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HisNoodliness

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Jan 27, 2018
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I read that which liturgical language gets the maximum tech bonus will depend on language power. But what factors go into calculating language power and with which level of weight? i would love to see some examples if possible. For example if the amount of people speaking the language has an effect wouldnt china have the biggest language power and best liturgical language? and do clergy pops count towards the language power of the liturgical language or the language power of the common language of the country which they are based in?

also is there a picture of the language power map mode at the start date?
 
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For example if the amount of people speaking the language has an effect wouldnt china have the biggest language power and best liturgical language?
If it was, then perhaps, but it's not just "China" it's based on all the tags using said liturgical language. Does that mean the pop count of Catholic nations outweigh those that speak Chinese (Mandarin?) - I wouldn't know. I think there's something more than just pop count, but they haven't explained the mechanic fully yet:

We will talk about different language mechanics in a future TT.
 
Personally I don't see why research speed should be based on liturgical language. If this was before Europe's secularization and the Protestant Reformation I would understand it, but it's not. Sure- Latin was used as a language for scientific classifications because it was the most widely spoken language in Europe even after the Protestant Reformation. But people had gone to publishing research papers in their local vernacular. This might be more true in the Islamic world, but only because Arabic is a commonly spoken language across the Middle East- it didn't have the same problems that Latin in Europe did. Papers and the like were published in Arabic because it was the language most people were likely to know in that part of the world.

I can see some sort of overlap with research and liturgical language but it shouldn't be research speed. Perhaps it works better if it's 'neighbor bonus'? It makes more sense that say knowledge transmits across religious lines because it overlaps with cultural lines, and so if England discovers the Flintlock (as they did historically) that then neighboring european christians have an easier inroad to researching and adopting the technology. This makes a lot more rational sense than 'since Latin is really cool, the English can research the Flintlock faster'. This has more impact since we have full on tech-trees as well, which would turn religions more into soft 'tech groups'.

On the other hand I feel this will severely nerf minority religions, and prioritize the adoption of large religious groups in the name of meta mechanics. This'd certainly impact Protestant groups who are gonna split amongst vernacular language lines.
 
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The transition from Latin as the language of Science didn't really start happening till the mid to late 1700s in Europe, that's including Protestant nations. It really didn't happen till Nationalism started to be a thing and that's basically at the tail end of the play period
 
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Personally I don't see why research speed should be based on liturgical language. If this was before Europe's secularization and the Protestant Reformation I would understand it, but it's not. Sure- Latin was used as a language for scientific classifications because it was the most widely spoken language in Europe even after the Protestant Reformation. But people had gone to publishing research papers in their local vernacular. This might be more true in the Islamic world, but only because Arabic is a commonly spoken language across the Middle East- it didn't have the same problems that Latin in Europe did. Papers and the like were published in Arabic because it was the language most people were likely to know in that part of the world.

I can see some sort of overlap with research and liturgical language but it shouldn't be research speed. Perhaps it works better if it's 'neighbor bonus'? It makes more sense that say knowledge transmits across religious lines because it overlaps with cultural lines, and so if England discovers the Flintlock (as they did historically) that then neighboring european christians have an easier inroad to researching and adopting the technology. This makes a lot more rational sense than 'since Latin is really cool, the English can research the Flintlock faster'. This has more impact since we have full on tech-trees as well, which would turn religions more into soft 'tech groups'.

On the other hand I feel this will severely nerf minority religions, and prioritize the adoption of large religious groups in the name of meta mechanics. This'd certainly impact Protestant groups who are gonna split amongst vernacular language lines.
Liturgical language is probably the wrong term for what Paradox is going for. What they actually mean is intellectual language, which is not quite the same thing.

Latin did gradually lose ground to various local languages in this respect, particularly later in the time period. But even when works weren't originally written in Latin they were frequently translated into Latin for export. So Latin was still the intellectual lingua franca in Western Europe until probably the very end of the EU5 setting. This is true even in Protestant countries, which abandoned Latin for religious purposes but NOT for scientific purposes - a point I hope Paradox takes into account.

In the Islamic world most scientific work was done in Arabic or Persian, depending on the region and the genre. Essentially all intellectuals were fluent in Arabic everywhere in the Islamic world, fluency in Persian was limited to Greater Persia and India. Very late in the period you do start to find some scientific works being written in Turkish as well (exclusively in the Ottoman Empire), but this was pretty minor and most science was still written in Arabic.

So I think Latin and Arabic make sense for the Catholic and Muslim intellectual languages, respectively. In Hindu India I'm not sure if people were doing science in Sanskrit, Prakrit, the vernacular - or even Persian? Likewise in Southeast Asia - was Pali actually the language of intellectual pursuits or just of scripture? And I really don't know what Orthodox countries were up to, it seems that a lot of them simply switched directly to German or French for scientific purposes, bypassing Latin completely.
 
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Personally I don't see why research speed should be based on liturgical language. If this was before Europe's secularization and the Protestant Reformation I would understand it, but it's not. Sure- Latin was used as a language for scientific classifications because it was the most widely spoken language in Europe even after the Protestant Reformation. But people had gone to publishing research papers in their local vernacular. This might be more true in the Islamic world, but only because Arabic is a commonly spoken language across the Middle East- it didn't have the same problems that Latin in Europe did. Papers and the like were published in Arabic because it was the language most people were likely to know in that part of the world.

I can see some sort of overlap with research and liturgical language but it shouldn't be research speed. Perhaps it works better if it's 'neighbor bonus'? It makes more sense that say knowledge transmits across religious lines because it overlaps with cultural lines, and so if England discovers the Flintlock (as they did historically) that then neighboring european christians have an easier inroad to researching and adopting the technology. This makes a lot more rational sense than 'since Latin is really cool, the English can research the Flintlock faster'. This has more impact since we have full on tech-trees as well, which would turn religions more into soft 'tech groups'.

On the other hand I feel this will severely nerf minority religions, and prioritize the adoption of large religious groups in the name of meta mechanics. This'd certainly impact Protestant groups who are gonna split amongst vernacular language lines.
Same feelings, I think the market language should be the one that affects technology progress, not liturgical language. As merchants often move around the market across Europe and brings with them the most advanced products which in many cases the most profitable goods. New scientific research should randomly pop up and spread by merchants and traders.
 
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so i understand that a lot of intellectuals spoke latin during the period of eu5 and a lot of academic work was thus written in latin. but wouldnt technological progress be a factor of both the amount of pops and the literacy of said pop. it would make more sense if the strength of the liturgical(intellectual) language would depend on both these factors? So if we count all clergy pops in europe as latin speaking pop and use their average literacy u might be able to make an interesting formula for the technological strength of the language so to speak. seeing as we havent gotten any formula or more info on how language power and such is calculated i guess it is hard to judge yet but i would love to know how language power is calculated and hope it is done through a combination of literacy and amount of pops. say your commoners are very literate it might make sense to change ur language to the common language as u might then have more pops that speak that language then the amount of clergy pops in europe that speak latin.
 
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This might be more true in the Islamic world, but only because Arabic is a commonly spoken language across the Middle East- it didn't have the same problems that Latin in Europe did. Papers and the like were published in Arabic because it was the language most people were likely to know in that part of the world.
Sorry for tangenting, but actually Arabic has a famous case of diglossia. The vernacular dialects are pretty distinct from the literary language, having totally different word order and totally missing noun case, verb moods, plural feminine verbs, dual verbs and many sentence structures, not to mention distinct lexicon and phonology (even syllable structure). It's definitely not as far removed as the Romance languages from Latin, and dialects were never considered distinct languages, but you couldn't just pick up some literature and read/write the way you spoke. You needed to spend time learning it, which frequently took place through religious education. I think the Greeks had a similar situation with their language? Very similar to Latin though, the religious and literary prestige of Classical Arabic is what meant that dialects were never written.
 
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Liturgical language is probably the wrong term for what Paradox is going for. What they actually mean is intellectual language, which is not quite the same thing.

Latin did gradually lose ground to various local languages in this respect, particularly later in the time period. But even when works weren't originally written in Latin they were frequently translated into Latin for export. So Latin was still the intellectual lingua franca in Western Europe until probably the very end of the EU5 setting. This is true even in Protestant countries, which abandoned Latin for religious purposes but NOT for scientific purposes - a point I hope Paradox takes into account.

In the Islamic world most scientific work was done in Arabic or Persian, depending on the region and the genre. Essentially all intellectuals were fluent in Arabic everywhere in the Islamic world, fluency in Persian was limited to Greater Persia and India. Very late in the period you do start to find some scientific works being written in Turkish as well (exclusively in the Ottoman Empire), but this was pretty minor and most science was still written in Arabic.

So I think Latin and Arabic make sense for the Catholic and Muslim intellectual languages, respectively. In Hindu India I'm not sure if people were doing science in Sanskrit, Prakrit, the vernacular - or even Persian? Likewise in Southeast Asia - was Pali actually the language of intellectual pursuits or just of scripture? And I really don't know what Orthodox countries were up to, it seems that a lot of them simply switched directly to German or French for scientific purposes, bypassing Latin completely.
Even then it's not research speed that should be increased by the 'prestige' of a language itself, but tech discounts for techs researched by the same nations that use that language.
 
From Generalist Gaming:

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At 26:40 he talks about liturgical language power. Sounds like it depends wholly on the amount of clergy pops, while average literacy and clergy satisfaction affect research speed on country level.
 
In Hindu India I'm not sure if people were doing science in Sanskrit, Prakrit, the vernacular - or even Persian?
In Hindu India specifically? Mostly Sanskrit, which remained the language of formal treatise in science, literature, and (especially) theology. The works of Kerala school, for instance, which flourished between the fourteenth and sixteenth centuries and focused on astronomy and mathematics, were mostly in Sanskrit - such as its foundational text, the Tantrasangraha by Nilakantha Somayaji. That being said, commentaries on these texts were sometimes written in the vernacular; the Yuktibhasha by Jyeshthadeva, which is a commentary on the previous text, was written in Malayalam (and is, in my opinion, the more important of the two, since it semi-rigorously proves theorems on infinite series conjectured in the former). All of the formal Navya-Nyaya (lit. "new logic," basically a philosophical and epistemological school) texts were also in Sanskrit, though again commentaries were written in Bengali, which was the local language where the school reached its zenith (though note that that region was under Muslim rule).

Overall, then, you might expect things like commentaries or didactic prose and poetry (such as in astrology or medicine) to be written in the vernacular. Some local traditions could also have their formal writing be in the vernacular - shiddha, which is a traditional form of Tamil medicine (and complete quackery) had its technical writing in Tamil prose or verse. Some religious texts could also be written in vernacular, such as the Lingayat tradition mostly having its works be in Kannada, though these were on the whole mostly devotional poems, not analyses of Vedic theology.

Since you brought up Persian I may as well cover Muslim courts. In these, depending on the particulars of the time, both Sanskrit and Persian would have been patronized (with the religion of the scholar determining the language of writing). That being said, going by the fact that much more Sanskrit texts were translated into Persian than the other way round, Persian was definitely the language of most scholars. And Arabic, mostly in law and theology. The major "Persianate" vernacular was Urdu, which emerged from various historical processes, but its literary tradition was born in the Deccan, after that disastrous 1327 capital change (and un-change, though the nobles stayed). It was mostly literary, not scientific; some of the finest poetry from the period is in Urdu, especially under the sponsorship of the Bahmanis.

Also, a note on terminology: "Prakrit" is a weird word used to describe both the common Indo-Aryan vernacular languages between the fifth and twelfth c. and the strand of related literary languages that emerged from Classical Sanskrit were used during the time period. In our time period of interest, Prakrit is not a good term to use, since most of the Indo-Aryan languages are considered to have reached their "modern" stages.


Gameplay-wise, liturgical languages are designated by religion, so undoubtedly the system will fail to capture some of the nuance we have here, especially in the case of the sultanates. I am unsure what effect this will have exactly, since I assume all languages have "language power", but I do not know what that actually does.

Likewise in Southeast Asia - was Pali actually the language of intellectual pursuits or just of scripture?
Depends on where and when. Sanskrit would have been used in some places, especially pre-Islamization, before being replaced by Arabic. Though in strongly Buddhist areas like mainland SEA, definitely Pali.
 
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In Hindu India specifically? Mostly Sanskrit, which remained the language of formal treatise in science, literature, and (especially) theology. The works of Kerala school, for instance, which flourished between the fourteenth and sixteenth centuries and focused on astronomy and mathematics, were mostly in Sanskrit - such as its foundational text, the Tantrasangraha by Nilakantha Somayaji. That being said, commentaries on these texts were sometimes written in the vernacular; the Yuktibhasha by Jyeshthadeva, which is a commentary on the previous text, was written in Malayalam (and is, in my opinion, the more important of the two, since it semi-rigorously proves theorems on infinite series conjectured in the former). All of the formal Navya-Nyaya (lit. "new logic," basically a philosophical and epistemological school) texts were also in Sanskrit, though again commentaries were written in Bengali, which was the local language where the school reached its zenith (though note that that region was under Muslim rule).

Overall, then, you might expect things like commentaries or didactic prose and poetry (such as in astrology or medicine) to be written in the vernacular. Some local traditions could also have their formal writing be in the vernacular - shiddha, which is a traditional form of Tamil medicine (and complete quackery) had its technical writing in Tamil prose or verse. Some religious texts could also be written in vernacular, such as the Lingayat tradition mostly having its works be in Kannada, though these were on the whole mostly devotional poems, not analyses of Vedic theology.

Since you brought up Persian I may as well cover Muslim courts. In these, depending on the particulars of the time, both Sanskrit and Persian would have been patronized (with the religion of the scholar determining the language of writing). That being said, going by the fact that much more Sanskrit texts were translated into Persian than the other way round, Persian was definitely the language of most scholars. And Arabic, mostly in law and theology. The major "Persianate" vernacular was Urdu, which emerged from various historical processes, but its literary tradition was born in the Deccan, after that disastrous 1327 capital change (and un-change, though the nobles stayed). It was mostly literary, not scientific; some of the finest poetry from the period is in Urdu, especially under the sponsorship of the Bahmanis.

Also, a note on terminology: "Prakrit" is a weird word used to describe both the common Indo-Aryan vernacular languages between the fifth and twelfth c. and the strand of related literary languages that emerged from Classical Sanskrit were used during the time period. In our time period of interest, Prakrit is not a good term to use, since most of the Indo-Aryan languages are considered to have reached their "modern" stages.


Gameplay-wise, liturgical languages are designated by religion, so undoubtedly the system will fail to capture some of the nuance we have here, especially in the case of the sultanates. I am unsure what effect this will have exactly, since I assume all languages have "language power", but I do not know what that actually does.


Depends on where and when. Sanskrit would have been used in some places, especially pre-Islamization, before being replaced by Arabic. Though in strongly Buddhist areas like mainland SEA, definitely Pali.
Very enlightening, thank you. Seems like Paradox may have to elaborate on this system at some point if it wants to capture some of these nuances. Switching to "intellectual language" might help, as I do think liturgical language isn't really what's at play here and will prove confusing in certain contexts (such as Protestant countries that adopt the vernacular as the liturgical language but retain Latin as the intellectual language).

Countries could also have multiple intellectual languages corresponding to different domains of knowledge. For instance, Indian sultanates might use Arabic for admin tech but Persian for diplo and military.
 
I think I was mistaken that it's a "liturgical language power" and instead it's just based on language power. So if you spread French a ton, then swapping liturgical to french makes sense. You get language power from:
-Clergy of pops that are the primary religion using that lit language.
-Political power of primary culture pops, scaled by country rank, using it as court language.
-Trade capacity from countries where it's the common language.
-Cultural influence from cultures using the language.
-Trade advantage from markets using the language (I assume market language).
 
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I think I was mistaken that it's a "liturgical language power" and instead it's just based on language power. So if you spread French a ton, then swapping liturgical to french makes sense. You get language power from:
-Clergy of pops that are the primary religion using that lit language.
-Political power of primary culture pops, scaled by country rank, using it as court language.
-Trade capacity from countries where it's the common language.
-Cultural influence from cultures using the language.
-Trade advantage from markets using the language (I assume market language).
Oh good. So no Latin meta for the whole game then!
 
I think I was mistaken that it's a "liturgical language power" and instead it's just based on language power. So if you spread French a ton, then swapping liturgical to french makes sense. You get language power from:
-Clergy of pops that are the primary religion using that lit language.
-Political power of primary culture pops, scaled by country rank, using it as court language.
-Trade capacity from countries where it's the common language.
-Cultural influence from cultures using the language.
-Trade advantage from markets using the language (I assume market language).
Oh good. So no Latin meta for the whole game then!
Would this turn Arabic or Chinese into the meta though? Chinese (at least if we include all the dialects, which of course all use the same written language) and Arabic were much more widely spoken than Latin or Greek.

There needs to be some sort of bonus to using a domestic language for multiple purposes rather than just swapping over. This would help with smaller languages- where I imagine local religions might provide a bit more overlap.
 
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So if you spread French a ton, then swapping liturgical to french makes sense.
How would you swap the liturgical language? Are they not tied to religions?
 
How would you swap the liturgical language? Are they not tied to religions?
Protestantism will allow for the swapping of religious languages- one of the big motivators on a practical level for the protestant reformation was to swap over from Latin to vernacular languages. While France stayed Catholic, they could form a French protestant church that swaps to French. I know the French had the Hugoenots, but I don't know what their precepts were, and thus if they used French as their clerical language.
 
Protestantism will allow for the swapping of religious languages- one of the big motivators on a practical level for the protestant reformation was to swap over from Latin to vernacular languages. While France stayed Catholic, they could form a French protestant church that swaps to French. I know the French had the Hugoenots, but I don't know what their precepts were, and thus if they used French as their clerical language.
Right - but this could only be done with Protestantism, correct?