agree with you about the extreme usefulness of extreme resists- in practice, however, I find that Melee and Missile resist aren't the ones to worry about. Melee combat just doesn't happen that often with my playstyle... the Spearmen generally are used to run up to a city and prevent healing while the Archers and Imp do the damage. Once I get bowmasters, melee combat virtually only happens if it will finish off the unit or to get XP (due to the Bowmaster stun ability).

As for missile, Skele Snipers are the only real source of Missile damage in the mid-game, aren't they? By then I generally have silver/enchanted weapons, so my Archers aren't an unreasonable option for fighting them. The main resistances I find myself dealing with are Elemental, Spirit, and Death. Arethi units get a head start on those, vis-a-vi the other units you mentioned.

Maybe I am overly enamored of non-melee/non-death damage. I like that the Spear deals both melee and elemental, though that could just be because it allows for more use against GFE and Ogres in theory. And other units with Melee/Death resist. But this really could be insignificant... haven't thought about all the potential neutrals you can run into early game. Cutthroats deal more damage, but only against no-death resistant creatures. Considering all the foes in game, I'd guess a base Spearman will deal more effective damage than a comparable Halberdier, because more resist melee than elemental.

As for cost:* The Arethi Archer and Spear have odd upgrade costs (unsure about the other Arethi units). While it costs 250 to train a Spearmaster, it only costs 180 to upgrade one. Similarly, while it costs 150 to train a Bowmaster, it only cost 110 to upgrade one. Cutthroats are still far easier to mass produce, but at least its not 320 for a Spearmaster. And 2.5 Veterans are certainly a much beefier wall than 1 Spearmaster.

All in all, your point about Spearmen being expensive for what they do is well taken.

*= This is assuming a recent patch hasn't changed things. Maybe all the base units upgrade this way now.

 

[Mardagg]

*= This is assuming a recent patch hasn't changed things. Maybe all the base units upgrade this way now.

No,it didnt change.
All Arethi units have the advantage that upgrading a unit only costs its advanced cost-base cost whereas all other races have to pay the full cost of the advanced unit when upgrading.
This is a pretty big advantage especially for the more expensive units like the flying ships and warlocks since you can always build just the base unit and then upgrade situational without burning money in the process and "heal" the unit doing so.
I am surprised this hasnt been mentioned before here in the forum.
I consider this one of the strengths of the Arethi Elves even though i am not too sure if this intended by the devs or just a bug or if all units of all races will upgrade this way in future patches.

 

[Efyian]

warlocks do get an elemental damage spell/ability with a pretty short cooldown.
But it still doesn't make up for that 300 gold cost, especially when compared to say... human wizards are 180gold.

You really need to get MP experience Zechnophobe
It really teaches you a lot more about the game, and the strengths/weaknesses. I thought I knew all the key points of the game as well, until I started playing MP and learned a lot more about the depth of the game.

Comparing a 150gold unit you can start making by turn 20, to a blademaster that generally only show up by turn 40 just doesn't work (and even on turn 40, it's debatable whether you want a single blademaster, or 6 iril bows).
The key point for iril bows is the timing at which they can come out, and control the game, which is around turns 20-60.
The lockdown ability also prevents enemy units from retreating (i.e. lockdown the early game enemy heroes and kill them), and prevents units from going into guard mode to reduce damage by 34%.

That said, it does depend on whether you allow favor of fervus/grum-gog. If those 2 abilities are allowed, then training units early game is just a huge detriment since you can loot lairs easily with spells, and training units at the cost of econ is pointless.

Alone, multiple iril bows do take several turns to kill a GFE, but that's assuming you don't have a hero or elemental damage spell to help support.
if you have those though, then the lockdown ability of iril bows just makes things much easier, and you don't take any damage.
And that assumes the iril bows don't have enhancements like enchanted weapons for extra elemental damage.


But ultimately, the thing about the Arathi is... its simply more efficient to place another race, find a neutral arathi village (very common), and train iril bows from that, and upgrade them. A training ground in a human/UD/monster city will still allow arathi units to be upgraded, and since their upgrade cost is 110 rather than 150, you're not paying extra gold

the apprentice:
the slow aura is not particularly great in SP, since the AI is silly and its very easy to kill units.
However, that slow aura is absolutely vital for high-level MP play, in preventing enemy units from retreating.

Among other benefits, it also makes it very hard for the enemy to cycle injured units back, and then fill those spots with fresh full hp units. The 50hp halberds are great for moving into a spot, going into guard mode, and just occupying that tile (preventing the enemy from moving onto it to attack from).
And if the enemy decides to mass focus all their units to attack and kill the halberds, well they're cheap at 75gold, and your primary damage units (wizards, archers, heroes) will get a turn to launch attacks on the enemy units.

 

[Mardagg]

To me ,Arethi Elves are clearly inferior to the other 3 races as starting race pick with one exception:
Huge Map with Spell of Mastery on.On this setting,Arethi are probably on par with the other races because of having the best reasearch abilities.

But they do add a lot of depth and fun to the game when it comes to indie cities:

-Level 5 arethi cities can be very time consuming to conquer because of the knight.
-Iril Bows and even more so the Bowmasters are probably the best unit in the game on a cost/what they offer basis.
-Flying ships and warlocks can be a nice addition if lacking UD cities.

Its often enough to have 1 or 2 Indie Arethi cities though and only for units/special resources.If i get more i tend to raze them unless level 5 city because economy wise Arethis just suck and with -20% other race malus its getting unbearable.

Personally ,i wouldnt mind to see the arethi settler getting slightly better and maybe decreasing the cost of arethi spearmasters.
Settler should be either 50 gold/3 turns or 75 gold/2 turns imo.I prefer the 2 turn solution.

 

[unmerged(492719)]

No,it didnt change.
All Arethi units have the advantage that upgrading a unit only costs its advanced cost-base cost whereas all other races have to pay the full cost of the advanced unit when upgrading.
This is a pretty big advantage especially for the more expensive units like the flying ships and warlocks since you can always build just the base unit and then upgrade situational without burning money in the process and "heal" the unit doing so.
I am surprised this hasnt been mentioned before here in the forum.
I consider this one of the strengths of the Arethi Elves even though i am not too sure if this intended by the devs or just a bug or if all units of all races will upgrade this way in future patches.

It totally would be a strength.. if they could upgrade to their units to Elites. The only upgrades they do are bows to bowmasters, spears to spearmasters, and knights to firsts. Knights and spears are both pretty bad, so once again we arrive at a faction with only one good unit until you get to the elite stages.

 

[unmerged(492719)]

warlocks do get an elemental damage spell/ability with a pretty short cooldown.
But it still doesn't make up for that 300 gold cost, especially when compared to say... human wizards are 180gold.

You really need to get MP experience Zechnophobe
It really teaches you a lot more about the game, and the strengths/weaknesses. I thought I knew all the key points of the game as well, until I started playing MP and learned a lot more about the depth of the game.

This is an incorrect way to think about things. Playing with different options doesn't mean you have a more deep understanding of the game, you simply have a better understanding of the options you choose. If you play small, 1v1 maps vs other players, that requires completely different decisions over, for example, extra large 1v1 maps vs other people. You would agree in such a case higher tier units would be more comparably strong, right?

The MP games I've played were on Large maps, generally with Continents. No need to be condescending just because you use different choices.

Heck, I even think I've said on here that the Arethi are probably the best short game faction do to their great starting units and quick upgrade to bowmasters. They just can't maintain that all that long.

 

[UncleJJ]

Elves are an interesting race to play and I agree with most of the comments here. Their bow and bowmaster are probably the best units in the game at that level for their cost and upkeep, but the other Elven units are expensive and quirky. I seldom use any of them except the bows preferring mercenaries or units of other races. The bows and bowmasters provide all the missile firepower you could want and so the mercenaries and units of other races provide melee support by blocking enemy melee attackers and scouting by fast movement. These other units make it easier to use the firepower more safely and more effectively by knowing what to hit and where it is.

The Koatl village is a good starting pick as it gives the Koatl spears a solid melee unit that is cheap and easy to produce and later at city size 10 the dragon turtle. I don't have much need for the Koatl archer or warlock with the Bowmasters' stun and firepower.

Halbadiers are a bit slow but provide a solid meatshield for the bows and are good on defence, and Stuborn knights are fast and good for supporting an attack.

Human units provide good support with rogues and cutthroats being fast and cheap scouts and damage dealers with a good upgrade path to assassin for any thet survive that long. Mages are excellent support and clerics can be useful if you go all the way to temple of Agrela for the Priestess upgrade.

Several Monster units work well with the bows and bowmasters. I like the Goblin Spearman and the Seasoned upgrade as they move at 4 tiles / turn (the same speed as the elven bows) and are cheap to produce and upkeep, making good garrisons and basic support. Trolls or Werewolves make good heavy hitters that have regeneration and can take cities by absorbing the hits.

Undead provide Skeleton warriors and veterans (useful against undead) and bats for scouting. Vampires are useful against living opponents but not needed.

I'll write something on the elven economy later, need to make lunch now

JJ

 

[The Apprentice]

I'd never thought of using the Koatl village perk. That is interesting.

Aren't Spears a pretty dead-end unit though? I find it difficult to use units that will always remain fodder. The two turn build time is pretty useful, but then your capital is tied up making Spears as opposed to Settlers. Unless I find a size 5 city close by, my capital tends to be dedicated to settler spam as Elves.

 

[Efyian]

This is an incorrect way to think about things. Playing with different options doesn't mean you have a more deep understanding of the game, you simply have a better understanding of the options you choose. If you play small, 1v1 maps vs other players, that requires completely different decisions over, for example, extra large 1v1 maps vs other people. You would agree in such a case higher tier units would be more comparably strong, right?

The MP games I've played were on Large maps, generally with Continents. No need to be condescending just because you use different choices.

Heck, I even think I've said on here that the Arethi are probably the best short game faction do to their great starting units and quick upgrade to bowmasters. They just can't maintain that all that long.

Not meant to be a condescending comment in any way.

Just a fact that combat between 2 players is completely different than fighting an AI.
I think you're severely underestimating just how much stunning can alter MP play. Especially since there are very few units in the game that are immune to banes. I mean, even gold dragons can be stunned.
Certainly I completely underestimated it, and continue to disregard it until I ran I experienced it first hand.

Combat between 2 players can make it so that it takes at least 10 turns to take a basic level 4 settlement: and you might not even actually take it (but have the enemy player raze it - creating more open space to travel through which makes it harder for you to reinforce your army and easier for the enemy to).

And frontline fortified level 5 cities with say... 3 magic towers, 2 forts (which an AI would never build).
I've had games where my enemy had around 150 econ, while I was at 70, but it was completely stalemated for 30+ turns because he couldn't advance in any way, after I killed off all his heroes. Which then let me catch up in economy (that game of small great land went on for over 100 turns, and we ended up just calling it a draw because to march through that many level 5+ cities would take insanely long, especially since the units we were training had insanely amounts of resists, and the map oddly didn't have very many resources providing buffs to attack.

 

[unmerged(492719)]

Not meant to be a condescending comment in any way.

Just a fact that combat between 2 players is completely different than fighting an AI.
I think you're severely underestimating just how much stunning can alter MP play. Especially since there are very few units in the game that are immune to banes. I mean, even gold dragons can be stunned.
Certainly I completely underestimated it, and continue to disregard it until I ran I experienced it first hand.

Combat between 2 players can make it so that it takes at least 10 turns to take a basic level 4 settlement: and you might not even actually take it (but have the enemy player raze it - creating more open space to travel through which makes it harder for you to reinforce your army and easier for the enemy to).

And frontline fortified level 5 cities with say... 3 magic towers, 2 forts (which an AI would never build).
I've had games where my enemy had around 150 econ, while I was at 70, but it was completely stalemated for 30+ turns because he couldn't advance in any way, after I killed off all his heroes. Which then let me catch up in economy (that game of small great land went on for over 100 turns, and we ended up just calling it a draw because to march through that many level 5+ cities would take insanely long, especially since the units we were training had insanely amounts of resists, and the map oddly didn't have very many resources providing buffs to attack.

Fair enough. The Ai Doesn't really know how to use debuffs and other such sneaky effects. It sounded like you were saying that you never have a chance to get Elite level units, which in my (albeit limited) mp experience was not the case, and is logically based on map size.

I've played a fair amount of turn based strategy MP in general, so I'm completely understanding how certain things change there. Units that seem awesome, but are a single spell cast from death are much less powerful, for instance.