Sorry forgott the Slaves and the FinnsOriginally posted by Maur13
Well, not only Scandinavian and German, Slavonic too
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Of course there are, the vikings raided Welsh more than ocassionally and that usually leaves at least some "blond" genes
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Originally posted by Janbalk
Of course there are, the vikings raided Welsh more than ocassionally and that usually leaves at least some "blond" genes
You Swedes will breed with anyone won't you.
You'll notice much of this is from our own research or interests. I was "taught" that it was Columbus who first discovered the Americas in school-I doubt that's significantly changed.
Even if I did tend to refer to him as "Don Cristobal Colon" in at least one essay! Pedantic, eh?
Even if I did tend to refer to him as "Don Cristobal Colon" in at least one essay! Pedantic, eh?
Strange Swedish breeding habits need not apply
They didn't do much of the viking raiding anyway; busy trading with the Byzantines.
Of course there were blond-haired Welsh/Celts, but there probably weren't many blond vikings at the time of the raids, being relatively new arrivals to Scandinavia. The Welsh have been in Northern Europe much longer than the Norwegians, after all.
But as for the Mandans: When did the first settlers come across them? If it was in the 18th century or so, it seems more likely that in the 16th century a group of Welsh people sailed to the New World, traveled deep into the interior, got lost, and mixed with the locals.
There were lots of reports of people going off to start colonies and never being heard from again. . .
They didn't do much of the viking raiding anyway; busy trading with the Byzantines.
Of course there were blond-haired Welsh/Celts, but there probably weren't many blond vikings at the time of the raids, being relatively new arrivals to Scandinavia. The Welsh have been in Northern Europe much longer than the Norwegians, after all.
But as for the Mandans: When did the first settlers come across them? If it was in the 18th century or so, it seems more likely that in the 16th century a group of Welsh people sailed to the New World, traveled deep into the interior, got lost, and mixed with the locals.
There were lots of reports of people going off to start colonies and never being heard from again. . .
Re: Strange Swedish breeding habits need not apply
Do not know what coloring the old welsh had since I know almost nothing about them.
Living in northern Europe do not automatically give you blond hair, the sami peolpe (aka the laps) have been living to the north of the scandinavias for as long as anyone care to remeber and they still have fewer blondes tha scadinavians.
From the top of my head i think we(scandinavians, now danes, norwegians and swedes) have been here for rather many thousands years and about as long as the celts lived in Welsh. Also think that most description of vikings described them as blond or redheaded (if they at all cared to remeber hair color).
Do not know what coloring the old welsh had since I know almost nothing about them.
Living in northern Europe do not automatically give you blond hair, the sami peolpe (aka the laps) have been living to the north of the scandinavias for as long as anyone care to remeber and they still have fewer blondes tha scadinavians.
The viking riaded great brittain a lot and the languages there got a lot effected by the vikings. So some words in swedish is probobly pure welsh and that might explain why some words were in pure welsh but not the entire language.
Almost wiped out?
Would that mean that there might be some poeple left who's bones wouldn't have to be dug up in order to do genetic testing?
As for modern Scandinavians, I was always under the impression that they were some of the germanic tribes (Goths?, Vandals?) living as farmers on the russian steppe when Attila, and and his hordes of hairy horesemen made them feel the brunt of fire and arrows, and chased them west toward the declining Roman Empire. Which was some time after the Welsh had settled in Wales. However, tracing the movements of populations in classical Europe is extremely difficult at best, so disregard that if you have more up-to-date information.
Regardless of all the ethinic groups people invented (They're all really just lingustic groups; how do you tell where one ethinic group stops, and another one begins?), blond hair or blue eyes are not very uncommon in any Indo-European groups are usually taken as a sign of being Indo-European, which the Amerindians ain't. (of course, the same problem that appies to ethinic groups does here too) Low melanin levels in skin are a trait of people who've adapted to extreme northern/southern latitudes. (Pale skin is in order to absorb as much valuable-vitamin-D producing sunlight as possible, away from a dark, cloudy environment it's is a serious disadvantage as UV rays it burn it easily) Why the low melanin levels carry over into the eyes, and hair of
many IEs in northern climbs is anybody's guess, as there's no real advantage or disadvantage to that mutation.
IIRC, Ibn Fadlan (10th century) described Norse people as being light/fair haired, and looking at him oddly for his dark hair, but he went on later to describe golden/(blonde?) hair. All the stuff I've read says that there were fewer blonds, and maybe more readheads, but there was no photography in the viking age, so it's all conjecture anyway.
Back to the OP:IIRC there was another tribe in Virginia I think that had some people with blond(e) hair in it, and that's closer to known pre-columbian settlement areas than Western North Dakota. I still can't understand how a group of ancient Welshmen/women would get to North Dakoda. Or why. The runestone in Minnesota is a bit of a streach, and the Welsh would have had a much smaller 'New-World' infrastructure than the Vikings of earlier centuries because of England knocking on their door, and not having access to Iceland, and Greenland.
Welsh and Viking words being exchanged is an interesting concept, but I don't think the Vikings were there long enough to do anything other than raiding, and Danelaw was on the other side of the island. (Would you exchange words with them? Try these: Betws y Coed "Betus-uh-COYD", gallu "Gack-ley", or Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch )
And check out the Cheif's name: Lo Jordan. Is that the name they found him with, or did he change it after contact with the settlers?
These people are very interesting. Does anyone have anymore information or links about them?
And while you're there: What about those South American mummies with traces of lotus in them, or the Egyptian ones with traces of cocaine?
Were the Olmecs and Egyptians swapping drugs?
Would that mean that there might be some poeple left who's bones wouldn't have to be dug up in order to do genetic testing?
As for modern Scandinavians, I was always under the impression that they were some of the germanic tribes (Goths?, Vandals?) living as farmers on the russian steppe when Attila, and and his hordes of hairy horesemen made them feel the brunt of fire and arrows, and chased them west toward the declining Roman Empire. Which was some time after the Welsh had settled in Wales. However, tracing the movements of populations in classical Europe is extremely difficult at best, so disregard that if you have more up-to-date information.
Regardless of all the ethinic groups people invented (They're all really just lingustic groups; how do you tell where one ethinic group stops, and another one begins?), blond hair or blue eyes are not very uncommon in any Indo-European groups are usually taken as a sign of being Indo-European, which the Amerindians ain't. (of course, the same problem that appies to ethinic groups does here too) Low melanin levels in skin are a trait of people who've adapted to extreme northern/southern latitudes. (Pale skin is in order to absorb as much valuable-vitamin-D producing sunlight as possible, away from a dark, cloudy environment it's is a serious disadvantage as UV rays it burn it easily) Why the low melanin levels carry over into the eyes, and hair of
many IEs in northern climbs is anybody's guess, as there's no real advantage or disadvantage to that mutation.
IIRC, Ibn Fadlan (10th century) described Norse people as being light/fair haired, and looking at him oddly for his dark hair, but he went on later to describe golden/(blonde?) hair. All the stuff I've read says that there were fewer blonds, and maybe more readheads, but there was no photography in the viking age, so it's all conjecture anyway.
Back to the OP:IIRC there was another tribe in Virginia I think that had some people with blond(e) hair in it, and that's closer to known pre-columbian settlement areas than Western North Dakota. I still can't understand how a group of ancient Welshmen/women would get to North Dakoda. Or why. The runestone in Minnesota is a bit of a streach, and the Welsh would have had a much smaller 'New-World' infrastructure than the Vikings of earlier centuries because of England knocking on their door, and not having access to Iceland, and Greenland.
Welsh and Viking words being exchanged is an interesting concept, but I don't think the Vikings were there long enough to do anything other than raiding, and Danelaw was on the other side of the island. (Would you exchange words with them? Try these: Betws y Coed "Betus-uh-COYD", gallu "Gack-ley", or Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
)And check out the Cheif's name: Lo Jordan. Is that the name they found him with, or did he change it after contact with the settlers?
These people are very interesting. Does anyone have anymore information or links about them?
And while you're there: What about those South American mummies with traces of lotus in them, or the Egyptian ones with traces of cocaine?
Were the Olmecs and Egyptians swapping drugs?
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There was a new theory a few years ago based on excavations in the eastern part of the USA. It said a group of Iberians actually came to North America before any of the peoples who crossed the Bering Straight. They were eventually snuffed out by the ancestors of the American Indians. This, of course, rankled a lot of anthropologists in the USA, as well as American Indian groups.
There is also a theory (based on excavations on the Pacific coast of the Americas) that people arrived via Polynesia before the Bering Strait crossings. Of course, these theories make it all the more important for scientists to be able to examine ancient remains like those of "Kennewick Man" to attempt to determine the truth.
Yes, the Kennewick man is important. I believe they found him next to a freeway. I'm all for the research because I 've always found it interesting. The Ice man is fascinating too.
IIRC the Welsh aren't ethnicaly Celts! Sure their entire culture is celtic, but recent DNA sampling showed them to be more closely related with that mysterious people: the Basque(sp?).
Entirely believable-the Celtic migrations spread into the British Isles from the East, as did the later Roman and Anglo-Saxon incursions. So you probably have at least two waves of Britano-Celtic refugees overlaid on a pre-Celtic remnant population.
This thread reminds me of my two favourite trivia questions, that no American so far has known the answer to:
1/ Which currently inhabited US city is the oldest ?
2/ Which is the only US state, no part of which was ever owned by any foreign power ? I'm excluding Amerind nations from counting as foreign for the sake of clarity.
1/ Which currently inhabited US city is the oldest ?
2/ Which is the only US state, no part of which was ever owned by any foreign power ? I'm excluding Amerind nations from counting as foreign for the sake of clarity.
I'm a small part Am. Indian(1/16). The Indian of Am. is mostly in denial. They(winers/deniers), think that anything that questions their heritage is going to kill their culture. All cultures have past evils, the Am. Indian is no different. Why must this fact be denied?
Now to the issue Trooper brought up. I was never taught about Leif Erickson(Sp?), until high school.
Now to the issue Trooper brought up. I was never taught about Leif Erickson(Sp?), until high school.
What if Europeans were here first but were wiped out by later peoples we now know as Native Americans/Canadians? Does this mean they have no more rights to the land than anyone else? They certainly can't claim that they won the land by victory as this would work against them now. I can see why they do not want any other history than the one that allows them to make us feel guilty.
Re: Almost wiped out?
The peoples of Scandinavia have lived in their present countries for about 4000 years. There have not been any great migrations into Scandinavia since then until the closing years of the last millenium. As for the Goths living on the steppe, that was not their original home.
The peoples of Scandinavia have lived in their present countries for about 4000 years. There have not been any great migrations into Scandinavia since then until the closing years of the last millenium. As for the Goths living on the steppe, that was not their original home.
2) I would say Hawaii, as far as I known they have neverd been owned by anyone except themselves or US.
1) I would guess on Honolulu.
The Am. Indians who refuse that they lost the war, are still fighting it. In order for the tribes to survive they must move on, and find a new way to live. I abhor casinos. Casinos perpetuate Indian stereotypes. The best thing for the Am. Indian, imo, is to take advantage of the current advantages built into the system, and excel in school. Living as the whites, does not mean throwing away ones culture. This is something that the Indian can not accept, and as a consequence the reason for Am. Indians current socio-politico circumstances.
I agree that the Native Ams should use the advantages they have in the system. Nothing will ensure their culture survives like having the economic means to do so. There are many different cultures in NA that have not been assimilated, they have added to the cutural mix. As for casinos, I have never figured out how this is part of their culture. Did Cabot come over and find a casino when he landed or something? Here they want to fish year round because it is their right but they want to use modern fishing vessels that destroy the fish stocks without concern for conservation.