Lost link between trade and inventions

[IsaacCAT]

Trade was very important for the diffussion of ideas and innovations.

The game does not reflect on this and for research efficiency only looks at internal factors:

• citizens and nobles vs all integrated pops ratio
• Own researchers skills and traits

We could say that with more citizens and nobles you have more trade routes and there you have the missing link.

However, what if all trades where domestic? How ideas from other cultures/nations will get through?

I would like research efficiency to be affected by the quality of trade routes. That is, having trade routes with diverse and far away countries will give you more research efficiency than domestic or single nation trade routes.

The cum laude will be that high advanced nations will spread knowledge with trading partners, helping them in their more advanced areas and not others. You will actively seek to trade with high advanced nations.

 

[Nostalgium]

I agree with the sentiment, but I think it'd also need to simulate that in a sufficiently vast empire, new ideas can originate and diseminate from different regions internally in that Empire. Maybe something that could reflect on trade from region to region, so that you'd want to import from advanced nations or more advanced parts of your own Empire. Though I'm far from sure how you'd implement that - it'd probably need to come with a look at tech implementation and civ values.

 

[Ingor]

The trade rework must be massive, because the current system is bad, but I don't really know how they can add more link between tech and trade. The spreading of new ideas is represented in EU4 with the spreading of institutions, do you know the system ? Would it be good like this maybe ?

 

[IsaacCAT]

I know institutions. But I feel this period of time is not that clear how institutions where spread to model a system like in EUIV.

 

[Nostalgium]

The biggest problem though, after some more reflection, would be a gameplay one I think. Currently, Inventions allows you to spec your nation and create different paths for different gameplay styles very well, but if you spread it to allow - for example - faster or easier acquisitions of technological innovations, you could end up in a situation where it becomes easier to get everything.

I still support the idea being trade and innovation being linked - trade has always spread ideas as well as goods - I'm just not sure how you'd implement it in the current tech system.

 

[olivenkranz]

What if there were "ideas" or "innovations" (i.e like the wheel f.ex) that you could discover/trade for (or random chance of getting through trading) and/or find in the tech tree? These could unlock or improve pre existing actions in the game. A tribe would have less of these obviously. These ideas/innovations (would probably need another name) be in the style of the plough, the wheel etc that each nation either knows, has heard about or doesnt know about.

 

[IsaacCAT]

The biggest problem though, after some more reflection, would be a gameplay one I think. Currently, Inventions allows you to spec your nation and create different paths for different gameplay styles very well, but if you spread it to allow - for example - faster or easier acquisitions of technological innovations, you could end up in a situation where it becomes easier to get everything.

I still support the idea being trade and innovation being linked - trade has always spread ideas as well as goods - I'm just not sure how you'd implement it in the current tech system.

I was thinking on the opposite. To make inventions less frequent if you do not have the quality trades, i.e., research efficiency will never get to the max if you do not have enough quality trades.

With the trading system as it is, trades are static and it is very difficult to change your trades.

Gameplay in 2.1 should involve dynamic trade where you can influence nations to trade with you and stop trading their surpluses to other nations.

How this will work?

• Trade will existe outside the nations, all surplus goods will be known for nations in the same trade reach, the available and the used ones. This could be a list of surplus goods traded from one nation to another.
• The player will have actions to gain available and surplus goods from other nations, like influence in Victoria II to get nations in your sphere, you could spend influence to get some trades. The others will be automatically filled. You will only be notified when an influenced surplus good is achieved or lost, so you can decide to which province it is assigned, to influence another surplus good or to put more influence on that specific surplus good if that suits you.
• The objectives to spend influence on certain surplus goods will be diverse:
  • to gain certain surplus goods
  • maximise your research efficiency by trading with a nation more advanced than yours, no matter the surplus good traded
  • deny trades to your enemy

The key to make this work without being too cumbersome, is to have a limited influence points that you could spend. Thus, the players will be playing for a limited number of surplus goods and not all goods in the game.

In this system, one has to imagine that trade is not in your hands, provinces will have trade routes set without your intervention, and you will only decide the ones you spend influence points and you win. For example, you can find yourself investing influence into your own produced surplus good because it is being traded away to another nation and you want to keep it domestic.

Influence points for trade could be another currency or PI. However, ports and other trade infraestructures should give more trade influence points to the player.

 

[Saladin87]

For the time period in question, a system of institution will not be realistic. I think in this game whatever feature or mechanic is introduced, it should have some historical ground to fit in. I do agree that trade and diplomacy had a huge role to play when it came to spread of tech and ideas, specially during this time. A system that incorporates this effect is not impossible I think, some thoughts below,
- Trading with a nation which has superior tech levels or has key tech unlocked could provide benefits in terms of slight bonus to the nation's tech investment or events that provide outright breakthroughs on certain tech in the lines of "Our traders have gathered extensive knowledge of a tech A while travelling through nation B. We can use this knowledge to implement it ourselves in X months, if we invest Y gold and Z manpower. If we assign character John Doe to this mission, 20% chance of success based on relevant skill".
- Nations could buy / sell tech for steep prices in terms of gold / manpower / stability / diplomatic reputation (stab and diplo hit maybe because buying or selling tech could be seen as a sign of weakness in the nation, unless certain laws allow it) or even barter it for help in a war or protection against a foe. This actually happened in those times I think, kings used to gift scholars or inventions to others to gain favors or simply boast. Availability of tech for purchase or sale based on civ level of the countries in question. An extremely low civ level nation may not purchase higher tier tech upto a certain level, same rule goes for selling very high tier tech to nation with too low civ level.
- Characters undertaking "Espionage" mission in a nation with superior tech levels could steal tech or help in tech advancement. Availability of tech to steal constrained by nation civ level as above.
- Nations could sign a diplomatic agreement between themselves to exchange / assist in certain tech advancement to gain some bonuses.
- A nation could recruit / steal researcher from another nation and he could come with a set of inventions he could instantly unlock or add progress to, for example, "John Doe has managed to bring his notes / scriptures / prototypes that he was working on or invented, he can incorporate one of these to our glorious nation, choose between military (depending on researcher type) tech A, B or C.

 

[Synen]

I'm just thinking out loud but maybe there should be a merchant pop type. It would have been the merchants and traders who traveled to far away places where they would have come across new ideas and inventions and brought those back with them.

A similar case could be made for hostages and diplomats. For example, while being a hostage Philip II of Macedon was influenced by the latest of Theban and Athenian military innovations which he later improved upon when he reformed the Macedonian army.

 

[Nostalgium]

I'm just thinking out loud but maybe there should be a merchant pop type. It would have been the merchants and traders who traveled to far away places where they would have come across new ideas and inventions and brought those back with them.

A similar case could be made for hostages and diplomats. For example, while being a hostage Philip II of Macedon was influenced by the latest of Theban and Athenian military innovations which he later improved upon when he reformed the Macedonian army.

I agree on the hostages bit, not so much the pop type. Trading pops are simulated by higher strata creating trade routes, and I doubt there were enough travelling merchants to warrant a whole new pop type. I can't think of any city - no, not even Venice - where a significant percentage of the populace were actual, travelling merchants. You don't need that many merchants to run one galley, say. If you had a trade fleet of some 50 ships all based in one city, you didn't really need more than 50 merchants either - the rest of it would be infrastructure. Clerks, labourers, security, and goods peddlers in the local city.

 

[Bovrick]

I'm just thinking out loud but maybe there should be a merchant pop type. It would have been the merchants and traders who traveled to far away places where they would have come across new ideas and inventions and brought those back with them.

We have that Pop type, they're called Citizens.

 

[Nostalgium]

We have that Pop type, they're called Citizens.

In that way, could we even say that this is already abstracted? Citizens and nobles create science, but they also create trade - who is to say that they're not getting that science from the ideas their sponsored merchants bring home?

Of course, I still agree with the gist of this suggestion that trading with advanced regions like Alexandria should matter more than trading with, oh, say, Caledonia.

 

[Bovrick]

In that way, could we even say that this is already abstracted? Citizens and nobles create science, but they also create trade - who is to say that they're not getting that science from the ideas their sponsored merchants bring home?

Of course, I still agree with the gist of this suggestion that trading with advanced regions like Alexandria should matter more than trading with, oh, say, Caledonia.

Yep, you can't gain trade without Research points and vice versa. The question of who you're trading with could theoretically matter too, but

1. Trade is so far from a good place that I'm not remotely interested in tweaking the current form
2. Innovations are using a per-tag model common for games, so it's also a gamey system with all of those flaws (repeated "discovery", masses of knowledge lost depending on who owns a territory). If you want a diffusion model, you'd tie it to Pops and have fewer innovations. As it is only recently changed, and used to be the gameplay shaping mechanic, I don't see that changing at all from now on.

 

[Saladin87]

I'm just thinking out loud but maybe there should be a merchant pop type. It would have been the merchants and traders who traveled to far away places where they would have come across new ideas and inventions and brought those back with them.

A similar case could be made for hostages and diplomats. For example, while being a hostage Philip II of Macedon was influenced by the latest of Theban and Athenian military innovations which he later improved upon when he reformed the Macedonian army.

As Nostalgium said, agree with hostage bit but trader pop already exist as citizens. However, I'd like to point out that there needs to be some sort of character involvement in the trade and diplomacy areas. A character could be put in charge of trade + diplomacy with a certain nation, the character could be in a semi-automatic role needing minimum player attention but interactable so as to agree / increase / decrease trade, steal tech, negotiate peace or declare war, etc. Diplo skill of character may add a bonus to acceptance of a deal. This will make the game so much more fun imo. For example, how awesome would it be if there was an event when declaring war that our diplomat has been killed by the rash / aggressive enemy ruler.

The character could even be in charge of a trade fleet or caravan. I want to see living trade routes and feel the need to protect my realm from pirates / bandits / barbarians disrupting the sea and land routes. The routes on land and seas can be modeled based on borders. Possibility of having a successful route can depend on target nation being behind a hostile bordering nation or hostile seas. This will make the diplomacy and trade so much fun.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Trade is so far from a good place that I'm not remotely interested in tweaking the current form

Alas, incremental change is the only thing we will get if any.

What do you think about outsourcing all trade and allowing the nation to bet on some surplus goods using trade influence points?

No major divergence from where we stand but a great gameplay change. In this case, having a research plus to trade with certain nations is a different motivation to spend your influence points besides getting a surplus good.

 

[Nostalgium]

I love building road networks. They're so pretty. If they ended up becoming a kind of roadmap for trade routes, with important trade cities growing along them, I'd be over the moon. If they added something similar for charting shipping lanes, oh man, I don't even know how much time I'd spend just building up my Empire's infrastructure.

 

[IsaacCAT]

I love building road networks. They're so pretty. If they ended up becoming a kind of roadmap for trade routes, with important trade cities growing along them, I'd be over the moon. If they added something similar for charting shipping lanes, oh man, I don't even know how much time I'd spend just building up my Empire's infrastructure.

Without drawing trade routes nor shipping lanes, investing in trade infraestructure should give nations trade influence points.

In order to be granted monthly trade influence points it will not be enough to build roads to nowhere. You will have to link cities with as much pops as possible to get the most trade influence points. For ports, you should build them to top level and trade influence points will be proportional to the province total Pops.

To entice players to get this trade influence points, trade has to do more than some bonuses in your provinces. Thus the research cap.

But I think the competition between nations for trades with the influence trade points will be the best selling point to players.

 

[Saladin87]

I love building road networks. They're so pretty. If they ended up becoming a kind of roadmap for trade routes, with important trade cities growing along them, I'd be over the moon. If they added something similar for charting shipping lanes, oh man, I don't even know how much time I'd spend just building up my Empire's infrastructure.

If you guys have played Total War games, in Rome and Rome 2 particularly, the trade system is extremely basic but it does work tbh. It just feels sensible to negotiate a trade deal with another nation and it's realistic. In the current system, say if you're Rome and you just annexed half of Macedon, you can still trade goods with them like nothing happened, that's just funny. The current system could adopt some parts from TW, for example you first send a diplomat character to negotiate a trade deal, if it's Egypt then send your daughter for marriage as well , agree on which goods to buy / sell to suit your surplus needs, i.e. buy more of what you want as surplus and don't sell those which surplus you wish to keep or do the math and agree accordingly. Then you could get more bonuses to that trade deal by building roads to the relevant border or port, building trade ships and creating a trade route by assigning the diplomat/trader character as admiral. Your military fleet or legions could patrol the routes, to prevent pirates / bandits that may spawn and generating military experience in the process. I think it would be a brilliant way to let your military fleet do SOMETHING for a change! I'm sure you've noticed that your fleet do absolutely NOTHING during peacetime. The fleet apparently have an experience system but it's absolutely meaningless because you can't drill them or do anything else to increase their experience. I really hope this is addressed asap.

 

[Saladin87]

The number of nations you can trade with without taking penalties to commerce income could be determined by the number of high tier ports, marketplaces or trade fleet you have. This way ports and marketplaces will have more use. Ports in particular are extremely useless as they are right now.

 

[IsaacCAT]

The number of nations you can trade with without taking penalties to commerce income could be determined by the number of high tier ports, marketplaces or trade fleet you have. This way ports and marketplaces will have more use. Ports in particular are extremely useless as they are right now.

Will this reflect that trade infraestructure gives less taxes if overwhelmed?

Limiting the number of nations due to trade infraestructure is arbitrary and not helpful for small nations playing tall.